Dealing with Venice, as Siam

[Robobob0]

Recently, i started a game as Siam. everything was going well, i had 2 city state allies, generating +60ish extra culture. However, there is one major problem: Venice. they are my direct neighbor, And, somehow, they have:
Largest GPT (somewhere around 130)
7 more techs than the next most literate
11 social policies.
at turn 93. Venice, on a quick match, got to the renaissance on turn 93. Obviously, playing as Siam, i am shooting for a diplomatic victory. However, Dealing with Venice is tricky. Venice is good friends with most civs i have met (7 civs out of 9), and declaring war would really cause some unrest towards me for, more or less, the entire game. So how do i approach the situation? Venice does have a nearby puppeted city state, so if i puppeted their capital, and liberated the city state, would i be able to keep fair relations with most civs, while eliminating the largest current threat in the game? I do not want to plunder all their trade routes, because that would destroy relations with other nearby civs, again destroying any diplomatic relations i had. i honestly see no other alternative, because i will lose any victory i attempt against Venice.

Also, I am playing on Continents, Prince, standard ( with 26 city states and 9 civs) on Quick. I am in the medieval era, and do not yet have the Wat or the Elephant UU. I understand its quick, but the renaissance at turn 93? really?!

 

[householder]

Venice does have a nearby puppeted city state, so if i puppeted their capital, and liberated the city state

You may not be able to liberate a city-state which Venice puppeted. When Venice or Austria acquire a city state via their unique ability, the city-state loses some of its special character. Essentially, it is as if Venice or Austria founded the city-state.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=507538

However, the situation seems to be different if Venice acquired the city-state via war.

 

[JeSuisNapoleon]

If you are playing as Siam, Venice is going to be your worst enemy. They can reduce your UA to nothing.

Destroy them.

Alternatively, build science and hope for a science vic that is faster than thier diplo vic. (good luck!). Since they are so far ahead, i think that's out of the question.

 

[Robobob0]

I guess I'll take them out... Also, how do I benefit from the UA? Is it similar to byzantium , where it is beneficial if I ally the city state, but I have no greater chance to ally with the city state?

 

[JeSuisNapoleon]

Thats right, so you might consider dropping points into the Patronage policy tack, at least a few to give yourself a slight edge. You will really want as many allies as possible.

The plain fact is that Venice has the cash to ally all CS near the end of the game, leaving you with nothing. They can also steal your allied CS and turn them into owned cities that you cant liberate. Their puppets will also generate more GMOV, allowing them to keep puppetting / or allying CS while your cities are more likely focused on science or production.

 

[JeSuisNapoleon]

also, I like Siam's UA much more than Byzantines. You can always ally a CS. You cant always found a religion.

 

[budweiser]

They are your neighbor? You expand into the land vacuum they leave and then stomp on them with your elephants. Simple.

 

[GoStu]

Yeah, when playing as Siam you should promote Venice to the top of your kill list. If you don't have a kill list, start one and put Venice on top of it.

 

[Halcyan2]

Have your elephants sit on top of their merchants!

Beeline Chivalry and try to take out Venice ASAP with your 25 strength elephants!

 

[Robobob0]

Thanks, And i completely destroyed them ( and a merchant they were sending to one of my allied city states). The issue now is, do i completely destroy them, or just leave them with a crippled inland, puppeted city?i dont want the memory of brutal slaughter to come up in the minds of the civs when there is a world leader election 1000 years from now, but i will not venice remain an active threat, if you can call them that anymore.

also, what is the normal maritime city state food output? i get 4.5 in capital and 1.5 everywhere else as an ally, on top of friendly +4 in cap and 1 everywhere else. is that normal?

 

[Halcyan2]

Thanks, And i completely destroyed them ( and a merchant they were sending to one of my allied city states). The issue now is, do i completely destroy them, or just leave them with a crippled inland, puppeted city?i dont want the memory of brutal slaughter to come up in the minds of the civs when there is a world leader election 1000 years from now, but i will not venice remain an active threat, if you can call them that anymore.

I would just stomp them now, to ensure they never have a chance to steal a city state with a Merchant of Venice.

Either that, or:

A. Stay permanently at war with them and always occupy their lands, killing any merchants that pop up.

B. Permanently commit 6 units to ring Venice and prevent any civilian units from leaving.


Eliminating Venice would result in a severe Warmonger Penalty, so I would also look for a convenient war where you can do some liberation. Ideally you can time things so that you take out Venice and liberate someone else on the same turn.

also, what is the normal maritime city state food output? i get 4.5 in capital and 1.5 everywhere else as an ally, on top of friendly +4 in cap and 1 everywhere else. is that normal?

Normally:

Friends: Capital gets +2 food
Allies: Capital gets +3 food, everyone else gets +1 food

 

[Robobob0]

I would just stomp them now, to ensure they never have a chance to steal a city state with a Merchant of Venice.

Either that, or:

A. Stay permanently at war with them and always occupy their lands, killing any merchants that pop up.

B. Permanently commit 6 units to ring Venice and prevent any civilian units from leaving.


Eliminating Venice would result in a severe Warmonger Penalty, so I would also look for a convenient war where you can do some liberation. Ideally you can time things so that you take out Venice and liberate someone else on the same turn.




Normally:

Friends: Capital gets +2 food
Allies: Capital gets +3 food, everyone else gets +1 food

I made peace before i saw this, however, i placed a spy in their puppet city to learn they were really nothing more than a city state... they have almost no science/culture generation, but gold remains relatively high due to trade routes. i will leave them there for now, because im 100% positive i will be in another war, seeing that my only ally is the US and most others are not pleased that i captured a capital city.

 

[Vohbo]

I've never played a game where Venice was at all relevant. I think the AI is completely unable to use this Civ properly and while they may be competitive early on, later in the game they quickly become completely useless in the hands of the computer.

 

[Halcyan2]

I've never played a game where Venice was at all relevant. I think the AI is completely unable to use this Civ properly and while they may be competitive early on, later in the game they quickly become completely useless in the hands of the computer.

Well, the AI doesn't really understand how to leverage a gold advantage. Perhaps that's a good thing though. Considering the artificial bonuses the AI gets at higher levels and the sheer amount of gold it gets at Deity, it all kind of makes sense.

AI Venice does have expansion issues (often wastes Merchants of Venice). Then again, a lot of AI's never expand past 3 or 4 cities.

So the AI just plays Venice as a tall civilization (which is does decently but not spectacularly).

 

[ravenmagus]

Then again, a lot of AI's never expand past 3 or 4 cities.

This is not often a problem I've seen with the AI - especially on higher difficulties, where they get tons of free happiness and like to splurge cities all over the map.

 

[JeSuisNapoleon]

While I have never seen Venice get more than 4 cites under AI control, they often have a large number of allied CS. That's bad for Siam who will be competing for the same CS.

best to minimize them or eliminate.

I have seen other AI on immortal run away and go ultra wide with 12 founded cities and some puppets before the end of the game, while others just stay at 3 or 4 cities. It seems to depend on what their goals are, and which wonders they have.

 

[ObadiahtheSlim]

I have found containment to be a good policy on Venice. Declare war and never accept peace. Destroy any unit leaving Venice. Those cargo ships and caravans become a free +100. MoVs are just another unit to be destroyed. If you get on it early enough, he'll never gain a 2nd city.

 

[Antarion]

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[GoStu]

Thanks, And i completely destroyed them ( and a merchant they were sending to one of my allied city states). The issue now is, do i completely destroy them, or just leave them with a crippled inland, puppeted city?i dont want the memory of brutal slaughter to come up in the minds of the civs when there is a world leader election 1000 years from now, but i will not venice remain an active threat, if you can call them that anymore.

also, what is the normal maritime city state food output? i get 4.5 in capital and 1.5 everywhere else as an ally, on top of friendly +4 in cap and 1 everywhere else. is that normal?

I take some of my strategic cues from Mortal Kombat. Now that you have them beaten and reeling... FATALITY.

Leaving them alive in a state of permanent war is for wimps.