ct3 - Chieftain Training Day (for newbies only)
- Thread starter Chieftess
- Start date
BoBtheBUILDER
Bonded and Certified
Tell me about it! I don't know if we've really talked much about what we do, besides Padma, but I work for the Congressman from this area and was up LATE last night.
I know that Republicans were understimating other Republicans all the way up to Election night. One of the races near us (IN 02) was a pivotal race and I know no one I knew in D.C. thought we were close to winning that one and they won it by a touchdown. Same in Colorado's Senate race. Craziness. I was out taking signs down at precinct places and got home in time to watch Carnahan's concession speech, then decided it was time to call it a night... until lil' Emma decided to wake up at 4:30 this morning. I swear kids know exactly when you most need sleep and decide that's a good time to wake up!
BoB
I know that Republicans were understimating other Republicans all the way up to Election night. One of the races near us (IN 02) was a pivotal race and I know no one I knew in D.C. thought we were close to winning that one and they won it by a touchdown. Same in Colorado's Senate race. Craziness. I was out taking signs down at precinct places and got home in time to watch Carnahan's concession speech, then decided it was time to call it a night... until lil' Emma decided to wake up at 4:30 this morning. I swear kids know exactly when you most need sleep and decide that's a good time to wake up!
BoB
Rock on Bob the B ! 
I still cannot turn off Fox News!
(But now that I am off topic will send private email instead)
Back to Game: Am glad this game is going forward - it looks like we will have a win but it is great as the cities grow to learn new strategies etc. Good luck rwprice with those last few turns - takes so long to write it all but helps us when we get to read it- at least that's my opinion.
I still cannot turn off Fox News!
(But now that I am off topic will send private email instead)
Back to Game: Am glad this game is going forward - it looks like we will have a win but it is great as the cities grow to learn new strategies etc. Good luck rwprice with those last few turns - takes so long to write it all but helps us when we get to read it- at least that's my opinion.
rwprice
Chieftain
Finally! I got through my turns and I've posted the save file. Is it just me, or is it getting tedious just moving workers around?
Anyway, here's my turn log:
Preturn, 860 AD:
Some observations:
Several cities are contributing absolutely nothing to culture.
We do not have any trade routes established yet--should we?
Turn #1, 870 AD:
Tarsus starts production of the courthouse.
Workers near Ulundi get busy building a road to the southern mines.
Workers near Babylon build roads and mines.
Turn #2, 880 AD:
Forests cleared near Hamadan
Mines and roads built near Pasargadae and Arbela
Our galley continues to move around the shoreline, looking for "breadcrumbs"
Ulundi completes the Colosseum and starts work on a courthouse to help with the corruption.
Turn #3, 890 AD:
Workers irrigate tile southwest of Gordium.
Sent workers to the hills east of Sidon to establish mines on the bonus tiles there.
Turn #4, 900 AD:
Our scientists learn the secret of gunpowder. I instruct them to research Education, then Astronomy, and finally Navigation. We really need to enhance our ability to explore the world. It's starting to cost too much, both in time and ships, to try to explore with our current capabilities.
Work begins on the courthouse in Pasargadae.
Tyre begins production of a musketman. They have the greatest potential for future upgrades, plus Tyre has no real military defenses to speak of.
Workers begin mining southeast of Ulundi.
We start clearing forests north of Babylon.
Turn #5, 910 AD:
Arbela begins production of a musketman.
Bactra begins working on a wonder, The Colossus.
Sardis begins production of a musketman.
**** Where did 920 AD go to? I'm not sure what I did with those movees. *************
Turn #6, 930 AD:
Workers begin a mine northeast of Babylon.
Susa begins work on a galley.
Ulundi starts working on a musketeer.
Antioch begins work on the colesseum.
Tarsus beings working on the cathedral.
Near Zimbabwe, we start mining the hills and clearing jungles.
Susa begins building a courthouse.
Ulundi starts work on Leo's workshop.
Antioch begins building a colosseum.
Turn #7, 940 AD:
Mines being constructed near Arbela.
Jungle being cleared near Zimbabwe.
Our galley is hugging the coast of the landmass to the southeast of us. I may establish a city near our friends the Romans.
Turn #8, 950 AD:
Tarsus begins constructing a harbor. We'll need these later to establish trading routes.
Sidon finishes her harbor and starts work on another worker.
Turn #9, 960 AD:
Arbela starts work on a colosseum.
Work begins on a gold mine west of Babylon.
Turn #10, 970 AD:
Disease strikes the city of Bapedi
Our galley continues her journey. I'm thinking about founding a city near Pompeii. I'm sure it won't go over well with our neighbors.
Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/970AD.zip
Anyway, here's my turn log:
Preturn, 860 AD:
Some observations:
Several cities are contributing absolutely nothing to culture.
We do not have any trade routes established yet--should we?
Turn #1, 870 AD:
Tarsus starts production of the courthouse.
Workers near Ulundi get busy building a road to the southern mines.
Workers near Babylon build roads and mines.
Turn #2, 880 AD:
Forests cleared near Hamadan
Mines and roads built near Pasargadae and Arbela
Our galley continues to move around the shoreline, looking for "breadcrumbs"
Ulundi completes the Colosseum and starts work on a courthouse to help with the corruption.
Turn #3, 890 AD:
Workers irrigate tile southwest of Gordium.
Sent workers to the hills east of Sidon to establish mines on the bonus tiles there.
Turn #4, 900 AD:
Our scientists learn the secret of gunpowder. I instruct them to research Education, then Astronomy, and finally Navigation. We really need to enhance our ability to explore the world. It's starting to cost too much, both in time and ships, to try to explore with our current capabilities.
Work begins on the courthouse in Pasargadae.
Tyre begins production of a musketman. They have the greatest potential for future upgrades, plus Tyre has no real military defenses to speak of.
Workers begin mining southeast of Ulundi.
We start clearing forests north of Babylon.
Turn #5, 910 AD:
Arbela begins production of a musketman.
Bactra begins working on a wonder, The Colossus.
Sardis begins production of a musketman.
**** Where did 920 AD go to? I'm not sure what I did with those movees. *************
Turn #6, 930 AD:
Workers begin a mine northeast of Babylon.
Susa begins work on a galley.
Ulundi starts working on a musketeer.
Antioch begins work on the colesseum.
Tarsus beings working on the cathedral.
Near Zimbabwe, we start mining the hills and clearing jungles.
Susa begins building a courthouse.
Ulundi starts work on Leo's workshop.
Antioch begins building a colosseum.
Turn #7, 940 AD:
Mines being constructed near Arbela.
Jungle being cleared near Zimbabwe.
Our galley is hugging the coast of the landmass to the southeast of us. I may establish a city near our friends the Romans.
Turn #8, 950 AD:
Tarsus begins constructing a harbor. We'll need these later to establish trading routes.
Sidon finishes her harbor and starts work on another worker.
Turn #9, 960 AD:
Arbela starts work on a colosseum.
Work begins on a gold mine west of Babylon.
Turn #10, 970 AD:
Disease strikes the city of Bapedi
Our galley continues her journey. I'm thinking about founding a city near Pompeii. I'm sure it won't go over well with our neighbors.
Here's the save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/970AD.zip
BoBtheBUILDER
Bonded and Certified
Your upload didn't work... it won't accept spaces as characters... you need to use the underscore mark "_" in place of spaces.
rwprice
Chieftain
Sorry guys, but I can't see why my uploaded file is not working. I got rid of the spaces, and even went to using dashes, but still nothing. I'll try again tomorrow, but if any of you can tell what I'm doing wrong, I'd appreciate the help.
rwprice
Chieftain
I changed the name to 970AD.zip and that worked. I still don't see why the old one didn't work, though. I called it ct3-870-970AD.sav. Perhaps the filename was too long. Oh well, it's there now.
Hmm, don't know what the problem with the save was, since I wasn't "here" when you were struggling with it. 
A quick first look reveals no
to my eye. (Except for the missing 920AD turn!) I really want to downoad this and have a look at the situation before I comment too deeply, and that won't be until ton^h^h^h ... tom^h^h^h ... this weeke^h^h^h^h^h ... Crap! It probably won't be until Monday! 
Real Life has me in its clutches again!
Anyway, some quick notes:
Thus the common use of the abbreviation MMOW in regular SGs - Much Movement of Workers. It is arguably the one thing that causes games to go unfinished: the mid-to-late-game doldrums. Move Workers, check Diplomacy, press Return, twiddle thumbs. Some players go nuts here and launch wars just to have something to DO!
Trade routes are also not a bad thing. But the AI needs Harbors, *and* they need to have something worthwhile to trade! Without the save I cannot answer the question fully.
That tells you something about the state of the remaining AI Civs!
Attention to detail!
Well, we *are* after a Domination/Conquest Victory, right? 
Please don't continue until I have a chance to review the save. If I can do so before Monday, I will.
A quick first look reveals no
to my eye. (Except for the missing 920AD turn!) I really want to downoad this and have a look at the situation before I comment too deeply, and that won't be until ton^h^h^h ... tom^h^h^h ... this weeke^h^h^h^h^h ... Crap! It probably won't be until Monday! Real Life has me in its clutches again!Anyway, some quick notes:
Thus the common use of the abbreviation MMOW in regular SGs - Much Movement of Workers. It is arguably the one thing that causes games to go unfinished: the mid-to-late-game doldrums. Move Workers, check Diplomacy, press Return, twiddle thumbs. Some players go nuts here and launch wars just to have something to DO!Just because we are not going for a Culture Victory doesn't mean we should neglect Culture. If a city doesn't *need* to build something else, the occasional cultural building won't be wrong.
Trade routes are also not a bad thing. But the AI needs Harbors, *and* they need to have something worthwhile to trade! Without the save I cannot answer the question fully.
It's 910AD and nobody has built the Colossus?
That tells you something about the state of the remaining AI Civs! Attention to detail! Well, we *are* after a Domination/Conquest Victory, right? Please don't continue until I have a chance to review the save. If I can do so before Monday, I will.
rwprice
Chieftain
I forgot to mention that Rome is researching the Great Library. Just thought I should point that out.
BoBtheBUILDER
Bonded and Certified
Most of you are seeing this twice, but thought I'd post it here too. Here's some photos of my daughter if you guys are interested:
Emma's Photo Album
Emma's Photo Album
stwils
Emperor
Originally posted by rwprice
Is it just me, or is it getting tedious just moving workers around?
Hello, rwprice,
YES! It is tedious moving workers around. And wondering if they should be mining or irrigating or roading.
The thread that has helped me a bit was Cracker's thread. But I will confess, it is hard for me, and I STILL have a hard time knowing the "right" thing to do with my workers.
But it seems it is something - once we get it under our belts- that will greatly improve our game. But I agree with you, it is tedious right now until it (hopefully) becomes second nature with us.
stwils
Well, I am back from my "enforced sabbatical" (running a high school bowling tournament - 74 teams over two days!) I already responded to SUL5b, as it is "easier" - I don't have to give detailed instructions and critique. This one will have to wait for tomorrow, though.
BoB, Emma is a cutie!
BoB, Emma is a cutie!
Well, at least all the workers appear to be gainfully employed! Of course, mining grasslands, and irrigating plains doesn't make much sense to me, but you guys are winning this one handily now, so it won't hurt anything.
Another thing about workers - the best way to clear jungle is with stacks of 4 or more. 2 workers just take sooooo long.
City builds don't look too bad. The wonders we're building are as much to keep the AI from getting them as anything. I would still like to see a city planted north of Bapedi, and between Bapedi & Ulundi on the coast, just to lock our continent. Probably just my paranoia.
Checking in with MapStat, for a Domination victory, we need to roughly double the land area under our control. That pretty much means wiping off the AI civs, = Conquest Victory before we hit Domination!
If you want to pick on somebody, Rome and Greece are pretty much tied, so it's a coin toss. Egypt is already out of it, and isn't worth considering at this point, unless they want to ally with us when we attack someone. But they *will* get their butt kicked. On my mental coin toss, I would go against Rome, first. But then, Greece has an island outpost near us, which we could take. Like I said, it's a toss-up.
Anyway, this one is going better than SUL5b!
Turn Order:
archer_007 >>> UP NOW
stwils >>> On Deck
BoBtheBUILDER
mcdan
rwprice
Of course, mining grasslands, and irrigating plains doesn't make much sense to me, but you guys are winning this one handily now, so it won't hurt anything. Another thing about workers - the best way to clear jungle is with stacks of 4 or more. 2 workers just take sooooo long.
City builds don't look too bad. The wonders we're building are as much to keep the AI from getting them as anything. I would still like to see a city planted north of Bapedi, and between Bapedi & Ulundi on the coast, just to lock our continent. Probably just my paranoia.
Checking in with MapStat, for a Domination victory, we need to roughly double the land area under our control. That pretty much means wiping off the AI civs, = Conquest Victory before we hit Domination!
If you want to pick on somebody, Rome and Greece are pretty much tied, so it's a coin toss. Egypt is already out of it, and isn't worth considering at this point, unless they want to ally with us when we attack someone. But they *will* get their butt kicked. On my mental coin toss, I would go against Rome, first. But then, Greece has an island outpost near us, which we could take. Like I said, it's a toss-up.
Anyway, this one is going better than SUL5b!
Turn Order:
archer_007 >>> UP NOW
stwils >>> On Deck
BoBtheBUILDER
mcdan
rwprice
rwprice
Chieftain
Hello everyone!
I really hate to do this, but I think I'm going to have to withdraw from the remainder of this succession game. I've really learned a lot, and I've enjoyed seeing your insights into this game, but I just don't have the time to devote to the game. I've already held the group up when it's been my turn, and I don't want to continue to do that. I'll still follow your progress in the forum here, but I'll no longer be a participant.
Thanks for allowing me to take part in this game--this is a great bunch of people. Maybe I'll get to do this again sometime in the future.
Good luck!
I really hate to do this, but I think I'm going to have to withdraw from the remainder of this succession game. I've really learned a lot, and I've enjoyed seeing your insights into this game, but I just don't have the time to devote to the game. I've already held the group up when it's been my turn, and I don't want to continue to do that. I'll still follow your progress in the forum here, but I'll no longer be a participant.
Thanks for allowing me to take part in this game--this is a great bunch of people. Maybe I'll get to do this again sometime in the future.
Good luck!
stwils
Emperor
Sorry to see you go, rwprice. We'll miss you.
Please stay in touch.
stwils
Please stay in touch.
stwils
BoBtheBUILDER
Bonded and Certified
Thanks for playing with us rwprice... it's been fun. We'll have to name a new city in your honor! Priceville, Pricetown, The Price is Right?
I can relate to your issues though... I think I'm definately downgrading to one SG at a time! I can't imagine what it's going to be like when we get into modern times!
BoB
I can relate to your issues though... I think I'm definately downgrading to one SG at a time! I can't imagine what it's going to be like when we get into modern times!
BoB
Sorry to see you go, rwprice. I do understand the time issue, though. We all have to make sure our Real Life commitments get the priority they deserve. This is just a game, after all!
BoB, I don't expect the game to last that long.
rwprice
Chieftain
Thanks for the kind words. When I was going through my last turns, I realized that I was trying to hurry and get them over with. That's when I realized how ridiculous that was. If I didnt' have the time to enjoy what I was doing, why do it? After all, games are supposed to be <b><i>fun</b></i>!
Thanks for the offer to build a city in my honor. How about Priceylvania? Anyway, I'll keep up with you in the forum. Kick some butt and win the game!
Thanks for the offer to build a city in my honor. How about Priceylvania?
Anyway, I'll keep up with you in the forum. Kick some butt and win the game!Hi, guys,
I happened to be looking at the last couple turns and noticed a couple things I'd like to point out. The first one is small: Padma mentions not rushing things unless you have 1 shield in the box, or it costs double. This is true. However, there is another way to get shields in the box so that you can rush on the first turn after you have built something -- you can move a unit into that city and disband it. This will give you that crucial first shield you need to be able to rush at normal rate. In fact, if you have a large surplus of units and specific needs in mind, you can disband multiple units to effectively rush something without paying the rush costs at all. This is inefficient shield-wise but does save on gold, which can be important if you are in a tech race; it's not something you are likely to do at the beginning of the game when shields are relatively scarce but is more possible towards the latter half of the game after factories, plants, and hospitals make shields quite abundant. A common use for this is when establishing a beachhead on a new continent, you might sail several ships in and use them to rush an airport, barracks, temple, etc. so that the city is secure and connected to your empire. You can use it earlier, however, if you do need to rush something and have a spare obsolete warrior or something lying around that you can afford to sacrifice.
The second point is more significant, and more important. There is an old conception out there that you should mine certain tiles and irrigate others, based on tile type. This is a FALLACY. Mostly the reasoning is based on the despotic limit of losing 1 of any resource that a tile contributes more than 2 of, but even then these rules don't always make sense. Basing the type of improvements you make on a tile on what the base tile is only makes sense in the earliest parts of the game, for the tiles you intend to use first -- especially if you are limited to size 6 due to lack of fresh water/aqueduct, and even more than that if your city is smaller than 6 due to lack of arable land or settler/worker production. Pretty much the only rule that almost always holds true here is that you should irrigate any tile that has 3 or more food to start with (i.e. flood plains or bonus food resource.) Once you hit the latter half of the ancient age, you can start looking forward to a change of government in the near future, and irrigating grass in preparation for that government change is perfectly reasonable.
The correct way to optimize what tile improvements to build is on a PER-CITY basis, not on a per-tile basis. This is important to ensure that your city has an optimal amount of both food and shields. There is no rule of thumb that will prove correct in all, or even most, situations. If all you have for a city is plains and desert, by golly you'd better irrigate that desert if you want to be able to grow your city large enough to work most of it. If you have lots of surplus food from irrigated grass or bonus food sources, don't make the AI mistake of continuing to irrigate more and more grass -- mine some hills instead, or grass if that's what's available!
Remember, the most important rule of Civ3 is Growth Trumps All. More population means:
- more settlers, so more cities -> faster growth, more unit support, more production, more trade
- more workers -> more improved tiles -> faster growth, more production and trade
- bigger cities -> more production and trade
That doesn't mean you should max growth to the exclusion of everything else, and certainly not if you're hitting the glass ceiling due to not having hospitals/aqueducts yet for instance, but it does mean that if possible you should have a high-growth plan and a high-shield plan for which tiles a city will work. Use the high-growth plan when you are not maxed out on pop, and the high-shield plan when you are, and your city will be the more productive for it. Exactly which tiles are irrigated and which are mined (e.g. bonus grassland vs. regular grass) are a minor consideration so long as you have these two plans.
That's not to say there is no difference in the result if you have a bonus grass and a regular grass and you mine the first and irrigate the second, versus if you reversed it. There is a difference, but only if you are only working one of them; if you are working both then it's irrelevant. Hence, if you have a food-heavy plan and a shield-heavy plan (i.e. a break-even food plan) then you have the option to micromanage from project to project or even turn to turn to minimize the amount of food and shields you waste due to things like growing a pop or completing a project. Irrigating the regular grass and mining the bonus grass will give you a bigger differential between the effects of those two tiles if you can't or choose not to work both, but that is only useful if one is in a high-shield plan and the other is in a high-growth plan -- i.e., you don't plan to work both. Since you rarely have that many grasslands around, you don't often have that luxury, and if you work both, which has the mine and which the irrigation is unimportant.
Anyway, excuse the ramble. The main point I was trying to make is that you should never blindly follow a set rule for what tile improvements to build on what terrain, but always look to the needs of the city (cities) it falls in the radius of.
I happened to be looking at the last couple turns and noticed a couple things I'd like to point out. The first one is small: Padma mentions not rushing things unless you have 1 shield in the box, or it costs double. This is true. However, there is another way to get shields in the box so that you can rush on the first turn after you have built something -- you can move a unit into that city and disband it. This will give you that crucial first shield you need to be able to rush at normal rate. In fact, if you have a large surplus of units and specific needs in mind, you can disband multiple units to effectively rush something without paying the rush costs at all. This is inefficient shield-wise but does save on gold, which can be important if you are in a tech race; it's not something you are likely to do at the beginning of the game when shields are relatively scarce but is more possible towards the latter half of the game after factories, plants, and hospitals make shields quite abundant. A common use for this is when establishing a beachhead on a new continent, you might sail several ships in and use them to rush an airport, barracks, temple, etc. so that the city is secure and connected to your empire. You can use it earlier, however, if you do need to rush something and have a spare obsolete warrior or something lying around that you can afford to sacrifice.
The second point is more significant, and more important. There is an old conception out there that you should mine certain tiles and irrigate others, based on tile type. This is a FALLACY. Mostly the reasoning is based on the despotic limit of losing 1 of any resource that a tile contributes more than 2 of, but even then these rules don't always make sense. Basing the type of improvements you make on a tile on what the base tile is only makes sense in the earliest parts of the game, for the tiles you intend to use first -- especially if you are limited to size 6 due to lack of fresh water/aqueduct, and even more than that if your city is smaller than 6 due to lack of arable land or settler/worker production. Pretty much the only rule that almost always holds true here is that you should irrigate any tile that has 3 or more food to start with (i.e. flood plains or bonus food resource.) Once you hit the latter half of the ancient age, you can start looking forward to a change of government in the near future, and irrigating grass in preparation for that government change is perfectly reasonable.
The correct way to optimize what tile improvements to build is on a PER-CITY basis, not on a per-tile basis. This is important to ensure that your city has an optimal amount of both food and shields. There is no rule of thumb that will prove correct in all, or even most, situations. If all you have for a city is plains and desert, by golly you'd better irrigate that desert if you want to be able to grow your city large enough to work most of it. If you have lots of surplus food from irrigated grass or bonus food sources, don't make the AI mistake of continuing to irrigate more and more grass -- mine some hills instead, or grass if that's what's available!
Remember, the most important rule of Civ3 is Growth Trumps All. More population means:
- more settlers, so more cities -> faster growth, more unit support, more production, more trade
- more workers -> more improved tiles -> faster growth, more production and trade
- bigger cities -> more production and trade
That doesn't mean you should max growth to the exclusion of everything else, and certainly not if you're hitting the glass ceiling due to not having hospitals/aqueducts yet for instance, but it does mean that if possible you should have a high-growth plan and a high-shield plan for which tiles a city will work. Use the high-growth plan when you are not maxed out on pop, and the high-shield plan when you are, and your city will be the more productive for it. Exactly which tiles are irrigated and which are mined (e.g. bonus grassland vs. regular grass) are a minor consideration so long as you have these two plans.
That's not to say there is no difference in the result if you have a bonus grass and a regular grass and you mine the first and irrigate the second, versus if you reversed it. There is a difference, but only if you are only working one of them; if you are working both then it's irrelevant. Hence, if you have a food-heavy plan and a shield-heavy plan (i.e. a break-even food plan) then you have the option to micromanage from project to project or even turn to turn to minimize the amount of food and shields you waste due to things like growing a pop or completing a project. Irrigating the regular grass and mining the bonus grass will give you a bigger differential between the effects of those two tiles if you can't or choose not to work both, but that is only useful if one is in a high-shield plan and the other is in a high-growth plan -- i.e., you don't plan to work both. Since you rarely have that many grasslands around, you don't often have that luxury, and if you work both, which has the mine and which the irrigation is unimportant.
Anyway, excuse the ramble. The main point I was trying to make is that you should never blindly follow a set rule for what tile improvements to build on what terrain, but always look to the needs of the city (cities) it falls in the radius of.
One minor nit:
There are a couple times when it matters which is irrigated and which is mined, when you're working both a shield grass and a non-shield grass. That is, during a GA or when mobilized for war. Only squares which normally produce 1+ shield gets the bonus shield. In that case (and that case only), it's better to have the regular grass mined and the bonus grass irrigated.
Often, it's beneficial to have it the other way, so that you can pick max food/max growth more easily, as Zed mentioned, when you have excess grass around. I agree with his ramble, but I had to pick my little nit.
Arathorn
There are a couple times when it matters which is irrigated and which is mined, when you're working both a shield grass and a non-shield grass. That is, during a GA or when mobilized for war. Only squares which normally produce 1+ shield gets the bonus shield. In that case (and that case only), it's better to have the regular grass mined and the bonus grass irrigated.
Often, it's beneficial to have it the other way, so that you can pick max food/max growth more easily, as Zed mentioned, when you have excess grass around. I agree with his ramble, but I had to pick my little nit.
Arathorn
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