Dirk1302
Deity
^ I think we agree about why we lost, this particular map might be too difficult anyway.
Spoiler :
deity aw
- Thread starter Snaaty
- Start date
ABigCivFan
Emperor
Deity_AW is extreme, why not get a couple of Immortal_AW wins before trying this again? Maybe even high sea to limit the amount of land the AIs can settle. Also would be fun to use a Philo leader and try out an EP game.
@ kaizilla:
knowing the map and some key dates of the ai developement, most maps are winnable.
try this if you do another replay (thats what i would do replaying this map with what i know now):
1. try to get the gw in capital. when you have to build it you can see in the other games to make sure.
2. get the oracle in a helper city with lots of wood (chop it). therefore settle your second city not near the front but somewhere with wood to chop the oracle. this should be possible even with going archery before with the gold near the capital
3a. if you fail with the gw because its simply impossible (doesnt happen too often, but sometimes it does), use the oracle to grab col and get a gs via hiring a spy asap (see the deity aw 2 game, what i did there).
3b. if you get the gw, feel free to pick whatever you want from the oracle. even feuda is possible on this map
4. get a spy economy running while settling all your land quick (dont forget the islands). prio stealing currency for the traderoutes with the islands
5. use the settling pattern of the best tries here (using only 1 blocking city)
6. selfresearch math-col-cs, steal the rest
7. hit the ai with maces+cats+lbs around 100-200 AD. you should be able to take out at least babylon like that
...
techsteeling + a shrine and full reli spread combined with an early bureau capital might speed up things enough to reach a critical size not to fall behind too much in tech (rifles dont kill super lbs, but infs surely do), and with highly promoted rifles, cavs + trebs (canons would be even better) you are pretty save even against infs + can go on the offence bit by bit (that still feels like pulling teeth to tell you the truth, but it works
).
knowing the map and some key dates of the ai developement, most maps are winnable.
try this if you do another replay (thats what i would do replaying this map with what i know now):
1. try to get the gw in capital. when you have to build it you can see in the other games to make sure.
2. get the oracle in a helper city with lots of wood (chop it). therefore settle your second city not near the front but somewhere with wood to chop the oracle. this should be possible even with going archery before with the gold near the capital
3a. if you fail with the gw because its simply impossible (doesnt happen too often, but sometimes it does), use the oracle to grab col and get a gs via hiring a spy asap (see the deity aw 2 game, what i did there).
3b. if you get the gw, feel free to pick whatever you want from the oracle. even feuda is possible on this map
4. get a spy economy running while settling all your land quick (dont forget the islands). prio stealing currency for the traderoutes with the islands
5. use the settling pattern of the best tries here (using only 1 blocking city)
6. selfresearch math-col-cs, steal the rest
7. hit the ai with maces+cats+lbs around 100-200 AD. you should be able to take out at least babylon like that
...
techsteeling + a shrine and full reli spread combined with an early bureau capital might speed up things enough to reach a critical size not to fall behind too much in tech (rifles dont kill super lbs, but infs surely do), and with highly promoted rifles, cavs + trebs (canons would be even better) you are pretty save even against infs + can go on the offence bit by bit (that still feels like pulling teeth to tell you the truth, but it works
).Dirk1302
Deity
I'm not sure you can win this map this way, maybe if you'll get lucky. I actually retried it 2 times going for GW also to practise a few things. Well that is not so easy as this wonder goes really early (in my second try before 2500BC) but after some modifications i got it around 2300 BC in my third try. In the meantime i settled as gkey did.
I noticed:
- it may be wise not to scout too much early game. You declare on them once they see you. I know where Babylon is of course so in my second try i scouted him out earlier so i could set spy points. This resulted in a very early 5 unit stack from him going for me, didn't happen in my first and third try. Could be coincidence but maybe not. One thing is sure, he won't have a 5 unit stack as long as he doesn't know you exist. So scout only your direct surroundings and try to avoid them early game. Problem can be chosing your block cities but that can be often be done from the shape of the land.
- Those stacks almost never pillage, apparently the ai assigns pillage units which often are alone
or in pairs. It's wise to have some offensive units (often spears) to deal with these. Apart from
skirms spears are your friend more than axes in these sort of games.
What happened:
So i got GW, didn't go oracle but settled according to gkey pattern. Went well to ~900 BC, building GW costs you on expansion the GG's are nice and spy economy is way better than self researching. Then Han followed by almost all the others bypassed block city and went directly for capital/iron city. I had an alternative route to retreat troops from blockcity to capital so i survived. Again nothing was pillaged and wounded ai troops retreated. Unfortunately i didn't get my troops back fast enough to block city so i lost that city and the game.
It seems to me that the ai is programmed to have a little variation in the attacking pattern. Block city will be targeted most of the time but sometimes another city will be chosen. So it may be useful to have 2 blockcities as in Snaaty/Dirk pattern. In that game ai always went for one of the blockers. Speculation i know but maybe relevant.
@gkey, didn't ais go for your capital/iron city sometimes in the game?
@snaaty, that's a nice idea to get gspy this way. Imo GW is too much of a gamble it really goes early very often, almost always before 2000 BC. You can research masonry early and give it a try but if you start putting hammers in it and fail it'll have cost you as the gold doesn't compensate at all. To minimize the cost of failure you should prechop as much as possible only releasing the chops once you can get the wonder the turn after.
Mylene pointed this out in another thread and i thought that was really a good idea (more or less new for someone who builds few wonders and almost never the early ones like me).It may take some roads between chop tiles and 2 workers to release all the chops in time. If GW fails you'll keep the prechopped tiles for Oracle.
Even then you have to make an all out effort for GW which delays your first settler. Thsi can be costly if ai settles one of your block points.
Oracle is a much saver bet it doesn't go pre 1800 BC that often and you have chances until ~1400 BC i think. It needs myst/med/priesthood/writing (to get Col) however.So some early commerce is needed i think. But at least you can get these first settler(s) out before chopping the wonder. If both fail you're in for a hard time as i've seen here.
Have to see if i can find time to play your second map.
I noticed:
- it may be wise not to scout too much early game. You declare on them once they see you. I know where Babylon is of course so in my second try i scouted him out earlier so i could set spy points. This resulted in a very early 5 unit stack from him going for me, didn't happen in my first and third try. Could be coincidence but maybe not. One thing is sure, he won't have a 5 unit stack as long as he doesn't know you exist. So scout only your direct surroundings and try to avoid them early game. Problem can be chosing your block cities but that can be often be done from the shape of the land.
- Those stacks almost never pillage, apparently the ai assigns pillage units which often are alone
or in pairs. It's wise to have some offensive units (often spears) to deal with these. Apart from
skirms spears are your friend more than axes in these sort of games.
What happened:
So i got GW, didn't go oracle but settled according to gkey pattern. Went well to ~900 BC, building GW costs you on expansion the GG's are nice and spy economy is way better than self researching. Then Han followed by almost all the others bypassed block city and went directly for capital/iron city. I had an alternative route to retreat troops from blockcity to capital so i survived. Again nothing was pillaged and wounded ai troops retreated. Unfortunately i didn't get my troops back fast enough to block city so i lost that city and the game.
It seems to me that the ai is programmed to have a little variation in the attacking pattern. Block city will be targeted most of the time but sometimes another city will be chosen. So it may be useful to have 2 blockcities as in Snaaty/Dirk pattern. In that game ai always went for one of the blockers. Speculation i know but maybe relevant.
@gkey, didn't ais go for your capital/iron city sometimes in the game?
@snaaty, that's a nice idea to get gspy this way. Imo GW is too much of a gamble it really goes early very often, almost always before 2000 BC. You can research masonry early and give it a try but if you start putting hammers in it and fail it'll have cost you as the gold doesn't compensate at all. To minimize the cost of failure you should prechop as much as possible only releasing the chops once you can get the wonder the turn after.
Mylene pointed this out in another thread and i thought that was really a good idea (more or less new for someone who builds few wonders and almost never the early ones like me).It may take some roads between chop tiles and 2 workers to release all the chops in time. If GW fails you'll keep the prechopped tiles for Oracle.
Even then you have to make an all out effort for GW which delays your first settler. Thsi can be costly if ai settles one of your block points.
Oracle is a much saver bet it doesn't go pre 1800 BC that often and you have chances until ~1400 BC i think. It needs myst/med/priesthood/writing (to get Col) however.So some early commerce is needed i think. But at least you can get these first settler(s) out before chopping the wonder. If both fail you're in for a hard time as i've seen here.
Have to see if i can find time to play your second map.
I'm quite sure it's impossible, not because of the maps, but because of the settings.
Tech trading just helps the AI too much.
That makes sense.
Especially since some players reported some very helpful AI-AI-wars in the early game - those will never occur if all AI's are already busy fighting you.
- - -
One small thing I learned:
Walls in most cases do you more harm than good.
If your enemies don't bring catapults, you don't need them.
But if they do, you don't want them to linger in front of your city with reinforcements (maybe even another AI's SoD) streaming towards them every turn - you want them to attack soon.
Dirk1302
Deity
^Tech trading is off in this game iirc?
Walls cost almost nothing (protective). It boosts defence to 50% but does it only once. Once it's catapulted away it's useless afaik. Pre pults it's not that bad as you can do with less defenders, then again some more defenders gaining experience is a more constructive approach. Actually i build walls once the cats arrive, you need more units then and i build those units while the cats are pulting defences down.
I actually don't know how walls work precisely. Usually you have 20% defense in those block cities, if you build walls it's 50%, not 70% if i'm correct. So better to let the ai pult down those 20% first, then finish your pre build/whipped walls i'd think. But i have never seen a tactic like this mentioned so maybe i'm missing some subtle point about walls.
You do need cats or trebs later to conquer one ai not that i reached that stage in this game
.Top defenders can hold out long against siege, siege can help a bit in weakening big stack's, another longbow helps as well, don't know which is better.
I actually held on for a long time in my first game, i wasn't conquered just surrendered myself winning chances were zero 1120 AD. I think i could have hold out until 1500 AD at least by just shipping in more units but i didn't see the point as winning it is the challenge.
Walls cost almost nothing (protective). It boosts defence to 50% but does it only once. Once it's catapulted away it's useless afaik. Pre pults it's not that bad as you can do with less defenders, then again some more defenders gaining experience is a more constructive approach. Actually i build walls once the cats arrive, you need more units then and i build those units while the cats are pulting defences down.
I actually don't know how walls work precisely. Usually you have 20% defense in those block cities, if you build walls it's 50%, not 70% if i'm correct. So better to let the ai pult down those 20% first, then finish your pre build/whipped walls i'd think. But i have never seen a tactic like this mentioned so maybe i'm missing some subtle point about walls.
You do need cats or trebs later to conquer one ai not that i reached that stage in this game
.Top defenders can hold out long against siege, siege can help a bit in weakening big stack's, another longbow helps as well, don't know which is better.I actually held on for a long time in my first game, i wasn't conquered just surrendered myself winning chances were zero 1120 AD. I think i could have hold out until 1500 AD at least by just shipping in more units but i didn't see the point as winning it is the challenge.
@ dirk:
great summary.
the thing about not scouting seems a valid point, but it makes it even harder to get some decent blocking spots settled in time. thats why i usually like to play aw games with xy of mali... ...the skirms keep you pretty save earlygame and 2 in a hillcity will kill any initial stacks (usually 2-4 archers + 1-3 axes or chars).
concerning the blocking cities:
it is very unusual to have only 1 blocking city. the maplayout must be close to ideal for such a setting. so having 2 (or even 3) blocking cities is more likely. but i also noticed some stacks passing by blocking cities. i things this happens when your top defender gets too strong for them and they pick another target. sometimes its even possible to have stacks wander between 2 cities for quite some time running with your top defender from city to city (he needs mobility of course
). and sometimes they will attack immediately after the 25% fortification bonus is gone...
walls:
the wall defence (if i remember right) doenst come immediately when building the wall, but increases each turn by some %. so if you build them when the ais are outside your city already with cats, you can beef the defences only a bit, cause the increasing stops the turn you get bombarded (so you gain only a part of the 50% defende boni).
...
-> try the new map. you will like it. it turns out to be a bit different from this one. that i guess i can say without spoilering too much
great summary.
the thing about not scouting seems a valid point, but it makes it even harder to get some decent blocking spots settled in time. thats why i usually like to play aw games with xy of mali... ...the skirms keep you pretty save earlygame and 2 in a hillcity will kill any initial stacks (usually 2-4 archers + 1-3 axes or chars).concerning the blocking cities:
it is very unusual to have only 1 blocking city. the maplayout must be close to ideal for such a setting. so having 2 (or even 3) blocking cities is more likely. but i also noticed some stacks passing by blocking cities. i things this happens when your top defender gets too strong for them and they pick another target. sometimes its even possible to have stacks wander between 2 cities for quite some time running with your top defender from city to city (he needs mobility of course
). and sometimes they will attack immediately after the 25% fortification bonus is gone...walls:
the wall defence (if i remember right) doenst come immediately when building the wall, but increases each turn by some %. so if you build them when the ais are outside your city already with cats, you can beef the defences only a bit, cause the increasing stops the turn you get bombarded (so you gain only a part of the 50% defende boni).
...
-> try the new map. you will like it. it turns out to be a bit different from this one. that i guess i can say without spoilering too much
Nope, it's 50% defense immediately.
(The AI probably bombarded your city right after you finished the wall, so you never got to see the 50, but it was there.)
And what dirk described does work - it you have say 40% culture defense, let the AI bombard that down to 0, then finish wall - and your back to 50%.
Also, with walls, every single catapult will only reduce your defense by a smaller amount every turn.
(A city with 60% culture defense doesn't get any bonus % from building a wall, but it will take twice as long (or twice as many catapults) to bring down the defenses completely.)
Still, I don't think they usually help in this scenario.
- - -
It's so funny how some of the best players on this board don't know how walls work.
Tells a lot about how useful they are in standard games.Just a second opinion on the scouting FWIW. I had a crack last week and made some notes - did not meet Stalin till Turn 46 (edit: then Hannibal, Peter T60). Even then he did not send units, maybe I had too many skirmishers running around (rather overbuilt), maybe it's cos he was building wonders.
Anyway I tried to skirm rush
He was taunting me with dam underdefended city, then filled it with swords from somewhere as I attacked.
Anyway I tried to skirm rush
He was taunting me with dam underdefended city, then filled it with swords from somewhere as I attacked.Dirk1302
Deity
@Cusanus, I knew it was 50% immed. And i had known in the distant past that the catapulting is slow as with castles but i had forgotten. But then they're not completely useless once there 50% is gone. Culture regrows (slowly but still...) and next time it will take twice as long again to take down what remains of your culture, one cat more bombarding is one cat less causing collateral. So it is albeit marginally useful to build these walls somewhere along the line, probably at the time your cultural wall is shot to bits.
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