Curious - why no Sikhs in Civ4?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Jas, Oct 23, 2007.

  1. Jas

    Jas Chieftain

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    It struck me as odd that whilst Civ4 has a number of religions, it omits the Sikhs, when Sikhism is the 5th largest organised religion in the world. Why is that?

    It's especially odd given that Sikhs are an extremely martial race, with the elite Nihang mirroring many aspects of the ancient Spartans. Surely ideal for a game like this?

    There are numerous special units they could have too such as the Akalis (immortals), who were unbelievably ferocious warriors. They later developed into the Nihang warriors, who can be seen wandering fully armed around Punjab even today (N W India).

    On a weapons basis they ALL carry swords, but many carry Chakras and spears. All Akali were mounted, and many (most?) Nihang are.

    Today they practice the Sikh martial art of Gatka, which is a somewhat watered down version of the original military training of the Nihang from 200 years ago.

    The Sikhs were also the only Indians to beat British forces regularly on the battlefield (better sharper weapons, better armour, and more ferocious). Small numbers of them often defeated much larger Mughal, Persian and Afghan armies.

    Surely a no brainer for the next add on?



    They also have a couple of obvious leaders for use in the game: the warrior Emperor, Maharaja Ranjit Singh, and also General Akali Phula Singh who is a very well known and respected leader of the Nihang from about 200 years ago. Even the Emperor bowed to the general's authority.
     
  2. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    personally, if there were eight to nine religions, i would put in Sikhism. HOWEVER, althuogh i did not know this before, someone on the forums did, in an ancient thread, show WHY a religion like Sikhism is not in Civ4.

    Simple: If a religion is a major religion today, AND IF it has spread beyond its in massive and influential numbers, THEN it is in Civ4.

    So, in the game, we have...

    Buddhism: Came out of India, now all over Asia (and even used to be in parts of the Middle East!) and even influential to American Pop Cultuer

    Christianity: Out of Jerusalem, all over the world now

    Islam: Out of Arabia, pretty much all of the Middle East, North Africa, Indonesia...

    Hinduism: Though at lot in India, it has important influence elsewhere in lands around the Indian ocean, such as Indonesia.

    Confucianism: From China, pretty much dominates all of East Asian culture

    Taoism: Same as above.


    The only real "exception" could be considered Judaism, but even so, there are many types of Jews - Slavic Jews, Italian Jews, American Jews, Arabic Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Indian Jews, Chinese Jews, even (descendants of Inca) Incan Jews and japanese Jews!

    And so, all the religions already in the game have spread from their homelands and moderately to heavily influenced neighborhooding cultures and peoples. Unfortuantely, as far as i know, Sikhism really hasn't gone much beyond India.
     
  3. HiroHito

    HiroHito Prince

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    you bet the Sikh are badass, story time:

    Battle of Saragarhi

    The Battle of Saragarhi, and the Sikh officers and soldiers (British Empire Army) who fought in it, is considered one of the greatest stories of collective bravery in human history. UNESCO has described the Battle of Saragarhi, September 12 1897, as one of eight stories of collective bravery.The contingent of the twenty-one Sikhs from the 36th Sikhs was led by Havildar Ishar Singh, and held off an Afghan attack of 10,000 men. All 21 Sikh soldiers chose to fight to the death instead of surrendering; the Afghans later admitted "they had lost 4,800 men during the engagement"

    In the West, it has been compared to the Battle of Thermopylae.


    from Wikipedia.
     
  4. Antilogic

    Antilogic --

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    The Firaxians said they also went with large, easily identifiable religions that had relatively long histories. Long histories, Sikhism is young but covered (as is Zoroastrianism on long history, the other religion I think only barely missed the cut). But as for easily identifiable...I don't think so. Considering the target audience, that is.

    There are no special religious units in Civ4, so having them for the Sikhs is both unnecessary and unfair to the non-Sikh religions. I seriously doubt the Firaxians will introduce any sort of differentiation in the religions beyond graphics to avoid confrontation with different religious groups.
     
  5. CivFan87

    CivFan87 Chieftain

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    Funny how you mention why there's no sikh religion in your post but then towards the end of it it sounds like you want a sikh civilization in the game
     
  6. PotatoSamurai

    PotatoSamurai ChooseReligion enthusiast

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    I personally think that it's because they only wanted a given number of religions, on top of the fact that India already has two in the game.

    I still think that leaving out Zoroastrianism was a bad idea, though. Had an incredible impact on Judaism, and from that Christianity, and was the state religion of the Persian Empire.
     
  7. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    true. it did sound funny.
     
  8. Jas

    Jas Chieftain

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    You are quite correct :)

    I started thinking there should be a Sikh religion in the game, but the more I thought about it, I realised the more interesting thing for the game would in fact be a Sikh civ i.e. given the choice between the two, I'd go for the civ over the religion :goodjob:

    I hope that makes it clearer.
     
  9. Jas

    Jas Chieftain

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    That's fair enough, and I agree that Judaism kind of falls into the same catagory.

    The point being that Sikhs do not ever have missionaries or attampt to spread the religion. That would run counter to one of its core beliefs i.e. that all religions are simply different paths to God.
     
  10. Jas

    Jas Chieftain

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    Good point, and a relatively modern battle.

    The 21 Sikhs killed 180 Afghans and wounded countless more, per the Afghans own count. The Sikhs ran out of ammunition in the end, and fought hand to hand with bayonets to the death.

    There were numerous older battles too, which are not well recorded as the British were on the losing side of the engagements. Or even older battles with Mughals etc.
     
  11. Jas

    Jas Chieftain

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    HiroHito, your message prompted me to take a look on Wikipedia, and I located a very moving account of the battle taken from the heliograph communications between the signaller in the outpost, and Col. Haughten in Fort Lockhart, which was in direct line of sight.

    Here is the account:




    The Battle of Saraghari is considered fairly accurate in accounts, due to Gurmukh Singh and Col. Haughten signalling the events to one another.

    Around 9.00am, up to 14,000 Afghans reach the signalling post at Saragarhi. From 1,000 yards away, they commence heavy firing.

    Sardar Gurmukh Singh signals to Col. Haughten, situated in Fort Lockhart, that they are under attack.

    Col. Haughten states he cannot send immediate help to Saragarhi.

    The Sikhs decide to fight to the last man, last round, to prevent the enemy reaching the forts. Naik Lal Singh, Bhagwan Singh & Jiwa Singh come out of the post and start firing back, and kill a credible number of Afghans.

    Bhagwan Singh becomes the first martyr, Lal Singh is seriously wounded.

    Lal Singh continues to fight with Jiwa Singh, as they carry the dead body of Bhagwan Singh back to the inner sanctions of the post.

    S. Gurmukh Singh continues to give signals to Col. Haughten, describing the battle step by step.

    The enemy are able to break a portion of the wall of the picket. Ishar Singh & his men refuse to retreat and stand ground.

    Col. Haughten signals that he has estimated between 12,000 – 14,000 Pashtuns attacking Saraghari.

    Wave after wave of Afghanis attack the post, but the Sikhs continually repulse them.

    The leaders of the Afghan forces make tempting promises for the Sikhs to surrender, but Ishar Singh and the Sikhs ignore and continue to fight.

    The Sikhs hold off the attacks for a considerable time, whilst Col. Haughten makes two attempts to send aid to the post, but both are thwarted by the tribals.

    Two determined attempts are made to rush the now battered and open gate but both are repulsed.

    Gurmakh Singh signals that the enemy is suffering heavy casualties, but the defenders are reducing in number too, with ammunition reducing rapidly.

    More repeated attacks fail as the battle lasts the best part of a day, and the tired and bothered Afghans decide to set fire to the bushes and shrubs.

    Within the smoke, two Pashtuns manage to close into the posts boundry walls, and succeed in making a breech.

    Fort Lockhart signals the breech, and two Singhs dispatch to the breach of the wall. However, this weakens the main gate covering fire, and the enemy rush the gate. They now breach the gate and the wall.

    Thereafter, one of the fiercest hand-to-hand fighting occurs. The Sikhs, to the shouts of “Bole So Nihal…Sat Sri Akaal” (the Sikh war cry), charge at the Afghans. Although seriously wounded, they fight off many of them.

    Gurmukh Singh reports the death of each officer. Col. Haughten stated that they can now send help.

    The leader of the Afghans asks the Singhs to surrender, that no help is coming, as the Afghans are at Fort Lockhart as well halting the aid, and that they will be set free upon surrender, with a safe passage to Kohat.

    Ishar Singh replies that the Sikhs never surrender, and that the biggest sin would be to surrender & not fight to their death, thus upholding the religious beliefs, tradition & greatest honour of Sikh religion. At the time only 7 Sikhs remained.

    In an act of outstanding bravery, Ishar Singh orders his men to fall back into the inner sanction. He jams the door shut, and armed with 2 rifles and his kirpan, he single-handedly takes on wave after wave of Afghan attack, positioning himself between the walk and the inner wall. After killing many Afghans, the great leader becomes a martyr.

    The enemy start climbing the inner wall of the picket where the last of the Sikhs were. Only 2 Sikhs remain. They wrestled the Pashtuns down and fought with their swords and bayonets.

    Gurmakh Singh signals to Col. Haughten that they had waited for a long time now but no assistance had come. He stated that if ammunition could be sent, they could hold the enemy for longer, however, all routes where blocked by the enemy. He stated that he and the Sikhs had fulfilled their duty and obeyed all orders.

    Col. Haughten stated that he was the only Sikh remaining in the post.
    Gurmakh Singh signalled his last message: “Brothers, we have served our Guru and our Emperor and now we take leave…for ever.” (The last message signalled)

    Gurmakh Singh put down his equipment, unsheathed his sword and charged at the remaining thousand Afghans. Col. Haughton watched as Gurmukh Singh killed 20 Pashtuns becoming a martyr.

    The Afghans, already with considerable soldiers killed & wounded, by the 21 Singhs, burnt the whole of the post to the ground.

    The British assistance arrived in due time, and the Afghans fled the post and retreated to the mountains. Besides the mutilated remains of the brave Sikhs, all they found was the Gurmukh Singh’s heliograph which was still intact inside its singed leather case. Every defender of Saragarhi had laid down his life to the last man and to the last bullet.

    Only on the next day, was a relief column able to reach Saragarhi. Later on, the attackers admitted to having lost 180 men and many more wounded. However, some estimates range up to 600 Afghanis killed.




    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saragarhi#Saragarhi_.26_Thermopylae
     
  12. BeyondCivilized

    BeyondCivilized Warlord

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    wow
    sounds a lot like the battle of Badr in Arabia
     
  13. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    Spoiler :
    Poland thread! Poland thread! Poland thread!


    sorry.
     
  14. HiroHito

    HiroHito Prince

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    thanks for the account Jas, it shows how hardy these people are, frankly I had no idea how brave they were before I looked it up, and I must admit I will see the sikh population with another perspective.

    They're people who live and die for their values principles, and that alone commands deep respect.
     
  15. Volstag

    Volstag Chairman of the Bored

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    There are numerous things missing from Civ. We can take comfort in the fact that it's a game and not a realistic simulation.
     
  16. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    Why is the fact that a religion has some very brave members mean that it is more important than any of the existing religions in game?
     
  17. Minoan

    Minoan Shah of Somewhere

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    Honestly, I think Sikhism should've been included over Judiasm, not because of how brave Sikhs are, but mostly because of the fact that it's a much larger religion than Judiasm.
     
  18. Airefuego

    Airefuego King

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    I found this graph really enlightening although being wikipedia i have no idea how reliable it is ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

    Anyway I was surprised that (according to the graph) only 4 game religions have over 1% of the world's population as followers... Taoists and Confucianists are a really tiny percentage, and yep Sikhism does beat Judaism although both are under 0.5% of world population.

    I'd like to see a Sikh civ - if indeed there was one, as opposed to simply a large number of people with the same religion but no political unity... anyone know? :)
     
  19. sanjay_111

    sanjay_111 Warlord

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    Jas,

    I am an Indian and looking at your desire to put a Sikh Civ in the game, I am tempted to make a lot of sardarji civ jokes but I suppose that would be inappropriate !

    On a serious note, having sikhism discovered and giving a martial sikh unit would have made playing as India (which I always do) more fun. The advantage could be balanced by making the Indian neighbor always aggressive.
     
  20. Nishdog

    Nishdog Isolationist Bastard

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    I like the current system where all religions are relatively the same...I say relatively, because different religions' buildings are built quicker with different resources...that's the only difference I've noticed. Changing that would open up debates Firaxis shouldn't have to deal with...that's for modders to work with...

    As for why one religion was included and why one was not? I just call them A,B,C,D,E,F,G anyways since they're all the same...and now with pick your religion feature, it doesn't even tie in to a specific tech, so that's even better...
     

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