Deity+3 classic succession game 1: "We who survived"

[Kev]

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
Ok, let's have some fun!
Why do I have a feeling this is not as bad as it sounds. I'm guessing it was either a city on one of our remote colonies, or we've already got it back. (or both)
Hmmm... I'm guessing the Americans have turned on us. (Unless you spoke to the already uncooperative Greeks, but that seems too obvious)
[/b]Industrialization was not far away. Do we have engineers working on railroads?
[/b]Why do I have this feeling they don't have any cities either

[/B]

1. Got the barbs right!

2. Yeah, dumb enought to speak to the Greeks to try to get some map info. Duh.

3. We have some engineers now starting on rails.

4. The French would not be goaded.



BTW - the save game below.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by Kev
City of Wang built

Oops! Wang Labs was founded by a Chinese immigrant

 

[Kev]

Dang! I knew I'd screw something like that up. My bad.

 

[Old n Slow]

D/L'd the save & will look at it tonight.

Looks like great activity, Kev -- maybe it was just as well that the French weren't goaded...(I like to visit the neighbors AFTER Tactics, so the timing might just work out (?) -- we'll see...

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by Old n Slow
D/L'd the save & will look at it tonight.

Looks like great activity, Kev -- maybe it was just as well that the French weren't goaded...(I like to visit the neighbors AFTER Tactics, so the timing might just work out (?) -- we'll see...

The key is the gunpowder. I assume at this level most AI units are Vets and behind walls. In that case Dragoons have a better chance against pre-gunpowder defenders than Cavalry have against muskets.

But if you can manage to get Cavalry against Pre-gunpowder units...

 

[TheViking]

Veteran cannons together with an army of engineers are fairly effective against musketeers behind walls. However, IMO we should immediately get an army of 3-6 engineers to France (we can rush build a few in Rouen maybe), revolt, demand tribute which should result in war, capture as many French cities as possible (probably only Avignon and Rheims) and return to democracy a turn later. This takes advantage of the fact that the French do not have gunpowder yet. I think they will very soon get gunpowder from the Americans so this 'window' will soon close.

To accomplish this we can simply build SOL (we have lots of caravans and cash) and then we do not have to worry about oedo years.

 

[Kev]

I rushed a cannon in Rouen, and an engineer is due there the next turn. A barracks there might not be a bad idea... and possibly walls just in case. There is a ship chain in place from Kyoto to Rouen in case the next few players wish to send stuff there.

With a French knight in our land, we may have the opportunity to goad them. If we put a caravan or engineer nearby, they may be dumb enough to "sneak" attack.

To be honest, these AI's are pretty much toast in any case. We're going to whomp them up something big once we get really rolling. I would love to get some additional French cities right now, but it'd be just as fun to boost our tech lead by getting Darwin's after industrialization and then getting Suffrage, the UN, and Hoover in quick succession. Get corp for some even better trade, perhaps machine tools for artillery, maybe even a battleship or three and viola! Not even Loki could sway the spiral of death we've created for the rest of the world.

 

[Andu Indorin]

Originally posted by Kev
Andu:

Saw "Return of the King" the night it came out.

I was much more disappointed with the Two Towers for several reasons. The silly added warg-rider attack leading to Aragorn's "fall", the elves coming to help at Helm's Deep, the Ents declining to help take down Isengard at first, the battle of Helm's Deep in general, and MOST of all the way they portrayed Faramir. One of his most famous quotes in the book was that if he found the ring laying by the roadside he would still not pick it up. A throwback to the race of Numenor. They made him to be much too much like Boromir and it was unecessary.

ROTK was a let down, but the cinematics was so good I could forgive a bit of it. I share your opinion about Aragorn's development - where WERE the other rangers and the sons of Elrond anyway?

Yes, there were many unnecessary additions to the Two Towers.

What bothers me most about the Return -- apart from Frodo's "betrayel" of Sam -- is that an army of ghosts turns the tide at the Battle of the Pelannor Fields. It is as leader of men that Aragorn lands at the Harlond, not the leader of ghosts. And it is there that the banner of the King is first viewed. And it is in the midst of battle that Aragorn is reunited with Eomer -- a friendship that is not even touched upon in the movie. A lot of the drama is lost, replaced by a special effects deus ex machina that ignores Tolkien's theme of men uniting against evil. Can't say I cared much for the characterization of Denethor either, whom Gandalf likened to as one in whom the blood Numenor ran almost true (if I'm recalling that correctly), and whom Faramir was more like than Boromir.

 

[Andu Indorin]

Yes, things are looking quite good in this game. Almost too good?

 

[Old n Slow]

Well, I'm about half done with my turns; so far, so-so. Lost one alliance (decided not to give away a military tech), and when begging for gifts, gave away RR for nothing and the final beg was rewarded with nothing as well. Maybe it is because we're supreme?

No barbs yet, so I must still have a few turns left...

 

[TheViking]

Originally posted by Old n Slow
gave away RR for nothing

Actually this can be a good thing because it makes it much easier for us to invade.

 

[Kev]

Originally posted by Andu Indorin


Yes, there were many unnecessary additions to the Two Towers.

What bothers me most about the Return -- apart from Frodo's "betrayel" of Sam -- is that an army of ghosts turns the tide at the Battle of the Pelannor Fields. It is as leader of men that Aragorn lands at the Harlond, not the leader of ghosts. And it is there that the banner of the King is first viewed. And it is in the midst of battle that Aragorn is reunited with Eomer -- a friendship that is not even touched upon in the movie. A lot of the drama is lost, replaced by a special effects deus ex machina that ignores Tolkien's theme of men uniting against evil. Can't say I cared much for the characterization of Denethor either, whom Gandalf likened to as one in whom the blood Numenor ran almost true (if I'm recalling that correctly), and whom Faramir was more like than Boromir.

The Eomer character in general was almost ignored. I recall that in the battle of the Pelannor that Aragorn, Eomer and Imrahil of Dol Amroth were three heroes who were basically untouched and untouchable through the battle and rallied all men to them. If those dead guys were so great, why not send them into Mordor to kick EVERYONE's asses there?

And too bad we did not get a chance to see Sauruman's affect on the Shire at the end.

Still, I have yet to find a book that I thought was captured well enough on screen - and poor Tom Clancy must feel the same about his. It's just that I am very passionate about Tolkien that I cannot abide by other 'interpretations' being foised upon us when the original seemed pretty damn great to me.

Just so we're not TOTALLY off topic: Yay team!

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by Old n Slow
Well, I'm about half done with my turns; so far, so-so. Lost one alliance (decided not to give away a military tech), and when begging for gifts, gave away RR for nothing and the final beg was rewarded with nothing as well. Maybe it is because we're supreme?

No barbs yet, so I must still have a few turns left...

War?:shotgun: :rocket:

 

[Jayne]

By Kev: And too bad we did not get a chance to see Sauruman's affect on the Shire at the end

Apparently it was cut from the film, but will be on the 4-disc edition of the DVD.

Also, Ian McKellan was on TV yesterday saying New Line are after the rights for The Hobbit, and Peter Jackson has said he can play Gandalf again.

By Old n Slow: No barbs yet, so I must still have a few turns left...

And I was hoping my barb-slaying days were over!!

 

[Zheng He]

You ladies and gentlemen, great fans of the literature, may want to reconsider the films as cinema--highly effective. I am sure it is hard to objectively consider the films if the books are heartened. Faramir's charge was portrayed, as was Arwin's choice. Selling books to film is the sale of a concept--do not except that the book will live on film. Rather, a new vision will appear. The third film was the weakest as far as plot, but highly effective as far as effect. Very visual. A hobbit fan would only notice Pippin's great expanded role. Of all, he most deserves award as greatest growth. And Frodo?--a weak vessel. Without Sam, the quest is failure. My favorite of all? Haldir--the great arrival in the midst of despair.
Oh, and great goodness ocurring in the present game. I do not yeat dare to attempt a plus 3, but much enjoy observing yours.

 

[Old n Slow]

Not much of a Teaser --

War was declared against us three times -- we are still in one.

Growth, Science, & Wonders…Yes to all, but there could have been more.

Old n Slow at the Helm…and the Barbs?

Save now & log soon.

 

[Old n Slow]

Status in 1440

We’re doing well by all measures except:

1) We have RR technology, but no rails --> need engineers at this task.
2) We have a lot of open space begging for new cities --> need engineers to plant cities.
3) We need $$ for the above --> camels
4) We need infrastructure to maintain Growth
5) We need some military, dips and $$ for defense against barbarian incursions
6) More boats would be nice (see #3 above)
7) We also need camels for Wonders both available now and expected soon.
8) And of course, we need to maintain a strong push for science to keep the edge that we have.

As of 1440, we have 42 cities, 51 techs, Pop = 14M and a nice target of the nearby French; many good choices of things to do -- need more resources, and yet at the same time we’ll want some security. RB some a couple of engineers & finish a few things in process. during the course of the next ten turns, a few would enter the We Love process, a few stopped (half of the time due to inferior placement of citizens, so it became worthwhile to double check each stop notice & move folks), and often a city or few would blow up (of course after a new city was founded -- can we have “triple unhappy citizens?”). Some greater detailed notes (but not fully complete) are available on request.

1400 (0) (Indians complete Eiffel -- as my notes are incomplete about later ai tech discoveries, I’ll skip posting those as well.)

1420 (1) -- Toshiba builds a harbor, Echizen builds a temple, Nara makes a sewer; Naples, Yokohama, & Rouen create engineers. We also get a couple of camels.

1440 (2) -- (Rhiems complete the Statue of Liberty; we withdraw trrops from French areas (again.)) We Love + in five cities, ends in three others. Seville creates engineers. Stock exchange in Kyoto, Aqueduct in Nagoya (and toggle to 5.4.1) spend down to a little under 1K. Talk to Americans (4 Arrows, and no gift.), Indians -- 5 Arrows, grant RR, but no gift) and Celts (3 Spears, no gift -- they want gunpowder (no, let’s keep you guys a little slow for the time being, no reason to let the French gain something too soon.) -- we say no & they dissolve the alliance. since they have a city on our rock (albeit in the far north) we may want slightly cooler relations (said in a rationalizing manner.)

1460 (3) (French revolt, & move stuff; Indians start Darwin’s.) Pop = 15M. Discover Industrialization & opt for Tactics (only other choice was Commy). We Love + in three places, WL - in two. Found Atago near the landed French units & Nagasaki. Insist that they leave (they do, but two camels remain.) Hut near Prague is an advanced tribe = Milan + temple (What no Barbs?? We continue to wait for the curse to arrive…) Also found Honshu near Wang and Hoki near Sapporo. Kozuke wine (d) to Boston = 110; Nagasaki gold (d) to Herakleia = 924 (THAT’s more like it! we need to develop these Greek markets some more.)

1480 (4) (French discover Steam, & switch to Fundy. Americans steal Conscription from Fukushima and land a Crusader nearby, but we choose not to end the alliance.) We Love +1, -2. Pop = 16M. Discover Tactics & opt for Corp over Steel & four other techs. (yes we blew it -- should have cashed in a few camels for Darwin’s…oh well. -- One of them was done in error Kyoto to Osaka for a few nickels.)

We demand that the French withdraw their troops, but their fundy Government says WAR! (We say ha, ha, ha.) Smack the two camels outside of Nagasaki, empty out & take Avignon (+172) but error in not smacking a nearby settler before entering the city. Our Senate moves us directly to peace. Buy a French Frigate (supported by Atago) for -297.

Sado silver (d) to Wash for 257; Osaka wine (d) to Balt = 267; Issus gems (d) to Kyoto = 68. On the domestic front, a few teams of engineers are laying track.

1500 (5) (Americans discover Leadership) Kawasaki blows up, WL+3, -4. Found Hizen & Tosa. Cash in a camel, a rifle & 1304 for a Wonder.

1510 (6) WL +5, -2 Prague blows up. discover Corporation, opt for Steel; Complete Darwin’s Voyage in Nagoya -- discover Steel & then Electronics & opt for Refining. Honda hides (d) to Wash for 430, Edo dye (d) to Sparta for 168, Atlanta gives 180 for demanded cloth.

1520 (7) Toshiba blows up (some WL changes go unrecorded. Pop = 18M). Insist that the ever almost present French remove their troops (now that some of our guys are healed & can fight again.) and they respond with WAR. We destroy a camel & a couple of units & take Rhiems (and its Statue of Liberty) -- try the UN gambit before coming in contact with troops…to no avail; Senate awards a peace treaty. (The French do stay fundy, however, so it should be easier to provoke them as well as watching them never reach gunpowder.)

Nagasaki gems (d) to Chicago for 302, Wash pays 132 for some non demanded salt.

1530 (8) (Indians discover Industrialization & start Women’s Suffrage.) Discover Refining, & opt for Machine Tools over AW, Comb, Fund, & Refr. Pop = 19M Ki-Rin blows up.

Nagasaki copper (d) to St. Louis = 504, Toyota Silk to St. Louis = 276, Yokohama wine (d) to St. Louis = 515. Found Owari & Noto

1540 (9) (Americans discover Tactics) Prague creates and engineer & blows up (yes there have been other new engineers, but cities going into disorder get special notice.) discover Machine Tools, & opt for Combustion over AW, Comm, G.E.

Insist that the French remove their troops (haven’t done that lately) -- they respond with WAR for a third time -- smack a couple of cats & press forward.

Izumo silver (d) to Washington = 515, Toyota wool (d) to St. Louis = 102, Toyota dye (d) to Prague = 148, Satsuma dye (d) to Athens = 240.

Found Iga, Kamachi & Mino

1550 (10) (Indians nearly complete Women’s Suffrage) Two French knights wound our pride, but nothing much more than that. We discover Combustion, & opt for Mini vs a half dozen techs.

Deliver a half dozen trucks, best was Kyoto hides (d) to Athens for 636 coins & beakers. Since we’re rich, we cash in a truck or two & buy the rest of the shields for Women’s Suffrage.

Notes --

We have a loose boat chain for Greece with a stopover for America if desired -- we should be able to continue the tech per turn for a while I think. we’re still at war with the French -- maybe we should pay serious attention, empty out the cities (but don’t take them) and then ‘take them’ all at once. I was in a hurry for Rhiems, mainly for the wonder & goofed up with Avignon; but since the French are such easy targets, we might as well get the whole set.

We have a large set of engineers forging the path to the future in our north -- I RR’d the route with the thought of having them road & found until we either run out of them or hit the sea.

There are about a dozen new cities building rifles -- feel free to switch them to trucks (I was too lazy to pay attention & RB these. -- Maybe when there are a few more shields it will make sense to do so. I was also negligent about infrastructure -- there are a few cities pushing out engineers that might just as well do so with an aqueduct or sewer as well.

We can switch the Wonder to Hoover’s, but since the Indians have “nearly completed” Woman’s Suffrage, I thought that maybe we should take that one first.

The Indians are researching Communism, so Marco’s may expire at any time. Below is the world status as of 1550

Nat #C #T $ Gov Pol (Res)
Jap 56 59 2K Dem -- (Mini)
Cel 18 33 Rep 2K N/P (Inv)
Fre 8 38 Fun 2K U/W (Gun)
Ame 15 48 Dem 1K E/A (Met)
Gre 16 35 Rep 2K R/P (Met)
Ind 19 43 Dem 2K E/A (Com)

Each turn took between a half and a full hour for me with the half hour turns suffering due to lack of complete attention & missed RB opportunities. It may be time soon to think about downshifting to five turns each.

 

[Jayne]

I will play over the next couple of days. I'll probably only play 5 turns - I'll see how it goes.

And no barb horde to deal with - a lovely Birthday present for me!

 

[Kev]

Excellent work, O&S!

Since we're there, I would stay with Suffrage. Then, I would get Communism at the first opportunity. Having the UN is going to help us immensely. I would hate to have the Indians get it and be mired in the UN peace treaties as we try to destroy them. Perhaps get Hoover while waiting for Communism, but either way with some good cash we should be able to rush enough freight to get us all three.

I'm wondering where we stand on the factories as well. We should get some of those up and running pronto to keep us at least somewhat competitive in the production area.

On the French mainland, even though they are studying gunpowder, they are in Fundy which will hopefully slow them down a little. Better to take the cities now that we have the unit advantage. Once they have gunpowder we're likely to stall until we can get some artillery together and a rail system in place.

I'm glad you decided to keep up the engineer building and city making. We can build those suckers 'till the cows come home.

Jayne: When is your birthday? Mine was the 11th.

Zheng He: Glad that you are keeping tabs and enjoying the game. Feel free to comment or ask questions at any time.

I think that most understand that any book - especially one that one feels quite strongly about - is bound to disappoint when it appears on the screen. Still, though armed with this knowledge it does not prevent the disappointment from happening. I had a chance to watch all of the movies with my 13-year-old stepson, and he has not read the books (yet). He did enjoy the movies - boys of his age surely enjoyed the spectacle. Yet, when we discussed them, I had to admit that I did not really understand some of the reasoning behind the characters. When I explained what ACTUALLY happened in the book, the story became clearer to him.

My particular issue was WHY the changes. In many cases, I don't feel it added to the story while in most I thought it detracted. With some, I could see it adding to the cinematic experience, but overall I think they netted lower. I understand the contraints of time (though this last installment was about 3-1/2 hours by my watch), but I cannot help but feel that they could have kept the wondrous "feel" of the movie while still remaining truer to the original.

 

[Old n Slow]

Kev,

Thanks for the thoughts. As far as Communism goes, if we can maintain the trucks to net a tech per turn & $2K cash as well, we can get commy in any of the next few turns, with spying soon after. Best would be having a bunch of food trucks to trade in for the UN as soon as commy was discovered. Might as well get Hoover's soon too.

My preference is to ride the commodity train as long as we can. Now that the boats are in place, we can set aside a few cities for infrastructure growth, a few for engineer production (take an engineer, have that one make a new city/expand an existing small one and the city that made him can rush a replacement) a bunch for trucks and a few for defense. I was somewhat sloppy on the infrastructure side, so we have some size 8 & 12 cities that can now grow with Jayne's expert attention.

-------Off topic-----------

As far as movies, books, & the relations thereof, some authors have kept ties too close & others have walked away (& said thank you for the large check, of course.) I think that many books lend themselves to the screen well, and others less well -- thus creating the potential for distinctly different packages of entertainment. In general, I've enjoyed the books in question over teh movies that someone else has made -- often because the movie had to cut out soooo much.

I read the trilogy back in my college days (long before Civ II), so with the fog of memory I was able to "fully" enjoy the movie without being so close to the literature to miss out. So I walked in with most of the stuff in the deep backround of my mind, but didn't have complete recall of all the details.

No complaints from me on the movie -- it could have been so much worse -- and if a few of the subtle changes (greater female involvement) add to the audience, then it has improved the genre.

I hope that it wins all sorts of awards.