Dao Elemental Schema Poll

[Viatos]

If the Dao were to be redesigned for inclusion and synergy with RiFE, what kind of elemental system would you like to see their society based around?

I am working on some stuff I'll either develop or toss as ideas to the RiFE team if they do it first, and one of the first problems with the Dao I ran into is how in ORBIS they're not really the Elemental civilization so much as the Air Elemental civilization. Air Elementals are way better then the others, and their Hero has Air Affinity to top it off.

So I figured I'd rebuild the actual elementals and allow all their units to pick up elemental "affinity" promotion lines with level prereqs, not unlike DnD heritage feats, to give people good reasons to vary their mana and go with different choices. And while I was doing that, I thought, well there are a bunch of ways you can go with this, aren't there? So I made a poll.

TERRESTIAL: Earth, Sky, and Sea are the key elements here, with Earth, Air, and Water as palace mana. Fire would be relegated to a "divine" element with the power of earth, the speed of air, and the flexibility of water, linked to UUs and the hero. This is my favorite. If you would like to see Fire replaced here with Dimensional, vote Terrestial and post "I voted Terrestial, but with Dimensional Mana."

GREEK CLASSICAL: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Dimensional as the "divine" element. Palace mana would be Dimensional and two random others.

EASTERN (CHINESE) CLASSICAL: Air, Metal (Earth), Fire, Water, Wood (Nature). Palace mana would be three random elements.

EREBUS CLASSICAL: Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Ice. Two schemas here: either Ice is special (and thus a guaranteed Palace mana) or it is not.

 

[dunedainjedi]

Given the options I think Terrestrial would be interesting. Greek Classical is mostly meh imho, and erebus classical makes more sense than Eastern given the tech tree. Terrestrial still looks to be the most fun and you could potentially work in some Priests of Bhall who only use divine fire magic, since pre Bhalls fall fire magic was mostly regulated to her priests and had a high likelyhood of killing someone who used it inappropriately.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Definitively not GREEK CLASSICAL, and nothing with fire. Fire is overused IMHO as fireball is already the most commonly used spell for mages.

If they are included, they should be made to focus on the more situational mana types like Nature but they should also have to compromise.

Hence I vote for Terrestial.


PS. I also vote against fire since my custom civ has Bhall as it's patron.

 

[Viatos]

Given the options I think Terrestrial would be interesting. Greek Classical is mostly meh imho, and erebus classical makes more sense than Eastern given the tech tree. Terrestrial still looks to be the most fun and you could potentially work in some Priests of Bhall who only use divine fire magic, since pre Bhalls fall fire magic was mostly regulated to her priests and had a high likelyhood of killing someone who used it inappropriately.

Yeah, given that the Dao do not appear to have any actual backstory and were built more or less straight from concept (if someone has information otherwise, let me know, it's not in the thread where they're hammered out on the ORBIS forum) I figure there's a lot of open terrain here. Bhall would be an interesting patron goddess. I was thinking Amathaon or generally godless, but a kind of shadow-faction for Bhall would be neat if that gets picked.

 

[Viatos]

Definitively not GREEK CLASSICAL, and nothing with fire. Fire is overused IMHO as fireball is already the most commonly used spell for mages.

If they are included, they should be made to focus on the more situational mana types like Nature but they should also have to compromise.

Hence I vote for Terrestial.

Terrestial is the schema that makes the biggest deal out of Fire (although, true, it is not a Palace Mana option) and does not include Nature. Might want to change your vote.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Dam... either way I don't think we need another reason to get fire.

 

[Opera]

If they're included and redesigned, I don't think we should call them "Dao", that would people to think that they're like in Orbis, which would be wrong. That's what Ahwaric did with the Lizards; at first he merged Cualli & Mazatl as "Mazatl" but then renamed them "Tlacatl" to show that they were different from the two others.

 

[Viatos]

If they're included and redesigned, I don't think we should call them "Dao", that would people to think that they're like in Orbis, which would be wrong. That's what Ahwaric did with the Lizards; at first he merged Cualli & Mazatl as "Mazatl" but then renamed them "Tlacatl" to show that they were different from the two others.

Mazatl and Cualli had distinct lore. Dao is "the Asian civ of Disciple-units and Elementals"; that'll still fit. If anybody has a better name, of course, go for it, but I don't think it's strictly necessary. Suggestions?

 

[hbar]

I like Eastern Classical. Rarely used, interesting synergies, and doesn't give a huge head start to the Tower of Elements.

Also, the current Dao are an Eastern mythology civ anyway. Seems like it fits.

 

[admtanaka]

Tough choice for me, and I haven't voted yet. I would say that I'm against any other civs having a special affinity for Ice. I also tend to agree that Fire is already the most used mana type and probably doesn't need much more attention.

 

[Mikka]

The Dao aren't the Eastern-based civilization, they're the Japanese-based civilization. The "eastern classical" is not 'Eastern', it's Chinese. While going with a strictly Erebus theme would work (thus Terrestrial would be my second choice), it seems weird to have a theme so tied to Japanese thematic with one single standout Chinese thing. It also leaves room for someone to create a Chinese themed civilization later. So I would suggest using the Japanese elements.

(I admit I complain about this partially because I am working on a Chinese themed civ, although it comes a bit slowly. Still, I think I would think going either Japanese or 'pure Erebus' is the best choice even without that. Hm, strange sentence.)

Chi, Ka, Fū, Sui, Kū. Earth, fire, wind, water, void. Void could be represented by either Mind or Spirit. The three higher elements could then be be the palace mana: Air, Water, and the Spirit/Mind. Considering the thematic of the civilization (which seems to be heavy on harmony with the elements), I think that 'Void' element is the most important part... and interestingly, it probably is better represented by Mind (emptiness, remember) then Spirit.

 

[Valkrionn]

If they're included and redesigned, I don't think we should call them "Dao", that would people to think that they're like in Orbis, which would be wrong. That's what Ahwaric did with the Lizards; at first he merged Cualli & Mazatl as "Mazatl" but then renamed them "Tlacatl" to show that they were different from the two others.

I am in complete agreement with Opera. That's a big part of why Ordo was removed; Revert the Mechanos to something closer to their original implementation in Orbis.

If any chances were made to the Elements used, I would be hard-pressed to choose anything other than the Eastern route (and if you read through the original Dao thread, you'll see I advocated it there, too); They are meant to be Asian, so utilizing the Asian elements is the way to go.

 

[KrugSmash]

I'm also a fan of the eastern elements, though I don't recall the orbis dao using nature mana.

As for the Dao being too focused on the air element, I think it would be better to just balance the units a little more, rather than completely altering the elements they use.

 

[Viatos]

Tough choice for me, and I haven't voted yet. I would say that I'm against any other civs having a special affinity for Ice. I also tend to agree that Fire is already the most used mana type and probably doesn't need much more attention.

I agree with feeling uneasy about Ice going to anyone who's not the Illians or the Frozens or a new Ice-centric civ to widen their niche a little. I dunno why you guys are all so into stacking Fire, though; I generally stack Death if I want combat-magic with a side-order of Shadow and Air. I thought it was a little under-used outside of the Amurites, personally.

The Dao aren't the Eastern-based civilization, they're the Japanese-based civilization. The "eastern classical" is not 'Eastern', it's Chinese. While going with a strictly Erebus theme would work (thus Terrestrial would be my second choice), it seems weird to have a theme so tied to Japanese thematic with one single standout Chinese thing. It also leaves room for someone to create a Chinese themed civilization later. So I would suggest using the Japanese elements.

...

Chi, Ka, Fū, Sui, Kū. Earth, fire, wind, water, void. Void could be represented by either Mind or Spirit. The three higher elements could then be be the palace mana: Air, Water, and the Spirit/Mind. Considering the thematic of the civilization (which seems to be heavy on harmony with the elements), I think that 'Void' element is the most important part... and interestingly, it probably is better represented by Mind (emptiness, remember) then Spirit.

Thin distinction; the art is inconclusive and the planning thread borrowed from multiple sources. The names DAO, YINXI, and their hero all draw from Chinese sources, as well. The Japanese element scheme is an interesting additional option. Let me check my editing powers.

EDIT: Can't change the poll. If you'd rather a four elements + Mind schema, vote Greek Classical and then make a post saying so, and I'll be sure to count it.

If any chances were made to the Elements used, I would be hard-pressed to choose anything other than the Eastern route (and if you read through the original Dao thread, you'll see I advocated it there, too); They are meant to be Asian, so utilizing the Asian elements is the way to go.

This actually wouldn't change their elements used, since the Eastern schema (Chinese if you like) is their default. That said, are you familiar with the Exalted RPG? They created what seems at first glance to be an incredibly well-detailed yet unique and original world until you realize the entire thing is just made up of culture-mashing, and I approve of this design philosophy. Thus I'd be happiest if they ended up breaking off the Asian path in at least one or two distinctive ways.

I'm also a fan of the eastern elements, though I don't recall the orbis dao using nature mana.

As for the Dao being too focused on the air element, I think it would be better to just balance the units a little more, rather than completely altering the elements they use.

They got Nature from their Palace. No reason to ever build a Nature node, but they could train one mage for Vitalize.

The units need a lot of balance rather then a little, and there's enough that needs doing in a conversion I thought I might as well put everything on the table and ask people what they want to see rather then port over a direct translation nobody even likes that much. Since work must be done, it makes sense to open up discussion of what is desired.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Personally I think that if you want to make them, you might as well keep the lore but make everything else up from scratch. New units, new mechanics, new name.

 

[Valkrionn]

Earth, fire, wind, water, void

Correct me if I'm wrong... But isn't that what they have, essentially? Or was there just talk of a Void element?

Really, that would be the best method, I just couldn't think of the Japanese elements off the top of my head.

 

[dunedainjedi]

More fun than shadow bhall priests would be a sect of priests that worship Bridget and await the day she over throws bhall. They could give a nice bonus from freeing her.

I think dimensional mana would be a more fun interpretation of void. And give them a UU that can get a few dimensional spells. Teleporting recon or mounted units would pretty much kick ass. That said I'm not very familiar with the Japanese system, but when I read void dimensional was the first thing to come to mind.

I feel like fire mana gets over used(along with air) because the current spells are BETTER than the other elemental spheres(ice maybe being the exception). Water is nice for spring, but I rarely grab Water II. Earth I never really grab, it's situationally useful ie stoneskin is nice if you're being attacked by assassins. All four give you elementals, but fireball and malestorm are just better tier two spells. In almost every tactical situation you can use a fireball, and in most you can use a malestorm(the exception being a poorly placed allied AI stack....). Stoneskin and waterwalking have their uses, but there aren't many. And archmages are best off with Metamagic III for D'jinn than any of the other tier 3 elemental summons.

 

[inuyashasama]

Japanese elements are air, water, earth, fire and metal IIRC

 

[Viatos]

Japanese elements are air, water, earth, fire and metal IIRC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element

Japanese elements are air, water, fire, earth, and void, as explained helpfully before.
Chinese elements are air, water, fire, metal, and wood.
Most ancient civilizations used a five-element system of air, water, fire, earth, and a fifth element to symbolize interconnection or emptiness.

 

[dunedainjedi]

I'd like to retract my early statement, having read up on it void is more Mind or Spirit or Metamagic than dimensional. Metamagic actually fits the beyond everyday experience, but I feel like that just turns the Dao into Amurites 2.0. Plus a D'Jinn would have affinity for all three palace mana. Which isn't good. Period.

I guess I'll actually have to learn to mod if I want teleporting horsemen.