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Culture-Flipping Exposed

Thanks, Dan. That's really good info to have.

I assume that foreign nationals establish a base-chance of the city flipping back to the civ of the foreign nationals. But can they also add to the base-chance of a city flipping to a third civ if that civ owns part of the city's 21-tile territory? For example: The Roman civ has been wiped out, but there are still Roman nationals living in the (captured) Indian city of Pisae. If the Greek civ's borders intrude into Pisae's 21-tile territory, does the presence of Roman nationals make the city easier to flip?

A big culture city does help, as it pushes the culture borders inside other cities radius, that reducing the number of squares that an enemy city can take away from your 21.

This brings up the question of how ownership of a square is decided. I assume it is based upon the cultural values of the two cities attempting to establish ownership, but what other factors are involved? Civ culture values? Distance to capital?
 
I disagree about bad programming and poor game design. After reading the first post in the thread, I believe the designers put a lot of thought into the culture flipping stats and tweaked it during testing. Obviously, you (and others) have a different opinion, but other opinions are just as valid as yours.

It can be argued that it is stupid and illogical to station a large garrison in a city where resistance is strong. Unless the troops are trained as police, they are not an effective policing force, especially in a foreign country. Troops will defect if they are exposed to a culture and life style that is far superior to their own. This is realistic. Perhaps the designers tried having a few troops defect each turn, but found this to be unworkable and settled on the current system.

I know militarists do not like it. I am not sure that I like it either, but to say that culture flipping is bad game design and bad programming is an opinion not a fact. If it does get fixed in the radical way that some propose I think the game becomes less interesting not more, making it clear to me that it not a bug like your other examples.

I think a more useful fix is some kind of indicator on the city screen showing the chance to flip for the next turn with a zero chance the first turn you take a city. Other than that the current system is fine by me. Cheers.

Originally posted by Rhandom
Gah, I'm so sick of this stupid argument that bad programming and game design is excusable so long as there is a work around. By that logic, they shouldn't have fixed the broken air superiority missions - after all, you could just NOT build fighters. The over powerful corruption problem should not have been fixed - after all, you could just build 8 cities only or live with the consequences. Hey, if your game locks up irrevocably because you killed the last settler of an extinquished civilization, that's YOUR fault - you know it can happen so if you let the civ pop out a settler, its your own problem.

If you have to do something stupid and anti-logical to play a game, its probably not a good game. At least that aspect of it. Parking an army of 12 outside a size 6 city just captured because you fear a culture flip that simply makes those units vanish from the face of the earth, with no chance of controlling the flip, or predicting the flip - well, that's just dumb gameplay. It needs to be fixed.
 
Originally posted by OneInTen


Read the post carefully. A big culture city does help, as it pushes the culture borders inside other cities radius, that reducing the number of squares that an enemy city can take away from your 21.
Sure. It can have an indirect effect in some situations. But the presence of high-culture cities nearby (yours or theirs) does not in itself affect the chance of flipping, according to Soren's list of factors.

BillC, to grow on your suggestion - it would fit with the feel of the game better if the Domestic advisor showed some sort of partisan indicator to show the amount of flipping stress each city is under, and the advisor herself quipped "The citizens of Alleghany long to join the glorious Aztec civilization!"

Oh, and :goodjob: Rhandom!
I wouldn't say bad programming, but definitely bad game design in this specific instance, in that it makes no sense and makes the game experience less rewarding.
Troops on the march just get more excited as they get close to the enemy capital. "The war will be over in time for us to be home for Christmas!" Do you think that Roosevelt or Stalin ever worried that their armies would defect while resting in cities near Berlin? It would make no sense, despite the fact that the culture rating of Germany was clearly far ahead of the Americans, at least! And if the garrison doesn't defect, the civilians have no chance of defeating them. It's exactly that kind of situation in the game that bugs me. Of course, the solution is clear. Raze all before you! But that kind of game is so not me... :(

-----------------
Ownership is determined partly by the culture of the two cities viing for the tile, and partly by the distance from each city. A 1000-culture city chich controls the tiles 4 squares away will lose out to a 10-culture city which can actually work those tiles. (i.e. 2 tiles away)

I started to draw this out graphically, but decided that this isn't the thread for it. I did see something new in my most recent game though - my border expanded into a tile which an enemy city had been controlling, even though it was two squares away from each city. I assume that happened when the culture of my city passed his (I had rushed a temple + library - love those Babs!) :love:
 
thanx for the info dan, was basically what i expected except for the 21 tile part and the units reducing flips (guess it is so minor its hard to notice)
 
What is "exposed" is the inherent FLAW in Civ III. :mad: :mad:

I once had a city of '4' flip on me with four full strength veteran and two elite Samurai units in it, with three cannon.

The entire garrison vanished into the air, and the city didn't even lose a population point!!! :crazyeyes :crazyeyes That was the same garrison that had earlier wiped out a Russian attack force of eight horsemen and four swordsmen.

It is abusrd.

And the low ranking of a garrsion regarding flipping stinks. And is dead wrong, historically and logically.

PATCH IT. Or we will just have to raze city after city, or station a garrison outside the city and destroy it if it flips. Of course then WE get labelled a "war-monger"!! :lol: What a farce.
 
Thanks Dan! :yeah:

It seems that the strategy of rushing a temple and other improvements in newly conquered cities is not that crucial, after all. While it still is very important in the long run, it won´t matter in the short term (say 1-5 rounds).

Again it seems we have been tricked by the random number generator, and that the rushed building or moved troops did not in fact do anything to the calculation, but just managed to change the random number.
 
I for one appreciate the feedback on the way that the various game elements are determined.

However, if I was a Firaxian, I would think twice about posting these sorts of things in the future. Why? Because there is the element that can't help but criticise them in every post thread they make.

And no, I'm not sucking up. I just don't want to see another useful thread hijacked by a few idiots.

Yes, there are a few issues to still be resolved, and I won't be drawn in to an arguement over business practices re testing etc. However, culture flipping is different. It may seem illogical to some players, but it is game design. The complainents have every right to disagree with the way it is, but it is Firaxis' choice. There is a marked difference between expressing an opinion and destructive criticism.

People, this is a GAME. OK - it is based on things we find familiar, but IT IS NOT BASED ON REALITY. Who cares if real-life cities don't have culture flips. They do in this GAME. In real life, you don't see spearmen stationed in Washington D.C. as part of the active garrison now do you, but how many of you have these in the modern age.

Can I ask of the most vocal (or actually literary) complainents what they do for a job? And how they would feel if the general public started rubbishing every business decision they make?

Enough already.
 
Good post. I have never been a 'yes man' or liked to have 'yes men' working for me. I sample opinions, and I think I have a duty to my employers to offer my opinion of plans, events, practices, etc.
I think it is important to a game developer to hear the criticisms that players feel, faults they find in the game, broken things, etc. It appears that Firaxis thinks that is important also, since they read these posts.
But criticism should be constructive, should offer an opinion on what the person thinks it should be.
I have criticised some things, and there are other things I really didnt like, but the game play that is good far outweighs the bad.
We need to express our opinion, and do. I think there are times when the random factor flips a city--or does not flip a city--which should not happen. Maybe that can be fixed.
In my current campaign I have lost two cities back to the original country. It is an acceptable risk. If one of my core cities suddenly became French, however, for no apparant reason.... then I would be most unhappy.
:goodjob:
 
As one of the biggest complainers about this, thanks for the info, Dan. Good to see you folks at Firaxis are serious about keeping up with your game-buying community.

R.III
 
Instead of having your entire garrison disappear when the city flips, how about moving them all one tile in the direction of the nearest friendly city, and reducing them all to one remaining hit point?

This way, they survive, but they're so badly damaged they can't (or at least should not) be used in an immediate counterattack to recapture the city.
:groucho:
 
Originally posted by BillChin
It can be argued that it is stupid and illogical to station a large garrison in a city where resistance is strong. Unless the troops are trained as police, they are not an effective policing force, especially in a foreign country. Troops will defect if they are exposed to a culture and life style that is far superior to their own. This is realistic.

Only one comment :
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ah, well, another one :
Come back from fantasyland and welcome on the real world, seems that you left it a long time ago :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I also appreciate Dan's post; it's nice to have more information on this. FWIW, city-flipping has not been a big problem for me. In fact, I benefit from it far more than I am hurt by it. My culture is usually higher than that of my AI opponents, and I absorb their cities far more often than they absorb mine.

Likewise, I've been hit by very few wartime flips. I garrison a newly-taken city with a number of obsolete units -- warriors, spearmen -- and hope to grind down the resistance. Meanwhile my tanks wait outside the city. Or, more likely, they move on to the next city. It does seem tough to lose all of one's garrison -- but I can understand that Firaxis is trying to make it tougher for us to conquer the world. That's ok by me. In general, I like the added challenge in Civ 3; this is one more example.

That said, I wouldn't mind a bit more information on the likelihood of a flip, as BillChin suggested.
 
Originally posted by ainwood
Can I ask of the most vocal (or actually literary) complainents what they do for a job? And how they would feel if the general public started rubbishing every business decision they make?
Hmm...am I literary? :)

I've complained vocally about this specific issue, but the game as a whole is addictive, challenging (I still haven't been able to win a GOTM first try without reloading or reading the spoilers!) and extremely entertaining. A few little tweaks, particularly to garrison/flips and auto-polution controlling workers, would save a lot of needless frustration though!

Yes, it's a game, but it's intended to be based on real life stuff. In real life it's silly to think that an army strong enough to wipe out the armed forces of an entire nation would be quaking at the thought of a peasant revolt in a single defeated city - I think that's clear. Firaxis has gone to great lengths to make other aspects realistic (culture in general, trade embargos and blockades, etc, etc.), but I think that the effect of garrisons was just an oversight.

Oh, and in answer to your question, I'm an IT Project Manager by trade. And where I work, the customer is always right! (Unless I can convince him different, of course!) :lol:
 
I'll concur on the loss of garrison. I was Rome last night, 1981, 3-4 techs ahead. Why the Greeks and Egyptions decided to gang up on me, I'll never know, I had been selling them techs everytime they had money.

I raze some cities, most ones the AI built too near me in the first place, but I wanted to keep this one as it had Colossus and Pyramids. I ran in with 2 tank armies and another dozen tanks as I had planned on steamrolling down the Greeks peninsula.

Three turns later, the city flips. Take both armies and all 12 tanks with it. Sort of put an end to my steamroller, you know? That was a major investment that just disappeared. At least the AI didn't get to keep my garrison and use it against me.

So I'm going back to razing and sending in a new settler.
 
The most obvious ways of avoiding flipping are:

1. USe artillery to bombard the population down... you can't seriously expect to take a 15+ population city and expect the population to be loyal to the invaders....!? In this day and age all wars around cities involve the use of shelling, look at Chechnya for an example!

Imagine London being taken by the French without any reduction in the population of English living there... you think they'd be sitting happy under French rule... no way!! Make sure you lay waste to the city using artillery before you attempt to take the city over.

2. Once the city is sufficiently battered, use marines, tanks, etc to clean up the battered defences.

I have never had a flipped city against me because i have always been taking over cities that i have substantially bombarded first. Then the regrowing process is a long one, but you can use captured workers or your own to increase the pop quickly.

3. Make sure your culture is higher or at least comparable to the culture of the enemy city, then the foreign resistors might actually want to join you. IF your culture is lower then just raze the cities instead.

Again since my culture is always a top priority i have never had a flipping city. Combine this with a serious bombardment first... = no problems. :)

4. Don't bother with huge garrisons. As stated by Firaxis, military presence is the worst factor involved in quelling resistance. One or 2 units should suffice.

I personally love the way its set at the moment. Great stuff Firaxis. :)
 
Originally posted by =DOCTOR=
The most obvious ways of avoiding flipping are:

1. USe artillery to bombard the population down... you can't seriously expect to take a 15+ population city and expect the population to be loyal to the invaders....!? In this day and age all wars around cities involve the use of shelling, look at Chechnya for an example!

Imagine London being taken by the French without any reduction in the population of English living there... you think they'd be sitting happy under French rule... no way!! Make sure you lay waste to the city using artillery before you attempt to take the city over.

2. Once the city is sufficiently battered, use marines, tanks, etc to clean up the battered defences.

I have never had a flipped city against me because i have always been taking over cities that i have substantially bombarded first. Then the regrowing process is a long one, but you can use captured workers or your own to increase the pop quickly.

3. Make sure your culture is higher or at least comparable to the culture of the enemy city, then the foreign resistors might actually want to join you. IF your culture is lower then just raze the cities instead.

Again since my culture is always a top priority i have never had a flipping city. Combine this with a serious bombardment first... = no problems. :)

4. Don't bother with huge garrisons. As stated by Firaxis, military presence is the worst factor involved in quelling resistance. One or 2 units should suffice.

I personally love the way its set at the moment. Great stuff Firaxis. :)

I deal with it the exact same way, and I have only once or twice, out of 50 or so games, had a city revert back to its former civ.:goodjob:
 
Originally posted by ripcord_tx
Why the Greeks and Egyptions decided to gang up on me, I'll never know, I had been selling them techs everytime they had money.

That's why they decided to gang up on you. If you're keeping the AI in the poorhouse by tech brokering, the easiest way out for them is to goto war with you. Sure their reputations take a hit, but all those gold per turn they've been paying to you are gone now and they've still got the tech. If you've got a "weak" military, all the more reason for them to do so.
 
"1. USe artillery to bombard the population down... you can't seriously expect to take a 15+ population city and expect the population to be loyal to the invaders....!? In this day and age all wars around cities involve the use of shelling, look at Chechnya for an example! "

This has zero effect in the game at all. Reread the rules. A big force can remove even 8 resistors in one turn, and I've never seen more than that. The fact remains that a size 1 city with a single happy citizen, 8 of your units, and no conection at all to the civ you took it from can flip. The reason is the "cultural memory effect" - if the city had several thousand culture already generated, NOTHING you do can overcome this penalty. While it may only be the third most significant factor, it is the one factor that you can do absolutely nothing about, and can be absolutely enormous by the 1500's. Reducing the city to a size 1 still doesn't change the fact that the city had 5 to 10K culture before you took it, and rush building every single cultural improvement available will still result in the old culture being higher than the new culture for the next 250+ turns. The only way to avoid it is to capture the cities before they can generate the culture, meaning conquest before the industrial age, or genocide of captured cities.

"3. Make sure your culture is higher or at least comparable to the culture of the enemy city, then the foreign resistors might actually want to join you. IF your culture is lower then just raze the cities instead.

Again since my culture is always a top priority i have never had a flipping city. Combine this with a serious bombardment first... = no problems"

I've seen dozens of cities flip to inferior overall cultures, even when I owned by 3:1.

"4. Don't bother with huge garrisons. As stated by Firaxis, military presence is the worst factor involved in quelling resistance. One or 2 units should suffice. "

Again, the exact opposite of reality and logic. Nothing keeps an occupied city from rebelling like the threat of military reprisal.

"Can I ask of the most vocal (or actually literary) complainents what they do for a job? And how they would feel if the general public started rubbishing every business decision they make? "

I'm a chemist by profession, and have programmed in the past, but I also write wargames as a hobby and side business, including a commercially available fantasy miniatures game "Armies of Arcana", and a half dozen other games in varying stages of release and testing. I deal with these same kinds of issues on a weekly basis, as people make suggestions or criticisize and I argue, consider and sometimes defend what I have done. I have NEVER copped out of an argument with the "well, you're no game writer, how dare you criticize me" defense. I've valued almost every bit of feedback I've recieved, and the very few griefer insulting people I've dealt with are easily recognized and ignored.

The best way to deal with criticism is to address it. The only reason you see increasingly hostile posts about aspects of this game are because Firaxis has stonewalled on those issues (orbeen very slow to respond to them, if you are in a more charitable mood), increasing aggrevation and allowing the fanboys more time to insult those who'd dare point out flaws. If you treat your customers with respect, even those who criticize you, you almost always get respect back. If you ignore or call your customers whiners with selective memories or unimportant opinions, you get what you deserve.

"However, if I was a Firaxian, I would think twice about posting these sorts of things in the future. Why? Because there is the element that can't help but criticise them in every post thread they make. "

This kind of post is the only reason I have given Firaxis another chance. The last GOTM was going to be my last game, because playing rapid conquest gets old real quick. This has renewed my hope that they may do something about it, and has definately recovered some lost respect merely by their willingness to comunicate openly. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

The people making honest criticisms and suggestions are not the people who hijack threads. It is the people who for some reason think they must defend firaxis by attacking those who post criticisms that hijack threads. If you disagree with what those of us who are critical are saying, then by all means, argue. Discussion is what makes games better. Insulting people like we have no right to express our opinions to firaxis, or we are stupid for thinking our ideas could be better than firaxis's, is what degenerates a thread.

"Oh, and Rhandom! I wouldn't say bad programming, but definitely bad game design in this specific instance, in that it makes no sense and makes the game experience less rewarding. "

Well, I'm not sure which it is. It could just be that the weighting of this factor is far higher that it is supposed to be, like a decimal is in the wrong place, or something is multiplied two or more times causing an exponential effect for the "memory" feature. I would think the numbers being generated should be easily checked during testing though, and so in that regard, to me it is bad programming. I do think it is bad design in any case, because the memory effect is really quite strange and utterly indefensible threat.
 
I have gotten some flak and ridicule for suggesting that troops will defect. I can not think of any good modern examples so my detractors have a point. However, they forget the grand time scale of the game.

As I think about it, most real life examples of mass defections involve people of the same culture in a civil war. Examples include the troops sent to fight Napoleon that instead joined up with him, or the Russian Imperials that refused to fire upon peasants armed with pitchforks when Tsar Nicholas ordered them to do so, or the South Vietnamese defecting in huge numbers to the North.

Again, in terms of the game, I think the loss of the entire stack is not the best solution, but it may be better than some of the options tried during development. I think the designers want culture flipping to be a significant part of the game and not some minor sideshow for the militarists. I think everyone would like some kind of warning, such as the domestic advisor piping up when a culture flip is likely to happen.
 
Originally posted by BillChin
I have gotten some flak and ridicule for suggesting that troops will defect. I can not think of any good modern examples so my detractors have a point. However, they forget the grand time scale of the game.

Soldiers defect units don't. The Romans had some problems with this. It was a very slow proccess and the Romans would send garisons in to a city for a hundred years. The problem was confined to units suffering atrition due to soldiers going native. It was only after they started using all german legions that entire units started to defect.
 
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