Cultural Diversity

Cultural Diversity

  1. janboruta

    janboruta Artistriarch

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    The point IS to have separate Papal and Holy Roman groups because of civs with specific goals. I would avoid denominating groups by religion, because the player is free to found any religion he likes. (so no Christendom, no Islamic)
     
  2. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    No, no, no. I must have my special Pope and Holy Roman features. Non-negotiable :lol:.
     
  3. Viregel

    Viregel , The Rt. Hon.

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    Probably should have thought over that. I just thought it was rather strange to have some sets with only one civ, but that makes total sense now.
     
  4. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    That could work.
     
  5. bane_

    bane_ Howardianism High-Priest

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    Homosubi has a nice fan of options for the Japan part.
     
  6. pyroflare77

    pyroflare77 King

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    The Orient should definitely be split up since India's the main influence for most of SE Asia.
     
  7. LastSword

    LastSword Prince

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    Something is missing from Civ V that Civ II had. My youth :<

    ~Unique Antiquity Site: "Tomb of Genghis khan" ~ never discovered, but whatever.
    ~+5 Culture for having the largest Cavalry

    Have fun.
     
  8. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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  9. janboruta

    janboruta Artistriarch

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    I was trying to think about something for the Slavic group, but only a handful of semi-relevant effects come to my mind.

    Traits:
    - defensive buildings constructed faster
    - something related to wheat trade
    - start with both warrior and scout
    - enemy units suffer 5 HP of attrition per turn near the capital
    - unique wonder: Pechersk Lavra: extra faith per population
    OR
    Golden Gate of Kiev, bonuses to trade routes coming to or originating from the city where it is built.
    - unique building: County Court (Sejmik; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejmik ); replaces Courthouse, can be built in any city. Lessens the cost of acquiring Social Policies by 2%.

    Penalties:
    - 5%-10% slower research compared to other European civs

    Goals:
    - Bonus culture for having the largest army
    - Faith reward for adopting a foreign religion and having the most followers of it in the world
    - Reward for never picking Liberty policy tree (Freedom ideology is free to take)
     
  10. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Yeah, to be honest I sceptical about splitting native americans on three groups. At most they should be divided into city dwellers and 'tribes', but when I think about their focus it seems to be similar, and I am going to write down my few ideas about them.

    Colonial, Steppe, Subsaharan and Islamic are the easiest/most obvious groups ;)

    I cannot invent much more civs which would fit here :d Carthago isn't exactly Graeco - Roman but for gameplay purposes it seems much more similar to them than to Near East. I would call this one 'Mediterranean' and put here Rome, Greece, Byzantium, Carthago, Phoenicia/Minoan/whatever is included.

    Sumer, Hittites. By the way, what about Israel and Armenia? :p

    :0 entire group for these guys :0 on the other hand, I forgot about planned Polynesia split - then this group would make sense ;)
    Yeah, that seems to make sense - especially if we would call this group simply PACIFIC and add here Aborigins + Maori (there are mods with them, also it seems TPangolin prepares some Aborigin tribes)

    And here is where problems appear :D

    - 'Ethnic' reasons: we have Germans, Slavs, Romanic nations, Celts and... Hungary + Finland :crazyeye:
    - 'Cultural' reasons: we have Latin Christianity (well, before reformation) and Orthodox Nations (...here also Byzantium collides :D )
    - 'Civilisation historical focus reasons': we have colonial western powers, Scandinavia, little republics of Netherlands/Italia and land empires like Germany 1870, Polish - Lithuanian Commonwealth, Russia, Hungary

    :crazyeye: :crazyeye: :crazyeye: Yeah, Europe in this context gives me a headache :crazyeye:

    Ok, so let me be a little geek as I know basic outline of East Asia history :p

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Indian_cultural_zone.svg/940px-Indian_cultural_zone.svg.png

    This map shows countries and zones under historical Indian cultural influence. From what I know, it seems that Indian architecture, culture, philosophy and religions (especially buddhism and hinduism) had great impact on South - East Asia; Indonesia, Siam, Burma, Khmer have much more in common with India than with China, when we use scientific term of 'civilisation' (still unclear...). On the other hand, they are distinctive enough to consider creating separate SEA group, although I am not sure about that; definitely they should be rather in Indian group than in Chinese one.

    On the other hand, China had powerful cultural impact on Korea, Japan and Vietnam, so they should belong to Chinese group (maybe with exception of Japan - to be honest I don't know whether Japan should have separate group or not, but I thought you want to create not many 'general' groups ;) )

    Basically, we have options:
    Chinese Group - Indian Group
    Chinese Group - Indian Group - South East Asian Group
    whatever groups - separate Japanese group

    ;)

    ALTERNATE:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png/800px-Clash_of_Civilizations_map.png

    This one, as we can see, divides Europe on Latin and Orthodox Christianity, and creates interesting mess in Asia: India is India, China + Korea + Vietnam are in Chinese group, Japan is alone, Indonesia belongs to Islam group (but for big part of its history Indonesia was hindu...) and Tibet + Burma + Khmer + Siam create buddhist group. Generally, this is based on world religions.
     
  11. janboruta

    janboruta Artistriarch

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    Sorry to take only this part of your post, but I would toss ethnic reasons aside and just focus on large, noticeable groups. So in Europe we have:

    Northern/Western Europe: Germanic nations + France, Spain, Portugal
    Southern/Mediterranean: Rome, Greece, Carthage, Byzantium etc.
    Eastern/Slavic: Poland, Russia, Kiev, Lithuania, and I would really put Hungary here, just because they were still an eastern element within the rest of Europe. I think this is the most basic division, which doesn't require delving into unnecessary detail. :)
     
  12. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    Now, something VERY LONG.

    FOCUS IDEAS
    I give here general Focus Ideas, not exact game mechanics - here my obsession about fighting with Eurocentrism (and even bigger obsession about analysing data) can be useful.

    Native Americans - Fancy Name{America}
    Spoiler :
    Well, IMHO they should definitely receive some cool game mechanics with terrain/resources/improvements. Look, NA are famous for their coexistence with nature... or perfect use of it :D
    - Andes and incredible terrace farms and mountain cities
    - Jungle civilisations of Mesoamerica and South America
    - Pueblo and their impressive civilisation
    - Iroquis and their coexistence with forests
    - All those various tribes with their adaptive abilities, living on plains, deserts, swamps, forests and so on.
    What a pity there isn't some kind of 'Ecology' in this game, NA would be perfect for it (also it would be perfect as a downside of European colonial superpowers :D ). Also, their agriculture. Many, many plants and crops came to the world as NA inventions - potatoes, maize, cocoa, tobacco...
    Downsides:
    I wouldn't give them general technological penalty, because NA societies managed to achieve impressive level of science, architecture, mathematics, astronomy and so on. Instead, I would give them particular penalty on military technologies - and especially on fleet! (hell, I don't know anything about NA seafaring abilities, and I like to dig up really obscure things) Also, they weren't (unfortunately :( ) particularly prepared to total war, maintaning huge armies, had no cavalry/siege machines, and they were spectacularly failing in city defense against Europeans :( (when I think about it, it seems amazing than the bigges victories of NA against Europe were usually achieved in open field battles - Araucans/Mapuche were awesome, as well as Iroquis, Cherokee, Comanche, Sioux, while cities were falling ridiculously easy.
    So, penalty to military technology and/or fleet and/or army and/or city defense, but specialistic bonuses to fighting in certain terrain/situation. By the way, I absolutely love Iroquis.


    Sub - Sabaran Africa - Fancy Name{Africa/Ebony}
    Spoiler :

    Land trade. Must have; land trade was basic force in sub - Saharan Africa. Far land trade, especially ruch land trade, unability to plunder caravans by barbarians, something like that. Also maybe some kind of interesting bonus to natural resources - hey, look at salt and gold from Mali/Ghana, bronzes of Benin, raffia of Kongo, ivory... African land trade and trade of resources is very important in its history. Also, some bonus to meele infantry - Zulu/Kongolese/Ashanti armies were particularly awesome in fighting in awful conditions :p
    Science from trade routes (greatly) increased. Eventually, some kind of interesting bonus to culture - one of the most characteristic parts of African Civilisation is its insanely strong tribal tradition/culture/family bonds, so strong that it managed to survive trans - Atlantic slave trade.
    Downsides:
    Science... Remember when I said about NA being scientifically developed in many fields? Well, IMHO Africa was historically less developed than Mesoamerica/Andes. Few African writing systems, indigenous architecture - while exists - doesn't seem to be as sophisticated as NA achievements... Sorry Africa, I would give it some science penalty to balance it with trade routes/killing more advanced enemies. I would even say SSA should be opposite to NA - penalty to science except from military technologies, and paradoxically Africa was defending against Europeans better than Americas until late XIX century. Still - penalty to 'civil science', buildings (?), infrastructure (Africa ALWAYS had really weak road network and things like that).

    To be honest, if I were racist I would say that they should receive bonus to movement speed, music, workers and unique Slave resource... Yeah, that's pretty offensive o_o


    Colonial States - Fancy Name{Colony?...}
    Spoiler :

    Rapid development, I am not sure of what, but somewhere here should be rapid development :p Some kind of bonus to modern ages, in science or economy or infrastructure. Tourism is MUST HAVE - look at cultural power of USA. And, in less extent, Mexico (fancy hats!), Brasil (carnival!), Australia (kangaroos!) and so on - recently I have just discovered rich culture of underrated American countries like Bolivia. :) Also, bonus to wide empires is second MUST HAVE - hell, it is hard to find something more similar to civ's Wide Empires than giant and sparsely populated colonial states (except from Russia :D ). And maybe some kind of bonus for mixing various religions/cultures? (yeah, I know there is no 'culture mixing' in civ5 :( )
    Downsides:
    Uhm, you know, development in ancient times in terms of culture and science... :D Also, not very strong/experienced military. Yeah, I know that USA army is superior to the whole world's military in XX century :0 but this is exception here - Canada and Australia are pretty pacifistic, Latin America countries had wars between themselves but compare it to European giant coalition wars, constant tribal warfare in Africa, or constant Asian great conflicts. Yeah, pretty pacifistic and not very experienced in great conflicts - except from USA, but even 'Murica had almost all of its great wars on overseas territories... Colonial states' wars were usually not very big and devastating as Eurasia ones, there are only few exceptions here (American Civil War, Paraguay War). Hell, war between USA and Mexico, with few thousand soldiers armies, is really tiny when compared to hundred thousand battles in the ANCIENT Eurasia.


    Islam - Fancy Name{the Crescent - climatic, and in the same time doesn't break immersion when you take other religion than Islam :d}
    Spoiler :

    - Cavalry cavalry cavalry cavalry, mobile armies, fast striking offensive armies, bonus to sieges, something like that
    - Trade, both sea and land, definitely very distinctive part of Islam Civilisation
    - Ability to rapid expansion in short time - hey, Arab conquests were absolutely insane, along with Ottoman/Mughal/Timurid ones. Something to decrease unhappiness from wide terriories - muslim tolerance was very distinctive and nice.
    - Faith. State religion and its expansion - obvious one. We all know how powerful Islam is.
    - Some awesome connection between faith and science/culture/golden ages - golden age of Islam was extremely awesome. Maybe something like 'faith points <fancy mathematics> are added to golden age/science/culture meter'?
    Downsides:
    I have no exact idea here, but IMHO there should be some kind of mechanism reflecting 'fall of Islam'. What I am talking about? You know, history of Islam Civilisation can be divided on two periods:
    VII century - 1258/Mughal and Ottoman decline
    1258/M and O decline - today :(
    In the first period, Islam created incredibly sophisticated and awesome science, culture and civilisation. However, the shock of devastation of Baghdad by damn Mongols begun tendency to block innovation - the situation became worse with final decline of Ottoman/Mughal empire, and much morse in XIX century, when 'ingenious' muslim philosophers decided that fail of muslim world is because of 'abandoning orthodox pure Faith' - and they started barbarisation of Islam and its modern dark ages :/
    In general, my ideals vision of Islam civs in game is that they can be particularly awesome or paticularly awful based on their religion - but I have no more ideas here.


    Greeko - Roman{Mediterranean}
    Spoiler :

    Culture. Architecture. Great works. Infrastructure. Sea trade (very important) and obvously some kind of science bonus - something strong connected with specialists/great people would be nice. On the other hand, Greek/Roman/Carthago/Byzantium were really 'wide' empires which should receive some kind of bonus to spamming/conquering many cities. Maybe this would be interesting - synergy between fast expansion and developed civilisation.
    Also, strong military. Greece had hoplites, Carthago had powerful navy, Byzantium was almost impossible to conquer, and Rome - you know. But I have no idea which kind of bonus would reflect Mediterranean military power in the ancient world.
    Maybe some kind of bonus towards social policies would be also nice.
    Downsides:
    Weak state religion, definitely this one... With brutal exception of Byzantium (personally I would much rather assign Byzantium to Eastern Europe/Orthodox group - differences are really big). Rome was surprisingly secular state, comparing with various other ancient civilisations, Carthago didn't have particularly expansive religion :p and Greece had lots of local cults which importance is GREATLY exagerrated in Western literature. All mediterranean countries weren't famous for fanatical religion, and ultimately were completely dominated by foreign Eastern cults (Mitra, zoroastranism, Islam, there was also one guy called Jerry Christ or something like that).
    Also, I would love to give them something reflecting this negative tiny aspect of giant use of slaves, constant wars and extremely brutal political fight - some problems with stability/happiness :p


    Western Europe - Fancy Name{Occident}
    Spoiler :

    Navy, proffesional army, sea trade, ability to conquer overseas territories easily, bonuses towards science/great people/specialists and brutal spreading of Christian state religion via Cross and Sword. You know, this is pretty 'standard set' ;)
    Downsides:
    What a pity there is nothing like Ecology in this game, this would be perfect. Still, I would give European states some kind of penalty or additional unhappiness for having various religions/cultural groups/so on. You know, European tolerance is fairly modern invention, before it Western Europe - while still being civilised and very developed - managed to enslave the entire Africa, devastate Native American cultures, destroy foreign religions, make religious wars, crusades, exterminate the Catars, and finally declare itself as Superior White Culture and create very developed racist theories. And then ethnic cleansing (especially Holocaust) has come and we Europeans still can't believe in our own historical bestiality :/
    Don't want to make 'all Europeans are racists' stupid stereotype, but if I would have to choose cultural group with bad history of tolerance, I would choose entire Europe - in some periods this continent was average comparing to the rest of the world, in some period it was awful in terms of tolerance (reformation, XIX century and racism, I am not sure about dark ages)


    Eastern Europe - Fancy Name{Interior}
    Spoiler :

    Land army, powerful and big land army, especially heavy cavalry. National defence and strong resistance to enemy civilisations' conquests. Bonus to industry. Some kind of interesting bonus to Ideologies, also something with Great People; some kind of bonus to 'defense of state religion' - getting rid of Eastern Europeans' faith and culture is insanely difficult, as we can see on examples of Hungary, Russia, Poland, Ucraine :p
    Downsides:
    Well, something with unhappiness/messed up government? You see, Hungary was regularly divided by internal conflicts (nobles) until it was devoured by Austria and Ottomans, Poland created really nice democratic/tolerant form of government which, after its golden age, made Polish state completely uneffective, Byzantium had INSANE internal problems and constant intrigues, and Russian states after Mongol conquest had serious problems with despotism... And then completely pathological Soviet Union has come, yeah :(


    Mesopotamia/Near East - Fancy Name{the Cradle}
    Spoiler :

    Obviously, some kind of awesome bonus to extremely early development/science/culture. ;) Also, maybe to population/agriculture/making use of deserts. Something interesting connected with building Architectonical Wonders.
    Downsides:
    Well... Something connected with stagnation? Problems with later eras? Problems with upgrading military units :p or taking later policy trees?


    Chinese Sphere of Influence - Fancy Name{Orient}
    Spoiler :

    SCIENCE. I don't know what, but something with science. And great works/great people. I would also think about some kind of interesting Specialists bonus - you know, Chinese administration, Korean education system, I have recently read something about medieval Vietnamese academies... Ability to maintain huge armies and huge population. I am not sure about this Trade Routes bonus - maybe limit Oriental ability to send trade routes on their own, but give them bonus to gold from trade routes going TO them? Or give them abilities to maintain developed economy even while isolated? China was pretty isolated for most of its history, but it had insane GDP. Korea, Vietnam and Japan also were usually isolated, and yet they were always pretty developed.
    Downsides:
    Maybe something with mentioned unability to create Great Trade Empire, or Great Colonial Seafaring Empire? Or something connected to very dangerous tendency to stagnation and lack of power to change.


    India/Indian Sphere of Influence - Fancy Name{Bharata/Akhand Bharat}
    Spoiler :

    Faith faith faith faith. Bonus to religion/faith/happiness from religion/religious pressure (without missionaries!)/ mixed religions/religious buildings/science connected with faith.
    Other must have - some kind of cultural bonus, no interesting idea here.
    Also: maybe some kind of architecture bonus. And agriculture/plantation one.
    I think that reflecting giant sophistication of various Indian/Indochina connected cultures would be nice - for example, some kind of ability which would allow on balanced and limited building uniques of other nations from this cultural group
    Downsides:
    Absolutely no idea.


    Those are my ideas for 10 main groups - eventually we can make separate groups for Japan and South - East Asia, also Pacific and JDF two unique groups ;)
     
    Ryansinbela likes this.
  13. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    This is more the split that I was going for with Europe, except I would probably split Germanic nations and France, Spain, Portugal, England, etc. up because I'd like to give the latter group extra incentive to colonize in the later game, whereas the former would not fit this intention.

    Appreciate and love the suggestions.



    FOCUS IDEAS
    I give here general Focus Ideas, not exact game mechanics - here my obsession about fighting with Eurocentrism (and even bigger obsession about analysing data) can be useful.

    Native Americans - Fancy Name{America}
    Spoiler :
    Well, IMHO they should definitely receive some cool game mechanics with terrain/resources/improvements. Look, NA are famous for their coexistence with nature... or perfect use of it :D
    - Andes and incredible terrace farms and mountain cities
    - Jungle civilisations of Mesoamerica and South America
    - Pueblo and their impressive civilisation
    - Iroquis and their coexistence with forests
    - All those various tribes with their adaptive abilities, living on plains, deserts, swamps, forests and so on.
    What a pity there isn't some kind of 'Ecology' in this game, NA would be perfect for it (also it would be perfect as a downside of European colonial superpowers :D ). Also, their agriculture. Many, many plants and crops came to the world as NA inventions - potatoes, maize, cocoa, tobacco...
    Downsides:
    I wouldn't give them general technological penalty, because NA societies managed to achieve impressive level of science, architecture, mathematics, astronomy and so on. Instead, I would give them particular penalty on military technologies - and especially on fleet! (hell, I don't know anything about NA seafaring abilities, and I like to dig up really obscure things) Also, they weren't (unfortunately :( ) particularly prepared to total war, maintaning huge armies, had no cavalry/siege machines, and they were spectacularly failing in city defense against Europeans :( (when I think about it, it seems amazing than the bigges victories of NA against Europe were usually achieved in open field battles - Araucans/Mapuche were awesome, as well as Iroquis, Cherokee, Comanche, Sioux, while cities were falling ridiculously easy.
    So, penalty to military technology and/or fleet and/or army and/or city defense, but specialistic bonuses to fighting in certain terrain/situation. By the way, I absolutely love Iroquis.


    Granted, but technological progress in the Americas was fairly inert relative to Europeans, Middle-Eastern and Asians at the time. This is what I'm trying to reflect with slower overall technology, even should this be mostly out of a lack of need for the same kind of technological progress. And the second pantheon would capture their tendency to do well with nature, I think.

    Sub - Sabaran Africa - Fancy Name{Africa/Ebony}
    Spoiler :

    Land trade. Must have; land trade was basic force in sub - Saharan Africa. Far land trade, especially ruch land trade, unability to plunder caravans by barbarians, something like that. Also maybe some kind of interesting bonus to natural resources - hey, look at salt and gold from Mali/Ghana, bronzes of Benin, raffia of Kongo, ivory... African land trade and trade of resources is very important in its history. Also, some bonus to meele infantry - Zulu/Kongolese/Ashanti armies were particularly awesome in fighting in awful conditions :p
    Science from trade routes (greatly) increased. Eventually, some kind of interesting bonus to culture - one of the most characteristic parts of African Civilisation is its insanely strong tribal tradition/culture/family bonds, so strong that it managed to survive trans - Atlantic slave trade.
    Downsides:
    Science... Remember when I said about NA being scientifically developed in many fields? Well, IMHO Africa was historically less developed than Mesoamerica/Andes. Few African writing systems, indigenous architecture - while exists - doesn't seem to be as sophisticated as NA achievements... Sorry Africa, I would give it some science penalty to balance it with trade routes/killing more advanced enemies. I would even say SSA should be opposite to NA - penalty to science except from military technologies, and paradoxically Africa was defending against Europeans better than Americas until late XIX century. Still - penalty to 'civil science', buildings (?), infrastructure (Africa ALWAYS had really weak road network and things like that).

    To be honest, if I were racist I would say that they should receive bonus to movement speed, music, workers and unique Slave resource... Yeah, that's pretty offensive o_o


    I'm an advocate of the term "racism" retaining its meaning, rather than becoming a catch-all term for anything stereotypical. So that suggestion would not be racist, but also probably not particularly impactful, and maybe also a little misguided, but definitely stereotypical. I like the ideas that you've proposed. Perhaps a sort of technological diffusion for Africans from their trade routes.

    Colonial States - Fancy Name{Colony?...}
    Spoiler :

    Rapid development, I am not sure of what, but somewhere here should be rapid development :p Some kind of bonus to modern ages, in science or economy or infrastructure. Tourism is MUST HAVE - look at cultural power of USA. And, in less extent, Mexico (fancy hats!), Brasil (carnival!), Australia (kangaroos!) and so on - recently I have just discovered rich culture of underrated American countries like Bolivia. :) Also, bonus to wide empires is second MUST HAVE - hell, it is hard to find something more similar to civ's Wide Empires than giant and sparsely populated colonial states (except from Russia :D ). And maybe some kind of bonus for mixing various religions/cultures? (yeah, I know there is no 'culture mixing' in civ5 :( )
    Downsides:
    Uhm, you know, development in ancient times in terms of culture and science... :D Also, not very strong/experienced military. Yeah, I know that USA army is superior to the whole world's military in XX century :0 but this is exception here - Canada and Australia are pretty pacifistic, Latin America countries had wars between themselves but compare it to European giant coalition wars, constant tribal warfare in Africa, or constant Asian great conflicts. Yeah, pretty pacifistic and not very experienced in great conflicts - except from USA, but even 'Murica had almost all of its great wars on overseas territories... Colonial states' wars were usually not very big and devastating as Eurasia ones, there are only few exceptions here (American Civil War, Paraguay War). Hell, war between USA and Mexico, with few thousand soldiers armies, is really tiny when compared to hundred thousand battles in the ANCIENT Eurasia.


    I agree. Tourism would be the focus here. Colonial civs shall be deadly to face off against in the Cultural Victory game.

    Islam - Fancy Name{the Crescent - climatic, and in the same time doesn't break immersion when you take other religion than Islam :d}
    Spoiler :

    - Cavalry cavalry cavalry cavalry, mobile armies, fast striking offensive armies, bonus to sieges, something like that
    - Trade, both sea and land, definitely very distinctive part of Islam Civilisation
    - Ability to rapid expansion in short time - hey, Arab conquests were absolutely insane, along with Ottoman/Mughal/Timurid ones. Something to decrease unhappiness from wide terriories - muslim tolerance was very distinctive and nice.
    - Faith. State religion and its expansion - obvious one. We all know how powerful Islam is.
    - Some awesome connection between faith and science/culture/golden ages - golden age of Islam was extremely awesome. Maybe something like 'faith points <fancy mathematics> are added to golden age/science/culture meter'?
    Downsides:
    I have no exact idea here, but IMHO there should be some kind of mechanism reflecting 'fall of Islam'. What I am talking about? You know, history of Islam Civilisation can be divided on two periods:
    VII century - 1258/Mughal and Ottoman decline
    1258/M and O decline - today :(
    In the first period, Islam created incredibly sophisticated and awesome science, culture and civilisation. However, the shock of devastation of Baghdad by damn Mongols begun tendency to block innovation - the situation became worse with final decline of Ottoman/Mughal empire, and much morse in XIX century, when 'ingenious' muslim philosophers decided that fail of muslim world is because of 'abandoning orthodox pure Faith' - and they started barbarisation of Islam and its modern dark ages :/
    In general, my ideals vision of Islam civs in game is that they can be particularly awesome or paticularly awful based on their religion - but I have no more ideas here.


    I was thinking I could salvage my Ottoman trait for Arabic civs; i.e. faith from specialists and faith into science. One possible penalty to Arabic civs could be a harsher diplomatic penalty for religious differences.

    Greeko - Roman{Mediterranean}
    Spoiler :

    Culture. Architecture. Great works. Infrastructure. Sea trade (very important) and obvously some kind of science bonus - something strong connected with specialists/great people would be nice. On the other hand, Greek/Roman/Carthago/Byzantium were really 'wide' empires which should receive some kind of bonus to spamming/conquering many cities. Maybe this would be interesting - synergy between fast expansion and developed civilisation.
    Also, strong military. Greece had hoplites, Carthago had powerful navy, Byzantium was almost impossible to conquer, and Rome - you know. But I have no idea which kind of bonus would reflect Mediterranean military power in the ancient world.
    Maybe some kind of bonus towards social policies would be also nice.
    Downsides:
    Weak state religion, definitely this one... With brutal exception of Byzantium (personally I would much rather assign Byzantium to Eastern Europe/Orthodox group - differences are really big). Rome was surprisingly secular state, comparing with various other ancient civilisations, Carthago didn't have particularly expansive religion :p and Greece had lots of local cults which importance is GREATLY exagerrated in Western literature. All mediterranean countries weren't famous for fanatical religion, and ultimately were completely dominated by foreign Eastern cults (Mitra, zoroastranism, Islam, there was also one guy called Jerry Christ or something like that).
    Also, I would love to give them something reflecting this negative tiny aspect of giant use of slaves, constant wars and extremely brutal political fight - some problems with stability/happiness :p


    Rome, at least, had a very influential religion; made so especially because of their syncretism. Many government actions were on the advice of oracles. I'm not sure what I'd do with Graeco-Romans yet, but given that Byzantium is the successor to Rome (well, of the hundreds of claimants to the title, Byzantium is the closet), I would like to retain them in the same group if I possibly can.

    Western Europe - Fancy Name{Occident}
    Spoiler :

    Navy, proffesional army, sea trade, ability to conquer overseas territories easily, bonuses towards science/great people/specialists and brutal spreading of Christian state religion via Cross and Sword. You know, this is pretty 'standard set' ;)
    Downsides:
    What a pity there is nothing like Ecology in this game, this would be perfect. Still, I would give European states some kind of penalty or additional unhappiness for having various religions/cultural groups/so on. You know, European tolerance is fairly modern invention, before it Western Europe - while still being civilised and very developed - managed to enslave the entire Africa, devastate Native American cultures, destroy foreign religions, make religious wars, crusades, exterminate the Catars, and finally declare itself as Superior White Culture and create very developed racist theories. And then ethnic cleansing (especially Holocaust) has come and we Europeans still can't believe in our own historical bestiality :/
    Don't want to make 'all Europeans are racists' stupid stereotype, but if I would have to choose cultural group with bad history of tolerance, I would choose entire Europe - in some periods this continent was average comparing to the rest of the world, in some period it was awful in terms of tolerance (reformation, XIX century and racism, I am not sure about dark ages)


    It's something to consider, but I will certainly be splitting Europe up more than between West and East if I am to have colonizing bonuses for them.

    Eastern Europe - Fancy Name{Interior}
    Spoiler :

    Land army, powerful and big land army, especially heavy cavalry. National defence and strong resistance to enemy civilisations' conquests. Bonus to industry. Some kind of interesting bonus to Ideologies, also something with Great People; some kind of bonus to 'defense of state religion' - getting rid of Eastern Europeans' faith and culture is insanely difficult, as we can see on examples of Hungary, Russia, Poland, Ucraine :p
    Downsides:
    Well, something with unhappiness/messed up government? You see, Hungary was regularly divided by internal conflicts (nobles) until it was devoured by Austria and Ottomans, Poland created really nice democratic/tolerant form of government which, after its golden age, made Polish state completely uneffective, Byzantium had INSANE internal problems and constant intrigues, and Russian states after Mongol conquest had serious problems with despotism... And then completely pathological Soviet Union has come, yeah :(


    Times like these an internal corruption system would be nice.

    Mesopotamia/Near East - Fancy Name{the Cradle}
    Spoiler :

    Obviously, some kind of awesome bonus to extremely early development/science/culture. ;) Also, maybe to population/agriculture/making use of deserts. Something interesting connected with building Architectonical Wonders.
    Downsides:
    Well... Something connected with stagnation? Problems with later eras? Problems with upgrading military units :p or taking later policy trees?


    A population focus is definitely want I'm thinking. A massive population will naturally enable better science, culture and such - I think the best penalty would be that their own bonuses peter out in later eras, as you say.



    Some very interesting ideas, here. Thank you Krajzen. I will put them to good thought.

    Incidentally, I don't have a clue where Armenia would fit...
     
  14. mrc2022

    mrc2022 Capitão Rolinho

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    This is an awesome idea. I'll read this more carefully before adding any thought.
    Just one question, how are you doing the cultural groups? Because I wanted to do a mod were those kind of groups would share uniques
     
  15. janboruta

    janboruta Artistriarch

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    Hm, Armenia is really a tricky one, but I think that it would best fit with the Eastern European group for the time being. It's not western enough to be with Greeks and Romans and not southern enough to be Mesopotamic, and the focus on defending the religion is definitely an Armenian trait.

    It's a similar deal as Hungary - their ethnicity is so much different from the rest of Eastern Europe (well, at least in the middle ages the differences were really jarring), but they shared a lot of fortunes and misfortunes of other Eastern nations in the area, especially those in the Balkans. But for the sake of simplicity, it's more convenient to put them in the Eastern European group.
     
  16. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    I intend to have each cultural group share similar uniques. Each will have at least 1 unique wonder (depending upon the size of the group, some will have more). I will endeavour to include other uniques, as well. I think I might give unique buildings that groups whose civs mostly include uu (e.g. the Steppe civs get a unique building, as almost every one of them has a unique unit), and vice-versa.

    Yes. The groupings will be more mechanical than anything. I think Armenia will function appropriately with the Slavs.

    Incidentally, if there are no more suggestions for the Steppes, I will release them sometime today. I'm just fixing up the foundational UI and I've got to figure out how to compare the size of their cavalry to everyone else, and then I'm done.
     
  17. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    Struggling to compare the values of each civ's plot count to the steppe civ, or at least to retrieve the maximum value of everyone's plot count. An alternative I can do is "Possess 22% of the world's land" but this might be too rigid?
     
  18. mrc2022

    mrc2022 Capitão Rolinho

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    Was going to comment trying to point out my view and the ideas for my shot at something like this, although I was only thinking of uniques and not any cultural aspect.
    But I'm gonna wait to see where you are coming up with this.
     
  19. Hiram

    Hiram XML Plebian

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    This is a brilliant idea! If you like I could compile a list of civs according to category. I've got a library of mod civs that covers most of the decent ones that are available.
     
  20. JFD

    JFD Kathigitarkh

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    If you're interested, then sure. I'd be interested to see what you come up with. But bear in mind that the civ groupings that I've listed aren't final.
     

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