Lord Olleus said:
Make sure the following techs are already discovered:
- Mysticism
- Meditation
- Polytheism
- Priesthood
- Code of Laws
The next Great Priest will offer to teach you part of civil service.
CS Slingshot, is it worth it?
- Thread starter sigmakan
- Start date
Make sure the following techs are already discovered:
The next Great Priest will offer to teach you part of civil service.
I usually build the oracle to get metal casting..The Keeper
Warlord
The biggest risk is how wide open you leave yourself.
On monarch, you cannot make any diversions from the quickest path if you hope to accomplish it. That means you have:
Agriculture/Fishing
Pottery
Writing
Mysticism
Meditation
Priesthood
Code of Laws
This means no Bronze Working, No Archery. Your only defense is warriors. If you get some early barbs or are next to Montazuma, there is a good chance you will not suceed. Some say go for Bronze Working for the chop. But I usually find that it is not the production but the research that is slowing me down.
On monarch, you cannot make any diversions from the quickest path if you hope to accomplish it. That means you have:
Agriculture/Fishing
Pottery
Writing
Mysticism
Meditation
Priesthood
Code of Laws
This means no Bronze Working, No Archery. Your only defense is warriors. If you get some early barbs or are next to Montazuma, there is a good chance you will not suceed. Some say go for Bronze Working for the chop. But I usually find that it is not the production but the research that is slowing me down.
pigswill
fly (one day)
If you go for oracle and great prophet route then its (depending on starting techs) mysticism, polytheism or meditation,priesthood, start oracle, writing. If you get build oracle after writing you get code of laws.Once you've got CoL you get meditation or polytheism (whichever you missed), avoid masonry and research anything you want (except alphabet?) while waiting for prophet to burn for much of civil service. You should be able to fit some military and worker techs in there somewhere.
Lord Chambers
Emperor
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- Nov 23, 2001
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- 1,004
Is it worth it?
The CS Slingshot is to Civ4 what the Hailmary is to American Football. You have to spend a long time setting up if you're gonna try and rely on it for a touchdown. Even then, a good play by the other team and it's all a waste. It's such a long shot in fact, that you're a stupid coach if you actually try to against competant opponents.
Warfare is like the running game. You use it to grind you way to a win. It's not fancy or spectacular, but it almost always works, and it's the foundation of a strong game.
Don't be a nub. Expand. That's the only strat you need to know. And while you're expanding out, expand up too. Don't stop expanding just because the land around your cities is occupied by other Civs.
The CS Slingshot is to Civ4 what the Hailmary is to American Football. You have to spend a long time setting up if you're gonna try and rely on it for a touchdown. Even then, a good play by the other team and it's all a waste. It's such a long shot in fact, that you're a stupid coach if you actually try to against competant opponents.
Warfare is like the running game. You use it to grind you way to a win. It's not fancy or spectacular, but it almost always works, and it's the foundation of a strong game.
Don't be a nub. Expand. That's the only strat you need to know. And while you're expanding out, expand up too. Don't stop expanding just because the land around your cities is occupied by other Civs.
The slingshot is not a long shot. In fact, it's practically guaranteed if you put any reasonable amount of effort into it at all, even up to Monarch level. The Prophet path always works. No one can beat you to using a prophet.
You can work both the Oracle plan and the Prophet plan simultaneously. If they both work you really get to slingshot ahead. If you need to rush the Oracle to keep someone from beating you to it, you can still get a good tech out of it and use the Prophet.
I use it consistently on Monarch and regularly make it to CoL first and pop a Prophet on CS even if I never begin to build the Oracle.
The real question of "is it worth it" has nothing to do with the risk of failing or really even of losing the race. It's a question of whether the lost opportunities from the required tech beeline is worth it and that question depends on a lot of variables. Most notably, it depends a lot on your intended strategy.
You can work both the Oracle plan and the Prophet plan simultaneously. If they both work you really get to slingshot ahead. If you need to rush the Oracle to keep someone from beating you to it, you can still get a good tech out of it and use the Prophet.
I use it consistently on Monarch and regularly make it to CoL first and pop a Prophet on CS even if I never begin to build the Oracle.
The real question of "is it worth it" has nothing to do with the risk of failing or really even of losing the race. It's a question of whether the lost opportunities from the required tech beeline is worth it and that question depends on a lot of variables. Most notably, it depends a lot on your intended strategy.
DaviddesJ
Deity
nealhunt said:
This doesn't make sense, unless you're cheating. How can you know in advance whether someone is going to beat you to the Oracle? You only know how far along when they build it, and then it's too late for you to retroactively rush it.
pigswill
fly (one day)
It seems to me very level dependent. At settler/warlord you're learning the basics so slingshots may be somewhat esoteric. At noble/prince level slingshots are a good way of stealinga lead on the AI. I haven't played monarch or higher, the impression I get is that at more difficult levels you're too busy fighting to draw level at the start of the game to have time to build wonders and its likely that you'd lose a straight wonder race anyway. So in answer to the OP I'd say at noble or prince yes, at monarch maybe, any higher probably no.
Shoot the Moon
Playing World in Conflict
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- 708
Depending on the level and my confidence in not getting beaten to the Oracle, I will put alphabet into my tech path and then trade for the worker techs. So my tech path would look like:
Mysticism>Budhism or Polyiethism>Priesthood>Writing>Alphabet>CoL
Mysticism>Budhism or Polyiethism>Priesthood>Writing>Alphabet>CoL
GoodSarmatian
Jokerfied Western Male
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
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- 9,408
The Keeper said:
I almost always research BW before Mysticism when I try a CS slingshot.
Chop/pop rush Stonehenge (for Great Prophets)
Research Polytheism and/or Meditation, Priesthood and Writing (You'll research Writing faster if you already have Priesthood, the Libraries come after Stonehenge and Oracle)
Chop/pop rush Oracle
Take CoL as a free tech.
Wait for Prophet (meanwhile build libraries and courthouses and research Metal Casting and Machinery)
Onslaught.
Edit: This works on Monarch. The Prophet won't give you Civil Service, but you will get about 80% - 90% of the beakers, so research time will be down to five from fifty turns.
theimmortal1
Prince
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- Apr 25, 2006
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- 539
Lord Chambers, you are correct, a normal military rush is probably a best bet. Thats if you want a guaranteed victory though.
I play the high difficulties, not deity though, but I want high scores. Just winning isn't enough. Anyone can easily get a space race victory if they really wanted to.
High scores require quick victories, and therefore tech advantages. Therefore, CS slingshot isn't a bad bet.
Even on Monarch you can easily work your way up to writing, starting with BW first. Then after that move onto alphabet while getting COL with the Oracle. Backtrade for the worker techs you missed. You should still be able to settle a couple cities. Yes you won't have the best military right away, but you'll be able to really crank out military quickly at that point with a couple cities, plus you'll have the wonders, which can you get you theocracy + more XP.
Early war isn't the key, dominating wars are the key. You need to be able to wipe the dust with your opponent and be able to move onto someone else. If you spend the first millenia building an army just to kill one AI while every other AI settles just as much land as you'll have you will be toast.
I play the high difficulties, not deity though, but I want high scores. Just winning isn't enough. Anyone can easily get a space race victory if they really wanted to.
High scores require quick victories, and therefore tech advantages. Therefore, CS slingshot isn't a bad bet.
Even on Monarch you can easily work your way up to writing, starting with BW first. Then after that move onto alphabet while getting COL with the Oracle. Backtrade for the worker techs you missed. You should still be able to settle a couple cities. Yes you won't have the best military right away, but you'll be able to really crank out military quickly at that point with a couple cities, plus you'll have the wonders, which can you get you theocracy + more XP.
Early war isn't the key, dominating wars are the key. You need to be able to wipe the dust with your opponent and be able to move onto someone else. If you spend the first millenia building an army just to kill one AI while every other AI settles just as much land as you'll have you will be toast.
GoodSarmatian
Jokerfied Western Male
- Joined
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- 9,408
Shoot the Moon said:
To quote a former foreign minister and vice chancelor: "I am not convinced".
Early worker techs will speed up you initial expansion and wonder-building. It is better to delay Alphabet, the AI seems to neglect it always (except Gandhi for some reason).
What level do you play ?
GoodSarmatian
Jokerfied Western Male
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theimmortal1 said:
I had to learn this the hard way in one of my first Monarch games.
With my focus solely on military I fought wars with axes and swords in 1000AD...
OK, was the tech leader on my continent as I was able to slow down my rival's progress (and doing some pointy-stick-research).
But when the guys from the other continents came along...
patrickkrebs
Warlord
Same thing happened to me they put Germany on a peninsula w/ my borders blocking him in. I thook the other two civs on my continent with no problems, but when the 2nd continent came calling they were a generation ahead of my technologically. It took all I had to fend them off and catch up.
I think one of the components to a good working world in a tough game of civ is to not try to dominate everyone. I think you need to wipe one of your neighbors off the map to get a strong advantage, but you also need to use your neighbors to collaborate especially when the new world comes calling.
Of course if your playing terra and there are no civs in the new world, kill as many of your neighbors as possible.
On harder levels war is so difficult a good strategy is just to relax and collaborate with as many civs as is possible.
Also don't be afraid to pit one neighbor against another. They dont usually draw you into the conflict and if they do your enemy will face a two front war.
I think one of the components to a good working world in a tough game of civ is to not try to dominate everyone. I think you need to wipe one of your neighbors off the map to get a strong advantage, but you also need to use your neighbors to collaborate especially when the new world comes calling.
Of course if your playing terra and there are no civs in the new world, kill as many of your neighbors as possible.
On harder levels war is so difficult a good strategy is just to relax and collaborate with as many civs as is possible.
Also don't be afraid to pit one neighbor against another. They dont usually draw you into the conflict and if they do your enemy will face a two front war.
DaviddesJ said:
It's just a guess based on the time in the game. Most wonders tend to pop about the same point in time as long as your settings are in the same ballpark. OTOH, the point at which you can start building it will vary depending on your speed of expansion, commerce resources, etc.. So, you take a guess based on timeline versus how long it will take you to build it.
IIRC, Oracle typically pops around 500BC or so, but to be honest I so rarely even try the Oracle path any more that I'm very likely mistaken.
Stolen Rutters
Deity
Let me get this straight... The CS slingshot is...
You build Oracle to get CoL (I actually did this before as it is the recommended tech in the free list almost every time I build it), avoid masonry, and your first Prophet will give you Civil Service (CS)??? With Macemen??? Before everyone has a chance to get their feet wet??? Woah... Macemen???
I just learned the pop-rush the Axemen strategy... Macemen???
Currently playing epic Prince
You build Oracle to get CoL (I actually did this before as it is the recommended tech in the free list almost every time I build it), avoid masonry, and your first Prophet will give you Civil Service (CS)??? With Macemen??? Before everyone has a chance to get their feet wet??? Woah... Macemen???
I just learned the pop-rush the Axemen strategy... Macemen???Currently playing epic Prince
pigswill
fly (one day)
Stolen Rutters: The fly in the ointment is you still need machinery for maces, CS slingshot gets you half way to maces; it also gets you bureaucracy and chain irrigation which are useful in their own right.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Actually, that's a CoL Slingshot. For a true CS Slingshot, you'd use the Oracle to get Civil Service. Tricky if not impossible on Prince and above. Which is why Oracle for CoL and a GP for CS is a preferred, more reliable route.Stolen Rutters said:Let me get this straight... The CS slingshot is...
You build Oracle to get CoL (I actually did this before as it is the recommended tech in the free list almost every time I build it), avoid masonry, and your first Prophet will give you Civil Service (CS)??? With Macemen??? Before everyone has a chance to get their feet wet??? Woah... Macemen???
Currently playing epic Prince
Stolen Rutters
Deity
OK, so we don't actually get maces straightaway from CS, but you get much closer much quicker. Sisiutil, thanks for straightening up the terminology. The thread got away from me by the time I got to the bottom and I was not following whether the slingshot came from the oracle or from the Prophet, or both. The spreading irrigation and bureaucracy is quite useful.
I actually like the CoL slingshot. I already figured out that getting CoL from Oracle was quite a big boost, but I had never targeted it specifically. It just came up a few times playing my normal grow-empire-and-learn style game.
I actually like the CoL slingshot. I already figured out that getting CoL from Oracle was quite a big boost, but I had never targeted it specifically. It just came up a few times playing my normal grow-empire-and-learn style game.
I've not made a significant effort at a level higher than Prince yet, but so far I've always gone for the slingshot and always been very pleased with the results. However, I think I may do it a little unusually. I play Catherine (the creative/financial combination is perfect for maxing out early beakers), make sure I get a start with at least two floodplains (or a food resource by a river - that's even better, in fact) so that my capital will rapidly grow to three or four and then I make three workers followed by three settlers. The maintainence cost may seem like a problem, but it's usually low enough as long as I settle close that I can run for a while off of results from goody huts and the increased commerce from the other cities more than makes up for it. I only skip fishing if there are no clam/crab/fish resources or fresh water and masonry if there's no marble/stone. The workers chop each other and the settlers unless making an improvement is faster and then they can make cottages on the floodplains and mine any hills around. I've hit it as early as 1000 BC on Prince and I then research towards military tradition, after which I secure a win with cossacks. I don't think this would be possible - at least at the speed to make cossacks unstoppable - without successfully hitting the slingshot.
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