Deity Challenge - Mao in WW2

[ABigCivFan]

1655AD-1800AD

Spoiler :

1695AD: After brief regroup, resumed push against Bis.




1710AD: Captured Colgne (major target city with Cristo Redenter)


1735AD: Battle of Berlin. Bis got Panzers rolled out of every city every turn by now.




1735AD: There are no cities that a bunch of Artillary and Infantry can not take.




1745AD: Civics. US is better than Police State since it gives so many more base hammers which means faster troop production. This is for all out war obviously.






1745AD: My tanks are on line now. Taking another break against Bis, and he moved his Panzer forces to fight Japan




1755AD: Have you seen a Friendly Toku in your games? Gave him Industrialization.




1770AD: Resumed war against Bis again. Taking on a heavily defended Hamburg. Sacrificed good number of Arties for this city. I had to be aggressive, Panzers on defensive are no better than any other tanks.






1800AD: After my CR2 tanks on line, the city taking pace was much faster. I had very high EP at this points, and used spies to revolt before city attacks.




1800AD: Empire, leading all scores, already at Population Domination limit, just need to push on to kill Roosy, Toku, maybe Stalin to get the land dom. I consider this game won at this point.

 

[voliii]

great game ABigCivFan. Bismarck seemed, or he was, so strong.

 

[CivSetä]

Impressive!

 

[ABigCivFan]

great game ABigCivFan. Bismarck seemed, or he was, so strong.

I accelerated his tech rate with my own bribes. He was running away for a while late game and building all late wonders Cristor/broadway/Eff/R&R and etc. But he somehow failed to tech Assembly line earlier for his UB and Infantry.

Although my slightly less-modern forces constantly faced large quantity of Sam Infantry/Panzers/Bombers/Arty and etc, I was able to concentrate my forces of Protective Infantry/Arty/Anti-tank lead by a Medic3 GG to tear down his best cities. And later mop up with spies/Tanks.

If you survive long enough on Deity through good diplomacy, and set up a good production base to churn out contemporary units like this, chances are you will win regardless what leader you play.

 

[Dirk1302]

Great game . Just read all of this since i've been playing this game myself (almost finished now). My game has some similarities to yours but also significant differences, i hoped to find an opportunity for a renaissance war but with all the jungle i had to clear it just wasn't on. So i also had to tech to the modern era. It seems that this is just the best strat on this map. I'll write a report of what happened later.

I agree with you that if you manage to stay alive with a fair amount of land you'll always get some chances in the endgame. Can be with spamming units as you did here but also space races accompanied by manupilative espionage.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Dirk, yes space is definitly a good option as we do have decent tech rate given other AIs are well balanced.

In my game however Bis got too powerful in the end, he out done me in every department (land, tech, EP, Military, Space, wonders). I just could not stay close to a space race. So I had to slow him down with a triple team (DG, Toku and myself).

I start to appreciate the protective trait even more. I always build a castle in high commerce cities ASAP. In any war situiation dealing with powerful AIs, I have more options with promotions i.e. with Theo new ARcher/gunpowder units can get CG3+Drill1 for initial defenses (or defending newly captured cities). These guys are much stronger than CG2 defenders from other leaders. This gives us much better chance to face off AI's inital strong assult. Also new units can get straight Medic2 when needed.

 

[Dirk1302]

Agreed, i always hated protective because in easier games this trait just doesn't count since you're doing all the attacking yourself with superior units. On deity this trait is often useful as you fight at tech parity (or even inferiority) more often.

Update until 1000 AD , rest'll follow soon.

Spoiler :

I finally decide to move the warrior 1s as this checks out 2s1e and 2s1w, this reveals cow so i settle 1s.

AH is first obviously, then BW, it reveals copper but waiting for axes online is
too dangerous so i go hunting, archery from there. This capital has great production but it's not ultra rich on food so i'm careful not to whip too much there.

Scouting reveals good land that's immediately usable in the east, no early commerce though so settling is costly until cottages in the far east mature. Northern lands are great but partially covered with jungle.

A map like this always makes me greedy so 500 BC:

7 cities already and losing 7gpt at 0 slider%, i've been saving money waiting for the first GS to arrive, looks like part of his money'll be lost to pay the bills. It seems likely already that a short renaissance war is out,to be successful with this you need good research throughout to get to the necessary military advantage. Long term i look good though. Maybe i can go peaceful or i can hit later. Since i'm playing for long term goals liberalism is not so important here, good if i win the race but not disastrous if not.

1AD i'm still around 0 gpt at 0% slider , 8 cities now because i've taken the 3 food resource city in the north.

SOZ 'll be taken out of queue 1 turn before completion, i have 2 cities set to research, once currency + the money for SOZ is in and the gems are online things'll improve. We're handicapped in this game by the commerce poor capital,usually capital is responsible for ~70% of all research after CS, in this case CS'll give us tremendous production in capital but it hardly helps with research.At least i can research at high slider % when i set capital to wealth after CS.

500 AD

I'm out of the economic pit but with 77 bpt at 40% slider i'm not doing too well. as can be seen from the tech situation

I lost most of the FP cottages in the east due to Bismarck culture, i'd regain some of them later,this whole game was a hell of a culture fight before the real fighting started. Most of my other cottages don't do much atm as they're not on rivers.

But i have good food in 2 cities so i'm doing well on the gpp front despite not being philosophical and not having built the NE. Gearing up for lib/gpp

1000 AD

2 turns from lib, unfortunately Bismarck is close too, we'll see.

I haven't said too much about the ai's since you know about them already from ABigCivFan's game, not much different here. Bismarck is the world leader
by some margin, not totally runaway but clearly ahead. Churchill 's doing fine too. Stalin and Gaulle are about average, Roosevelt can keep up in tech so far but his empire looks suspect. Toku's already vassalized by Churchill iirc, he's so insignificant that i don't bother checking. Bismarck,Roosevelt,I and Toku are buddhist, rest hinduist.

 

[cripp7]

Great game CivFan! Way to show how the defensive trait at work, seems that you got a handle on the game at that level. Makes deity look easy!`

 

[Dirk1302]

Until 1800 AD

Spoiler :

1170 AD , I reach chem AD, time for a look at the tech screen:

Roosevelt already has steel, Bismarck doesn't but he's one tech from steel/rifling. Since i have only 8 axes, 4 archers i can forget about a quick successful war renaissance war i think. So i switch first to democracy, then beeline to assembly line hoping to get a better opportunity later.

1470 AD,

Better, i have a monopoly on AL but obviously not for long, Roosevelt seems to fall somewhat behind. I could build up for a infantry/cannon war but research is ok now at 750 bpt and tanks are so much faster. Bismarck really seems too strong to take on right now.

1720 AD,

I'll have to watch this, my only resource of oil and german culture on the tile is rising

Tech screen:

Tanks and bombers researched Roosevelt also has the possibility to build tanks but he hasn't got flight, i can hit him hard now and so i do, his biggest stack is located conveniently.

Declare , after hitting Atlanta,

1760 AD it's all over for America, the war only lasted 8 turns

1800 AD overview with American cities coming online.

I keep the oil for now, still Bismarck as gained 1% despite my efforts. Going to build a christian cathedral here soon.

I have set most my cities to wealth now to reach a decent research rate, the situation is not hopeless. i have 0.6 of Bismarck's power which is decent for the moment.I have been gaining on him every time i started spamming units. The current line up of tanks/bombers against all the modern units in the game except mech inf is bad though so i need to be patient. I have to tech satellites/composites/laser/advanced flight at least from here for mobile artillery modern armor and gunships. At this point i'll have all the ground counters to Bismarck, Modern armor 'll hold his mech inf's in check, gunships'll defend against his armored units, mobile artillery can keep up with the stack and wreak havoc on his cities. Airfight will still be a problem, my bombers are no match for his stealth units.

Later computers/robotics for mech inf 'll also be useful, then stealth but by the time it comes to stealth i think the game'll be decided for better or for worse.

Bismarck is 6 techs from launching atm, it seems inevitable that i need to bring down the spaceship at least once. There is a nice little hill in the neighbourhood of Berlin to land a stack.

I hope that by the time i land there he doesn't launch a nuke on my stack, that'll problem be defeat. Bismarck is UN leader. A non proliferation treaty would serve me tremendously well, unfortunately it hasn't gone up yet.

The rest of the world isn't that interesting, Once in a while Stalin or The Gaulle declares on Churchill or vice versa. Once i'm really getting ready for Bismarck i'll see if i can bribe them. Doubt they can make much of a difference though.

 

[Dirk1302]

Until the end 1919 AD

Spoiler :

It was very likely that i'd have to capture Berlin one time to bring the spaceship down, 1880 AD it's time. The decisive moment in the game, if Bis'd had a tactical nuke and troops in vicinity he' could have annihilated this stack, big as it is. As you can see i've lots MG's that'll dissuade a collateral attack with artillery.

Berlin, second city in the world

About to be razed

He only did a bit of damage with some stealth bombers. Most of his stacks are in the east probably since he's at war with both Gaulle and Stalin at the time. Berlin falls this turn, and the spaceship returns to earth. Mission failed. Razed Berlin and all the wonders of course since i can't defend it. I lose almost all the mobile art, they're stuck in german lands bombarding and doing collateral. Most of the rest of my troops escape. Bismarck's reaction is furious but i have reasonable defence at home (i really spammed a lot of units this game, more than ever before). Once the stack arrives home 2 turns later i'm not in any danger anymore.

Game is basically won now since i have more power now than Bismarck.I'm also Un master now and non proliferation was my first act to improve the world. He builds a second spaceship quite fast though, this one is due to arrive 1912 AD

But it never happened of course, Dortmund falls 1911 AD.

Mission failed again

This time i just took the city and captured all the cities in the vicinity. 1919 AD i call it a day, game is won now,i have almost twice bismarck's power and already captured 4 of his cities. Can capture all of Germany now and will win easily from there.

Long game with lots of MM and a bit tedious at times but hugely enjoyable just the same also because it gave me confidence in a third way to win at deity apart from the standard renaissance war or the turtle up to space after an initial rex. Thx for posting ABigCivFan.

 

[ABigCivFan]

@Dirk

Spoiler :

That did look like a fun game! question: i noticed a large of number of machine guns in your initial stack attacking Berlin; they could not keep up with tanks and mobile Artillaries, did you think about capturing Berlin and try to hold it with the MGs? or later upgrade them to Mech Inf?

I found razing a capital to bring down the ship very difficult, it takes a lot of planning and potentially would waste a lot of units, but sometimes it is the only option.

What about your ship status late game, did you go all out on military or building ship atm?

 

[Dirk1302]

@ABigCivFan

Spoiler :

Indeed i enjoyed myself a lot though it was one of the longest games i ever played. I never planned on keeping Berlin, i was afraid of either a nuke attack on my stack or a massive artillery attack, i couldn't do much about the first but i reckoned that MG's though rather weak at this stage of the game would prevent my stack from total annihilation through total collateral damage. So they were there to protect the initial landing site.

I made a (probably small) mistake there though i should certainly have brought some guerilla infantry/sam infantry/marines. As it was i was somewhat vulnerable especially to gunship attacks. But all in all i probably over estimated Bis's strength. The only real risk was a nuclear attack i'm still not sure if i would have survived this. After taking Berlin i lost most of the mobile art ~15 units and some ~6 city takers, the rest escaped with the transports.

I never built one space part (or apollo for that matter) , if i'd have to play it out to a win from last save i'd just conquer the whole world from west to east at this point.

Actually my research was fine until ~1500 AD but after i just hadn't enough land to really keep up despite all the cottages. This is often a problem with limited land, very good early research especially when pp economics corporation and demo come online research shoots up. But it has to be leveraged into something more tangible (often a renaissance war of course) and apart from the quick war against Roosevelt i just didn't succeed in finding a good opportunity to do this until the end. Strictly speaking i had enough power to take on Bis after the Roosevelt war but fighting with armor bombers against panzer/gunship and jet fighters was lunacy so i had to get those units myself and consequently take down the ship.

I learned one thing more from this game, never try to bomb with normal bombers against jetfighters, tried it once, all 4 bombers got shot down. Maybe that was unlucky but it doesn't seem to be worth it. Mobile artillery on the other hand are enormously strong if you can protect these units, they easily take out mech inf with not too much losses.

The MG's were upgraded to mech inf later.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Impressive modern warfare... great game, both of you!

Cheers,
Raskolnikov

 

[Dirk1302]

Thx, i appreciate that, making the write ups took some time so it's nice that they're read.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Dirk, in the situiation you described (behind on land and tech in the industrial/modearn era), I could often find a small window for a limited warfare against a leading AI using a large number of Infantry/Artillary plus supporing Anti-Tank/Sam and etc.

This is when the human player have gained all the production improving techs (Levee/Factor/Coal plants) which allows us to mass produce military. Often a double team or triple team is required so we do not face those impossible SODs from the Deity AIs. After we have delt with their offensive stacks, we could always take down their cities with a huge stack of inferior units (with a medic3). This is largely due to the fact the AIs are relunctant to use their siege in their land to attack a large human stack or coordinate any large offensive against our stacks. Hence their defenses are mostly limited to a few bombing runs and piling units inside cities which are vulnerable to our CR artillaries.

But after they have gained necessary techs, they do tend to mass produce Modern armor/Mech inf and etc that would quickly end our chance for an Infantry/Artillary based assult.

 

[Dirk1302]

My (very limited) experience with Infantry/artillery is not so positive. I find that when the ai has artillery/railroad they sometimes annihilate stacks that seemed invincible at first sight. So i tend to research through to tanks/bombers so i can weaken the ai from a distance, then send in tanks.

Spoiler :

But your game clearly showed that it can be done , i think you need the team up from the other ais, Bismarck's artillery was just too far away and you clearly handled the rest of his stack well. I probably could have done infantry/artillery also although Bismarck had AL around the same time as i did. I was tempted by the prospect of a quick push against Roosevelt though.

I have fought with modern units before though several times on immortal and also in this deity game, this time to prevent Han from getting cultural:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7091740&postcount=72

Difference with this game is that i'd fought with cannons/rifles earlier to secure a large chunk of land. It's tedious way of playing but the ai's very clumsy with modern units so you have good chances if you're willing to put in the time. The ai has the tendency btw to build way too much mobile sams and subsequently attack with these units.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Infantry/Artillary stacks are slow, but they could chip away neighbor AIs cities quite effectively. If we have enough Infantry + 1 medic3 in the stack, they could take very heavy pounding from Land or air. Artillary are the main city assault force and they do not recieve collateral damage. So the Infantry serve to protect Artillary and mop up.

Rail network allows us to deliver units to a single point from all our cities within 1-2 turns. This makes sure our assult does not lose steam.

I found a renaissance war is only effective against backwards AIs, a large war without Levee/Factory/Coal plant/Railroad against a strong deity AI is just too difficult.

 

[Dirk1302]

I'm beginning to lean to your point of view more and more, renaissance war is almost sure fire on immortal and below. It also works against the likes of Pacal II, Ghandi ea on deity. As Rusten has shown several times fast mounted wars against these sort of ai's also work fine. I'll experiment more with something like this, you only need mil trad for cuirassiers, then again i still think you need a small ai to be successful with cuirassiers, against larger ai's you'll have to heal them and then the ai can regroup. Cavs are much better of course but this needs rifling and the ai researches at least as fast as you do in this era.

Against big ai's renaissance wars are often not on (at least not for me, i'm not good enough to research so fast in the early game that i can successfully take on these giants in renaissance) So indeed in my latest games i tend to strike later and with good results.

Then again you'll always need to be on the lookout for a renaissance war, if you can catch an ai with only longbows and knights it's still the best way i think.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Dirk, an earlier war i.e. renaissance war against a weak AI does have a big advantage - earlier GGs/Military Academies which makes any future war effort much easier.

Deity war is all about production, if human have multiple cities that can churn out comtemporary units every 1-2 turns (with HE, Mil Academies, improvements), the 60% production bonus the AIs have over human means nothing.

 

[Dirk1302]

Apart from the extra land which is useful too. Indeed we proved we could keep up this game, war against Roos provided me with HE and at least one mil academy. Periods i wasn't researching (meaning setting the cities to wealth/research) i was churning out modern units ~4 turns in the slowest cities, 1~2 turns in the fastests. Some 4 units a turn is 80 units in 20 turns, 80 units is a good stack against most ai's also on deity.

In a way this is logical too, the farther you get in the game, the less the initial bonuses the ai gets mean. I don't think He and academies totally compensate for the 60% production bonus. Humans can focus on building only units though, ai's just build something of everything.