Cultural Victory should definitely be refined; let's discuss some suggestions

[stealth_nsk]

An idea for VII -- what if instead of introducing a new currency to buy explorers, you could instead "bank" culture. As in--put X number of culture to the side per turn in order to eventually save up enough for an explorer. This would at the very least make culture generation somewhat relevant for the victory path?

Please, no more additional currencies or tourism.

Buying explorer with a new "culture currency" is basically the same as unlocking explorer with some civics, but a bit more complicated. I would stick with something more automatic like "every X civics = more explorer" or, even better in my opinion, "when you unlock some specific civics you get +1 explorer and/ or you get some bonuses to your explorers"

This sounds interesting. I was thinking about getting artifacts from civics, but getting explorers from them could work too.

 

[bumpyglint]

I was thinking about third option. And together with much more expensive explorers this should make pacing more even. You'll be unable to rush collecting artifacts as you did before patch (due to expensive explorers), while still be able to get enough artifacts even if you're late to the party (due to natural wonders).

The problem with third option is that there's literally no way to stop the first one that build/ buyt the explorer, meaning that again even more than ever it's simply a rush to "the first one buying explorer and sending them to the closest natural wonder wins".

You say:

"You'll be unable to rush collecting artifacts as you did before patch (due to expensive explorers)"

but if they don't cost 10k gold, they will always be definitely rushable. In the dev's video they cost something like 1.300 gold, which is definitely not that much (in modern age you can have 1.300 gold per turn with basically no problem), and even if they would cost 10.000 gold with infinite artifact in one many locations the first one creating the explorers is the first one winning the game, with literally no way to stop him. At least the limited number of artifacts could sort of stop one rusher if someone else is rushing too (until hegemony), I'm pretty sure this system would worsen the actual system (we'll see tomorrow anyway I guess...)

 

[Krikkit1]

The problem with third option is that there's literally no way to stop the first one that build/ buyt the explorer, meaning that again even more than ever it's simply a rush to "the first one buying explorer and sending them to the closest natural wonder wins".

You say:

"You'll be unable to rush collecting artifacts as you did before patch (due to expensive explorers)"

but if they don't cost 10k gold, they will always be definitely rushable. In the dev's video they cost something like 1.300 gold, which is definitely not that much (in modern age you can have 1.300 gold per turn with basically no problem), and even if they would cost 10.000 gold with infinite artifact in one many locations the first one creating the explorers is the first one winning the game, with literally no way to stop him. At least the limited number of artifacts could sort of stop one rusher if someone else is rushing too (until hegemony), I'm pretty sure this system would worsen the actual system (we'll see tomorrow anyway I guess...)

Could just make them unable to be bought (build only)

 

[marius_kaparius]

My question about the changes: Why dig at the Natural Wonders? Shouldn’t it be more like photograph or painting? Actually, isn’t archeology more of a scientific pursuit than a cultural one?

Maybe the Modern age Culture victory should be about dominating the airwaves? Great musicians, compositions, radio towers.

 

[bumpyglint]

Could just make them unable to be bought (build only)

I think this would simply nerf town and economic empires, but the concept would be basically the same and nothing would change

 

[stealth_nsk]

The problem with third option is that there's literally no way to stop the first one that build/ buyt the explorer, meaning that again even more than ever it's simply a rush to "the first one buying explorer and sending them to the closest natural wonder wins".

You say:

"You'll be unable to rush collecting artifacts as you did before patch (due to expensive explorers)"

but if they don't cost 10k gold, they will always be definitely rushable. In the dev's video they cost something like 1.300 gold, which is definitely not that much (in modern age you can have 1.300 gold per turn with basically no problem), and even if they would cost 10.000 gold with infinite artifact in one many locations the first one creating the explorers is the first one winning the game, with literally no way to stop him. At least the limited number of artifacts could sort of stop one rusher if someone else is rushing too (until hegemony), I'm pretty sure this system would worsen the actual system (we'll see tomorrow anyway I guess...)

I'm probably misread the option. My idea is that the artifacts are not unlimited, but each player could dig one from each natural wonder.

 

[lostcause]

My question about the changes: Why dig at the Natural Wonders? Shouldn’t it be more like photograph or painting? Actually, isn’t archeology more of a scientific pursuit than a cultural one?

Considering that the Economic Legacy in the Exploration Age involves exploiting and exporting exotic resources found in far away lands to replicate colonialism, stealing the legacies of other cultures to put on display in a Museum seems right on point for Civ VII.

 

[cbum]

Just add back the ability to disable victories you don't want to play. Problem solved. You could always re-enable when improved.

 

[Sagax]

My question about the changes: Why dig at the Natural Wonders? Shouldn’t it be more like photograph or painting? Actually, isn’t archeology more of a scientific pursuit than a cultural one?

Maybe the Modern age Culture victory should be about dominating the airwaves? Great musicians, compositions, radio towers.

Because in the games current state it is fundamentally impossible for Modern culture to be about anything but digging. Until they (hopefully) overhaul cultural victory as part of a bigger expansion, all they can do as part of minor DLCs is to make bandaid fixes to the current concept.

 

[Racington]

Many players have raised concerns about Cultural Victory in Civ VII, which currently feels like the weakest victory type. The key problems are:

• Culture is irrelevant – Despite being a "Cultural" victory, culture itself has no impact. Instead, success depends on mass-producing explorers and museums. Additionally, artifacts are globally visible once discovered, including those from the "Hegemony" Civic, meaning high culture provides no real advantage.
• It's easily rushed and unstoppable – Explorers cannot be killed, even during wartime, making it impossible to block an opponent’s progress. While some have suggested making explorers killable, this would likely break multiplayer balance and be unmanageable for AI in single-player.
• Heavy RNG factor – Random events (obtained while overbuilding) grant large numbers of artifacts, leading to inconsistent and unpredictable victory paths.
• AI mismanages explorers – The AI frequently sends swarms of explorers to the same locations, despite gaining no advantage from doing so. This is likely a bug that should be fixed.

Basically, Cultural Victory boils down to spamming explorers and hoping for conveniently placed artifacts or lucky events, while culture itself plays no meaningful role. Also, I think I can sort of understand why all the artifacts discovered by one single player are immediately revealed to everyone else: the point is that otherwise that player would have for some turns an incredible edge on "stealing" all the artifacts on the map, leaving nothing to anyone else even before they can even think to try to stop you, but still it's not a good, realistic or funny mechanic.

To improve Cultural Victory, changes should focus on:

• Making culture matter
• Reducing reliance on RNG (this is subjective, and related only to my last suggestion)

Here are my main suggestions:

• Limit the number of explorers per player, tied to civic progression --> Instead of encouraging an immediate explorer spam, players should have a capped number of explorers based on civics unlocked. For example, one explorer could be available after discovering Natural History (with no need to build it, similar to the first merchant), with more unlocked through later civics. This would make culture more valuable (more culture = more civics = more explorer), smooth out artifact accumulation reducing the related micromanagement (no more 10 explorer per time,leaving them unused for many turn and then sending them everywhere all together again after Hegemony) and give a more realistic advancement in this legacy path (similar to the increase in economic/ scientific victories)
• Give an advantage to the first player reaching Hegemony --> Currently, Hegemony provides no real edge but simply "unlocks" the possibility to win culturally (which is often "unlocked" by a stupid AI that can't win this wasy). A simple fix would be granting one extra explorer slot to the first civilization that achieves it (or simply giving an explorer to everyone reaching it, basically making it "just" another civic with the +1 max explorer)
• Reduce or remove RNG from artifact discovery --> Random events granting artifacts should be minimized or made deterministic (one possible deterministic system: after every X overbuilds, the player receives always EXACTLY one artifact).

Obviously the number of artifacts necessary to win should be adjusted based on these new rules.

I think these changes would make Cultural Victory more balanced, rewarding, and aligned with its theme. While it shouldn't just be a "civic completion race" (too similar to Science Victory), incentivizing culture and reducing randomness/ micromanagement would be a step in the right direction. Additionally, this would definitely reduce the "explorer rush" that can bring you to an easy victory in the first 40 turns of modern age.

What do you think? Any further ideas?

I think part of the problem is that they turned culture victories from something that felt like a legitimate challenge (V, VI), to just spamming explorers. I've played about 7 or 8 games now, and have only gone for a culture victory once, because it just is not fun. Frankly, in my opinion, ALL of the victory types in VII are a downgrade from V and VI, except for the science victory, as it's basically the same.