Culture Vs Science

[Redaxe]

Ok so explain it to me

So the tech tree is getting cut in half so presumably in a standard game it will be normal to have 15-20 turn times to research a technology.

But many of the culture themed 'technologies' from civ 4/5 are going into a new culture tree. Presumably things like pottery, literacy/drama & poetry, philosophy, mysticism, theology, guilds, civil service, education, chivalry/warrior tradition, architecture etc....

So are these cultural discoveries going to be unlocked in a linear culture tree or are there are going to be choices - i.e. you have to sacrifice some cultural discoveries to get others?

Also how do we unlock these cultural discoveries? is it through culture per turn? Culture is basically the other side to science?

And what about civics or social policies - is that going to be dependent on culture generation too or is there going to be a more complex system?

 

[Seek]

Check out Arioch's site for an overview of civ 6: http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ6_overview.html

 

[Plus Ultra]

Ok so explain it to me

There are several sources you could check.

-Arioch Civ VI page: http://well-of-souls.com/civ/
-Info Thread on this site
-Reddit Megathread
-Quill18 / Marborzir videos on Youtube with the pre-release gameplay.

Everything besides that is pure speculation. I do love speculation, so let's get started!

So the tech tree is getting cut in half so presumably in a standard game it will be normal to have 15-20 turn times to research a technology.

Games will probably last around the same time, if the tech tree is shorter, then more turns should be required to research a tech. So yes, this seems reasonable.

Eurekas seem more relevant precisely due to that.

But many of the culture themed 'technologies' from civ 4/5 are going into a new culture tree. Presumably things like pottery, literacy/drama & poetry, philosophy, mysticism, theology, guilds, civil service, education, chivalry/warrior tradition, architecture etc....

No one knows which former techs are now... "culture techs", but yes, that is the idea.

So are these cultural discoveries going to be unlocked in a linear culture tree or are there are going to be choices - i.e. you have to sacrifice some cultural discoveries to get others?

No idea, I expect the culture tree to be built in a "choose your path" structure, quite similar to the Civ V and VI tech trees.

Also how do we unlock these cultural discoveries? is it through culture per turn?

That makes sense, I can't imagine how else it would work.

And what about civics or social policies - is that going to be dependent on culture generation too or is there going to be a more complex system?

My guess is the new cultural tree is in charge of everything related to civics/social policies or government types.

We already know that goverment types are unlocked by certain "cultural techs", and we can choose between them.

 

[stealth_nsk]

The cultural tree itself is generally like the science tree. Governments and their options unlokeed with the tree are switchable.

 

[m15a]

What we know is that there is, in addition to the Tech Tree, a Civics Tree. The Civics Tree works somewhat like the Tech Tree, but it uses culture instead of science (and yields "Civics" instead of "Technologies"). We don't know anything about the layout of the Civics Tree (or Tech Tree) - whether it's more linear, whether there are options that can be skipped, etc.

Within the Civics Tree, there are Governments that are unlocked. Each Government has a number of slots that are filled with something like social policies or Civ-IV-style civics - those social policy/civics things are called "cards" (and maybe have another name in game, too). Those cards are unlocked within the Civics Tree as well.

 

[Redaxe]

Thanks for the response.

I hope to that they don't view governments in some sort of evolution from despotism > monarchy > republic > democracy like the old civs did.

The Greeks and Romans may have had various forms of democracies or republics but they often led to stagnation and corruption ended being replaced by a monarchy of all things...

One only need read up on how Tiberius Gracchus was disgusted to see how the republic was content to conscript roman men into the legions and then take over their land so when they returned from duty they lived in slums in Rome.

 

[m15a]

Thanks for the response.

I hope to that they don't view governments in some sort of evolution from despotism > monarchy > republic > democracy like the old civs did.

The Greeks and Romans may have had various forms of democracies or republics but they often led to stagnation and corruption ended being replaced by a monarchy of all things...

One only need read up on how Tiberius Gracchus was disgusted to see how the republic was content to conscript roman men into the legions and then take over their land so when they returned from duty they lived in slums in Rome.

We already know there is an early game "classical republic". And there's also a "monarchy" government later on, which is probably at least in part better than the classical republic.

 

[Plus Ultra]

We already know there is an early game "classical republic". And there's also a "monarchy" government later on, which is probably at least in part better than the classical republic.

From Arioch Well of Souls page: http://well-of-souls.com/civ/civ6_overview.html

Known government types and their associated bonuses and policy slot types:

Chiefdom; 1 military, 1 economic
Classical Republic (bonus to Amenities and Great People generation); 2 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard
Oligarchy (bonus to yields in capital and Wonder production); 1 military, 1 economic, 1 diplomatic, 1 wildcard
Autocracy (bonus to unit melee strength and XP); 2 military, 1 economic, 1 wildcard
Monarchy (?)
Theocracy (?)
(Plutocracy) (?)

It seems, rather than worse-->better, the idea is to make goverment types go from simple-->complex.

That complexity, in Civ VI, means "more cards"

The type of goverments available for each era will have similar complexity, but different card slots distribution. (more military, or more diplomacy, for example).
In adition, every goverment type will have some unique perks.

The system seems very elegant to me. As long as those "cards" are interesting, I think it will be a great addition to Civ.

 

[Redaxe]

We already know there is an early game "classical republic". And there's also a "monarchy" government later on, which is probably at least in part better than the classical republic.

Excellent. I wonder if they will allow hybrid governments. An interesting example is Byzantium. Unjustly maligned by enlightenment scholars as a despotic and autocratic theocracy but it was actually quite a sophisticated and robust system of government.
In Byzantium you had
- Emperor
- Senate (who could influence laws and government - at times they even helped to depose incompetent emperors and voted to elect a new emperor)
- Army (A general would often take over as emperor if the state was in a crisis)
- People (The hippodrome was a public venue where citizens could have some interaction with or at least view their Emperor) - that was quite unique in the ancient and medieval world - where despots were usually confined to the palace.
- Church (Patriarch would crown the emperor and helped to act as a moral stabiliser - keeping the emperor morally accountable). For instance under orthodox canon law Emperors were not permitted to have harems or engage in other behavior that could cause a scandal.

But basically the point here is you had a very complex and ancient form of government that was quite robust and able to survive multiple crises. In contrast the Carolingians fell apart soon after Charlemagne - so that monarchy did not have the stability that the Byzantine system did. Emperors were certainly not seen as a special representative of God - although the office of emperor was probably respected in that manner. But one only need to see how often Emperors get replaced to realise this - in reality the Emperor was probably closer to the role of a President. He could only have authority so long as he had support of the army, the people and senate. If he proved incapable of ruling he would usually be replaced. And this was done via mutilation - while it sounds cruel the mutilation by cutting a nose off for instance would mean that that the deposed Emperor could no longer assume office - as the Emperor could not be physically deformed. So in a way it was a more humane way of handling an exchange of power considering that it generally a violent period of human history.

 

[Redaxe]

So I think its fantastic that culture will play a more fundamental part to your civs progress - it will certainly allow for a much more immersive experience - anything to break up that "must have national college by turn 50", "must have education by turn 80" etc...

 

[AriochIV]

Excellent. I wonder if they will allow hybrid governments. An interesting example is Byzantium. Unjustly maligned by enlightenment scholars as a despotic and autocratic theocracy

Who knows? Maybe a civilization might have a Unique Government.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Excellent. I wonder if they will allow hybrid governments. .

Probably not directly.

I would guess they would have an array of different governments, but you couldn't take any two and create a new one.

They will however have the different policies that you can swap... so Maybe you could have "Monarchy" with an 'elected ministers' policy, or a 'free speech' policy or 'independent judiciary' policy (or some combination of all 3 of those)


I do like the idea of a Unique Government, or even a unique Policy


I personally hope that going for the Space Race will require Policies/national wonders/buildings/districts from the end of the civic tree, as well as the end of the science tree.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for a civ to always have an extra slot. Like Germany always has an extra military slot or something like that.

 

[Plus Ultra]

It wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for a civ to always have an extra slot. Like Germany always has an extra military slot or something like that.

Extra slot / unique card / unique goverment type. I'm counting on it.

 

[Josephias]

Excellent. I wonder if they will allow hybrid governments. An interesting example is Byzantium. Unjustly maligned by enlightenment scholars as a despotic and autocratic theocracy but it was actually quite a sophisticated and robust system of government.
In Byzantium you had
- Emperor
- Senate (who could influence laws and government - at times they even helped to depose incompetent emperors and voted to elect a new emperor)
- Army (A general would often take over as emperor if the state was in a crisis)
- People (The hippodrome was a public venue where citizens could have some interaction with or at least view their Emperor) - that was quite unique in the ancient and medieval world - where despots were usually confined to the palace.
- Church (Patriarch would crown the emperor and helped to act as a moral stabiliser - keeping the emperor morally accountable). For instance under orthodox canon law Emperors were not permitted to have harems or engage in other behavior that could cause a scandal.

In part, to represent this is why they are adding "policy slots" to different governments. A more complex government (i.e. Classical Imperium), can have more "card" slots, which can be economic, military, diplomatic or wilcard (any type), allowing you to run more policies. You also develop trough civics: therefore, if the civic tree is branched, you may need to decide whether to push wide (improved government with more slots) or deep (more/improved policies to fill these slots). If you are culturally-rich (i.e. bizantium), you will probably have both: more slots, and better policies.

Additionally, they can represent the more versatile governments by giving them more wilcard slots, allowing them to switch from economy-focus to military-focus. A change of policies is likely to leave you in anarchy for some turns (altough it seems you get a free change when you unlock new cards). However, probably a change of government leads you to an increased time of anarchy. -- And, going downhill to the realm of speculation, there may be different levels of anarchy, from "light" anarchy (government policies rearrangement - you just don't get the social policy bonuses immediately), to old-fashioned empire-stopping anarchy (that should be linked to government changes).

Therefore, for Bizantium, the "Oriental Empire" government type should at least have:
A slot for a diplomatic/economy card: "Senate", improving culture and commerce (reducing corruption). Maybe also happines.
A second economy card: "Hyppodrome games", improved over the more classigal "Arena games", with important bonuses to happines.
Yet a third economy card or a wilcard: "State Religión": bonuses to faith and happiness.
And a slot for a military card: "Military Aristocracy", or two (both "Military Aristocracy", that could also be shared with other medieval empires, and "Organized Army"), Military aristocracy may provide the hapiness bonus by garrisoned units, while organized army may reduce maintenance costs, in example.

A different "Oriental Empire" (i.e. Palmira), could use a different set of cards so, except for the base bonus, be a completely different goverments. And if they want to make trully agile governments, they could make the bonus for a government be the policy-change interim is reduced.

But this is just fiction-speculation as it is now. This is a neat feature I think many at the fórum are expecting to see detailed with interface screenshots and developer comment... and it is time for a new batch of info, isn't it?

 

[Redaxe]

In part, to represent this is why they are adding "policy slots" to different governments. A more complex government (i.e. Classical Imperium), can have more "card" slots, which can be economic, military, diplomatic or wilcard (any type), allowing you to run more policies. You also develop trough civics: therefore, if the civic tree is branched, you may need to decide whether to push wide (improved government with more slots) or deep (more/improved policies to fill these slots). If you are culturally-rich (i.e. bizantium), you will probably have both: more slots, and better policies.

Additionally, they can represent the more versatile governments by giving them more wilcard slots, allowing them to switch from economy-focus to military-focus. A change of policies is likely to leave you in anarchy for some turns (altough it seems you get a free change when you unlock new cards). However, probably a change of government leads you to an increased time of anarchy. -- And, going downhill to the realm of speculation, there may be different levels of anarchy, from "light" anarchy (government policies rearrangement - you just don't get the social policy bonuses immediately), to old-fashioned empire-stopping anarchy (that should be linked to government changes).

Therefore, for Bizantium, the "Oriental Empire" government type should at least have:
A slot for a diplomatic/economy card: "Senate", improving culture and commerce (reducing corruption). Maybe also happines.
A second economy card: "Hyppodrome games", improved over the more classigal "Arena games", with important bonuses to happines.
Yet a third economy card or a wilcard: "State Religión": bonuses to faith and happiness.
And a slot for a military card: "Military Aristocracy", or two (both "Military Aristocracy", that could also be shared with other medieval empires, and "Organized Army"), Military aristocracy may provide the hapiness bonus by garrisoned units, while organized army may reduce maintenance costs, in example.

A different "Oriental Empire" (i.e. Palmira), could use a different set of cards so, except for the base bonus, be a completely different goverments. And if they want to make trully agile governments, they could make the bonus for a government be the policy-change interim is reduced.

But this is just fiction-speculation as it is now. This is a neat feature I think many at the fórum are expecting to see detailed with interface screenshots and developer comment... and it is time for a new batch of info, isn't it?

That does sound quite interesting and yes im guessing it will be quite close to the mark. I'd say to that a Wonder (maybe the Oracle?) will grant an extra wild card.

Your thoughts on how Byzantium would function are interesting. It would be great to keep the bonus religious belief and also have a bonus wildcard in every government. Speculation I know but it would certainly make it quite a robust civ.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

In part, to represent this is why they are adding "policy slots" to different governments. A more complex government (i.e. Classical Imperium), can have more "card" slots, which can be economic, military, diplomatic or wilcard (any type), allowing you to run more policies. You also develop trough civics: therefore, if the civic tree is branched, you may need to decide whether to push wide (improved government with more slots) or deep (more/improved policies to fill these slots). If you are culturally-rich (i.e. bizantium), you will probably have both: more slots, and better policies.

Additionally, they can represent the more versatile governments by giving them more wilcard slots, allowing them to switch from economy-focus to military-focus. A change of policies is likely to leave you in anarchy for some turns (altough it seems you get a free change when you unlock new cards). However, probably a change of government leads you to an increased time of anarchy. -- And, going downhill to the realm of speculation, there may be different levels of anarchy, from "light" anarchy (government policies rearrangement - you just don't get the social policy bonuses immediately), to old-fashioned empire-stopping anarchy (that should be linked to government changes).

Therefore, for Bizantium, the "Oriental Empire" government type should at least have:
A slot for a diplomatic/economy card: "Senate", improving culture and commerce (reducing corruption). Maybe also happines.
A second economy card: "Hyppodrome games", improved over the more classigal "Arena games", with important bonuses to happines.
Yet a third economy card or a wilcard: "State Religión": bonuses to faith and happiness.
And a slot for a military card: "Military Aristocracy", or two (both "Military Aristocracy", that could also be shared with other medieval empires, and "Organized Army"), Military aristocracy may provide the hapiness bonus by garrisoned units, while organized army may reduce maintenance costs, in example.

A different "Oriental Empire" (i.e. Palmira), could use a different set of cards so, except for the base bonus, be a completely different goverments. And if they want to make trully agile governments, they could make the bonus for a government be the policy-change interim is reduced.

But this is just fiction-speculation as it is now. This is a neat feature I think many at the fórum are expecting to see detailed with interface screenshots and developer comment... and it is time for a new batch of info, isn't it?

Actually there is no reported anarchy for switching policy cards it is either
1. free (when you get new cards)
OR
2. costs gold

#2 might be prohibitive, but there is no mention of anarchy (although there might be for changing governments)