Curious - why no Sikhs in Civ4?

[GuoYuanQiaoZhi1]

This is an iDEA for Civ4 SE asia maps

Religions
Lamaism holy City (HC) Lhasa, Tibet
Thervada Buddhism HC Krung Thep, Thailand
Shinto HC Osaka, Japan
Zen Buddhism HC NONE
Hinduism HC Benares, India
Confucianism HC ???
Taoism HC Donjing, (China)

Civs

HUMAN (playble)
Tibet - Dalai Lama
Thailand - King Bhumibol Adelajey
Japan - Shogun Tokagawa Ueyasiu
China - Emporeer Qin Shi Huang
India - Asoka
Mongolia - Genghis Khan

CPU
Khmer - ???
Laos - ???
Dutch (arrive at c.1600AD) - King William IIII
Barbarian - non contactable - none ALWAYS WAR

QS

1. How do I modify religions and their icons
2. How do I create new CIV

Please reply, civfanatics

 

[GuoYuanQiaoZhi1]

Honestly, I think Sikhism should've been included over Judiasm, not because of how brave Sikhs are, but mostly because of the fact that it's a much larger religion than Judiasm.

It not the size of a religion that matters, but culture impact. Without Judaism, we would no have Islam or Christian, so the religious impact judaism makes is

2 billion Christians
1 Billion Islams
13.5mn Jews

Which mean that judaism accounts for creation of Half world religion
that is exterme importance

 

[Huayna Capac357]

They should have for religions (did I say this already???):

M=Starts with Missionary

1. Christianity (Theology) M
2. Judaism (Monotheism)
3. Islam (Divine Right) M
4. Hinduism (Polytheism)
5. Buddhism (Meditation)
6. Jainism (Priesthood)
7. Sikhism (Iron Working) M
8. Baha'i (Scientific Method)
9. Zoroastrianism (Dualism?)
10. Confucianism (Code of Laws) M
11. Daoism (Philosophy) M
12. Cao Dai (Radio) M

 

[Wodan]

I think most Christians and Muslims would be offended by the idea that either religion came into being because of Judaism or that either religion was an offshoot of Judaism. Most likely they would say that, if Judaism had never occurred, Jesus or Mohammed would have been born and lived their life much the same as it really happened, and that they would have had their divine inspiration/influences just the same.

Anyway.... that's religion for ya.

Personally I feel it's pretty clear that Christianity and Islam both borrowed pretty heavily from other religions.

Wodan

 

[Squarg]

I think most Christians and Muslims would be offended by the idea that either religion came into being because of Judaism or that either religion was an offshoot of Judaism. Most likely they would say that, if Judaism had never occurred, Jesus or Mohammed would have been born and lived their life much the same as it really happened, and that they would have had their divine inspiration/influences just the same.

Anyway.... that's religion for ya.

Personally I feel it's pretty clear that Christianity and Islam both borrowed pretty heavily from other religions.

Wodan

As I say about the Israeli crisis: "Jews and Moslems, the same people separated by a common ancestry."

 

[Shirastro]

I think most Christians and Muslims would be offended by the idea that either religion came into being because of Judaism or that either religion was an offshoot of Judaism. Most likely they would say that, if Judaism had never occurred, Jesus or Mohammed would have been born and lived their life much the same as it really happened, and that they would have had their divine inspiration/influences just the same.

Anyway.... that's religion for ya.

Personally I feel it's pretty clear that Christianity and Islam both borrowed pretty heavily from other religions.

Wodan

Dont be so naive. While im sure there are idiots out there that would deny the influence of Judaism on Christianity or Islam, you cant deny that the old testament is still part of the "Christian" bible, and that Muslims consider Abraham (and Jesus) as true prophets that came before Mohamed or that it was Archangel Gabriel (a figure coming from Judaism)that whispered Gods words to Mohamed's ear so that he would memorize them and turn them into Koran.

Its one thing to be antisemitic, but this way you would just be stupid.

The whole debate about should Judaism be in the game or not, is ridiculous IMO.


And about this whole Sikh "debate"........i cant believe that a Poland thread got this long....and its not even a valid one either.

Edit: I'm not calling you antisemitic Wodan, i was speaking in general.

 

[Wodan]

What I said has nothing to do with Semites. All I meant was that, to a true believer of ANY religion (except for paganism), not just Christianity or Islam, their faith would dictate that their religion is the one true religion, and that it would have come about regardless of what had come before. That's pretty much the definition of "faith".

And, I clearly said that *I* didn't believe that.

Wodan

 

[AmazonQueen]

What I said has nothing to do with Semites. All I meant was that, to a true believer of ANY religion (except for paganism), not just Christianity or Islam, their faith would dictate that their religion is the one true religion, and that it would have come about regardless of what had come before. That's pretty much the definition of "faith".

And, I clearly said that *I* didn't believe that.

Wodan

A Christian or Muslim might say that but a religious historian would see clear influence on them from Judaism. Arguably Zorasterism should have been included as it is probable that it was the first monotheistic faith and that it was Zorastian influence that changed Judaism from worship of a tribal God to true monotheism.

 

[Wodan]

A Christian or Muslim might say that but a religious historian would see clear influence on them from Judaism. Arguably Zorasterism should have been included as it is probable that it was the first monotheistic faith and that it was Zorastian influence that changed Judaism from worship of a tribal God to true monotheism.

Influence does not imply a cause & effect relationship. I think that's what we're dancing around here.

My house has things done by the previous owners. But that doesn't mean if they had never lived here that I wouldn't be living in this house now, or even that some of the things wouldn't have happened anyway.

Anyway.... enough on all that.

Wodan

 

[Rotty]

This is an iDEA for Civ4 SE asia maps

Religions
Lamaism holy City (HC) Lhasa, Tibet
Thervada Buddhism HC Krung Thep, Thailand
Shinto HC Osaka, Japan
Zen Buddhism HC NONE
Hinduism HC Benares, India
Confucianism HC ???
Taoism HC Donjing, (China)

I don't see how it makes sense to have multiple Buddhist sects with holy cities in places like Thailand while leaving out Bodhgaya, particularly not when you have just one Hinduism rather than Vaishnavas, Shaivas, etc...

 

[Huayna Capac357]

That's pretty much the definition of "faith".
Wodan

NO! Faith is believing in God because you know that it is right, not because someone told you to.

 

[mikels]

Would a Sikh civilization have Harbajhan Singh as its UU? Would it have an attack bonus against darker skinned civs?

 

[Martin79]

I would always take more civilizations - and leaders, but IMO the game doesn't need more religions.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Number of religions should vary with the number of civs in the game IMO. There should be about 10 techs than found a religion, but depending on the number of civs playing only the first x should actualy found a religion, the others would just do nothing that game.

Good idea
With mods and a good computer you can play with 30+ civs on a map that makes huge look small. I think the game could use 10 or so religions then whereas on a tiny map even 7 can be too many.

 

[Mike Hussey]

It struck me as odd that whilst Civ4 has a number of religions, it omits the Sikhs, when Sikhism is the 5th largest organised religion in the world. Why is that?

It's especially odd given that Sikhs are an extremely martial race, with the elite Nihang mirroring many aspects of the ancient Spartans. Surely ideal for a game like this?

There are numerous special units they could have too such as the Akalis (immortals), who were unbelievably ferocious warriors. They later developed into the Nihang warriors, who can be seen wandering fully armed around Punjab even today (N W India).

On a weapons basis they ALL carry swords, but many carry Chakras and spears. All Akali were mounted, and many (most?) Nihang are.

Today they practice the Sikh martial art of Gatka, which is a somewhat watered down version of the original military training of the Nihang from 200 years ago.

The Sikhs were also the only Indians to beat British forces regularly on the battlefield (better sharper weapons, better armour, and more ferocious). Small numbers of them often defeated much larger Mughal, Persian and Afghan armies.

Surely a no brainer for the next add on?



They also have a couple of obvious leaders for use in the game: the warrior Emperor, Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and also General Akali Phula Singh who is a very well known and respected leader of the Nihang from about 200 years ago. Even the Emperor bowed to the general's authority.

Hey Jas!

If you want it so badly, then why don't you go and create another Civilisation expansion or modpack with the Sikh religion in it?

 

[Jas]

Hey Jas!

If you want it so badly, then why don't you go and create another Civilisation expansion or modpack with the Sikh religion in it?

Simply because I don't have the IT skills to do it

If the game was easily configurable for people with near zero IT skill, I'd have already tried it.

 

[nzcamel]

I think most Christians and Muslims would be offended by the idea that either religion came into being because of Judaism or that either religion was an offshoot of Judaism. Most likely they would say that, if Judaism had never occurred, Jesus or Mohammed would have been born and lived their life much the same as it really happened, and that they would have had their divine inspiration/influences just the same.

Anyway.... that's religion for ya.

Personally I feel it's pretty clear that Christianity and Islam both borrowed pretty heavily from other religions.

Wodan

While not all Christians will agree, I think you'll find that most take the view that Christianity and Judaism are linked very closely. Paul in the Bible says that Christianity is an 'offshoot' of Judaism! (The Bible; Romans 11:11 - 11:24 esp. 11:17-20)

We (speaking for any Christian who does see it this way) would view it that both Judaism and Christianity were in God's plan. It's kinda like the whole tadpole changing into a frog thing. You can't have one without the other. The 1st 3/4's of the Christian bible(The old testament) is made up of different Jewish holy writings. We do think though that the Jewish writings are full of hidden references to Jesus Christ, some more obvious than others (eg the Bible; Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12). So to us it's not that God simply changed his mind on what he wanted to do; he just took his time in introducing his full plan!

We see that in the Bible that the Jews are God's chosen people; and the New Testament (Christian writings only) carries on this theme. A real world example of this is the U.S.'s support for Isreal in the middle east (I'm not saying it's the only reason they back them, but it's a big one.) If a Jew converts to Christianity we have a special name for them: Messianic Jews. They are still in a way seen to be Jewish! The bible also suggests that in the end times the Jews and Christians will get alot closer. The last verse in the Romans quote that I quoted to begin with (Romans 11:24) suggests that God isn't finished with the Jews as a seperate group to Christians. So it's not entirely a case of them or us.

But there will be Christians who disagree with this (although I challenge them to look at the verses in Romans 11; and if they are going to post against this they should back up their stance with scripture) and as far as I'm aware it's certainly not how the Jews view it.

 

[Wodan]

While not all Christians will agree, I think you'll find that most take the view that Christianity and Judaism are linked very closely. Paul in the Bible says that Christianity is an 'offshoot' of Judaism! (The Bible; Romans 11:11 - 11:24 esp. 11:17-20)

We (speaking for any Christian who does see it this way) would view it that both Judaism and Christianity were in God's plan. It's kinda like the whole tadpole changing into a frog thing. You can't have one without the other. The 1st 3/4's of the Christian bible(The old testament) is made up of different Jewish holy writings. We do think though that the Jewish writings are full of hidden references to Jesus Christ, some more obvious than others (eg the Bible; Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12). So to us it's not that God simply changed his mind on what he wanted to do; he just took his time in introducing his full plan!

We see that in the Bible that the Jews are God's chosen people; and the New Testament (Christian writings only) carries on this theme. A real world example of this is the U.S.'s support for Isreal in the middle east (I'm not saying it's the only reason they back them, but it's a big one.) If a Jew converts to Christianity we have a special name for them: Messianic Jews. They are still in a way seen to be Jewish! The bible also suggests that in the end times the Jews and Christians will get alot closer. The last verse in the Romans quote that I quoted to begin with (Romans 11:24) suggests that God isn't finished with the Jews as a seperate group to Christians. So it's not entirely a case of them or us.

But there will be Christians who disagree with this (although I challenge them to look at the verses in Romans 11; and if they are going to post against this they should back up their stance with scripture) and as far as I'm aware it's certainly not how the Jews view it.

When Christianity is founded before Judaism in a game of Civ, the people on that world feel that God's plan is unfolding just fine.

I imagine their version of Romans 11 is different from ours.

Wodan

 

[nzcamel]

Well said

 

[Huayna Capac357]

Christianity isn't an offshoot of Judaism! Jesus in fact refutes all of the Jewish dietary, moral, etc. laws. Judaism is only open to you if you follow the EXACT rules. Christianity is open to everyone. All one has to do is repent. Jesus doesn't care if you eat lizards or pigs or weasels, etc.