Deity Challenge - Pangea

[Rusten]

@Dirk

Spoiler :

Even if the worker is idle it's usually better to work the "great" tiles as soon as possible--it's not easy to beat a 4+2 cow. Furthermore there's always the possibility of popping a useful tech from a hut and scouting with the worker.

 

[mystyfly]

@Rusten

Spoiler :

Do you really use your worker for scouting on deity?? If you set out late, the land is full of archers/warriors, if you set out early there are wolves and panthers, 2MP units around. This looks too risky for me.

 

[Rusten]

@Rusten

Spoiler :

Do you really use your worker for scouting on deity?? If you set out late, the land is full of archers/warriors, if you set out early there are wolves and panthers, 2MP units around. This looks too risky for me.

Spoiler :

It depends. It's not as if I send him out on any expeditions--just checking out some nearby tiles for seafood and similar. You could easily scout some tiles to the east here without any risk of losing the worker. IIRC you couldn't know this until the first border pop though.

 

[Dirk1302]

@mystyfly and Rusten

Spoiler :

I'll post my rough calculation why i think worker first is still best. Mind you i didn't check on the foodbox or worker build times at size 4 exactly but this is what i came up with comparing.

Research AH,mining,BW,since there's no commerce only hammers and turns to do things have to be taken into account for comparision

1)
grow city to 4 first

Grow 1->2 +3 food surplus, foodbox full at 22 = 8 turns 1 hammer *8 = 8
Grow 2->3 +4 food surplus, foodbox full at 24 = 6 turns 1 hammer * 6 = 6
Grow 3->4 +4 food surplus, foodbox full 26 = 7 turns 2 hammers * 7 = 14
------------------------------------------
21 turns 28 hammers

Now build worker in ~ 10 turns

31 turns 28 hammers + worker city at size 4

2) worker first AH

15 turns build worker

Grow 1->2 +4 food surplus, foodbox full at 22 = 7 turns 3 hammer *7 = 21
Grow 2->3 +5 food surplus, foodbox full at 24 = 5 turns 3 hammer * 5 = 15
Grow 3->4 +5 food surplus, foodbox full 26 = 5 turns 4 hammers = 20

32 turns 56 hammers + worker city at size 4

Now this is a very rough calculation (i prefer playing the game to calculations actually), i didn't check on the foodbox size for instance and rounded some figures but the hammer difference i came up with convinced me to go for the worker first. I was a bit surprised by the big difference in hammers.

The underlying thought here is, a city at size 4 without any improvement doesn't do much more than a city at one especially since there's no extra commerce involved in this start. It just eats almost all it produces so building the worker still takes a lot of turns.

Edit: So the calculation shows that what Rusten said is spot on

 

[mystyfly]

@Dirk:

Spoiler :

The underlying thought here is, a city at size 4 without any improvement doesn't do much more than a city at one especially since there's no extra commerce involved in this start.

That's why I think growing to 4 is too much - I don't like idle workers and I don't like unimproved terrain - so I did something in between, as I said, I grew to size 3

BTW Had a look at you save now. You're fully concentrating on rushing han? - Good luck then, you'll need it I'll follow your game with interest!

 

[Dirk1302]

70 turns till 1200 BC

Spoiler :

Turns out this start isn't as bad as it seemed at first, 2 gold really helps in the early game. Building axes now hoping to get to Circassian and Saxon first. I leave Bactrian to Ham. Even without these 2 cities there's room for six so we're in the game at least, we really could have done with a better capital though. This'll hurt early midgame.

EditMystyfly, after 30 turns i thought i had to take on Han as i hadn't seen the choke i'll try to expand peacefully now.

 

[Dirk1302]

I continued this game until 1515 AD, will post about it in the near future. It's a very tense and challenging game. It would be nice to see some others try it too, Rusten perhaps?

 

[Rusten]

^ My game is on hold as I'm not using 3.17 for the time being. I would have to patch back (or dual install) in order to get my save working. I will patch back sooner or later though--it's just a matter of when.

Looking forward to continuing--it seems to be a fun game.

 

[Flo7]

@ Dirk,
I will definitely continue my game too

Unfortunately I wont be able to play before the weekend . I hope some more peolple will have played the start by then.

I will write a little summary of opening strategies (until turn 100), comparing the approaches. I am really interested in that part since here I have the biggest problems in my games... and I would like to know what works and what doesnt

 

[Dirk1302]

Ok , i'll put my game on hold for now and take some time out to make some write ups until 1 AD or maybe 1000 AD.

 

[mystyfly]

I'm currently playing the cathy LHC, as I really wanted to play one of these lately but never found time. Thing is I'm rather late and started it after my first session of this game.

Really looking foreward to finishing it. Nice scenario, Flo

 

[oyzar]

Here is my save from 50 ad, don't really feel like writing a spoiler for it now since i played it same time as the other one...

 

[Dirk1302]

^Looked at your save, You're in good position i feel.

Spoiler :

Not overexpanding means you're right on your way to developing the land you have, 6 cities is enough to leave all options open.You've got good research already and currency and cs and aren't even in yet. I thought of playing this way but ultimately went with my first thought taking some barb cities far away from the capital, they'll help in the long run but hurt me now in maintainance. It strikes me that you use none of the golds, the gold near the ivory , did Han beat you to it or did you prefer the ivory? Expansion'll be needed later or do you have something cultural in mind?

 

[oyzar]

@ Dirk:

Spoiler :

I prolly played badly with the gold as i figured with no food it was better to just use them for happiness... I don't think you can go cultural with that set of opponents... None of them are anywhere near peacefull.. Probably attacking with rifles or something...

 

[Rusten]

Patched and played up until about 1300 AD and things are going smooth. Might report tonight if I have time.

 

[Rusten]

Brief summary up until 1500 AD (from 1AD).

Spoiler :

Spawn another GS after some turns. I mentioned an academy in my other report, but I decided otherwise. I’m not going to be in bureaucracy much due to an upcoming renaissance war and the capital isn’t that commerce rich. With that in mind I lightbulbed philosophy instead to allow manipulating politics and do some more trades.

- The AP is Buddhist.

Pretty standard follow-up: I get theatres in most cities and start on the globe (rice+clams east of Aachen).

I do my best to get Louis to friendly in order to trade techs as WFYABTA struck early this game. I succeeded at this (friendly status) around 700 AD which is about the time I completed liberalism (640 AD—lightbulbed education once) and took nationalism for the TM (which I got).

I popped another GS thanks for the TM and start a second GA to speed up my war. I really want to hit Hannibal before he gets rifling on his own and this reduces the risk. I’ve decided to head for rifling as both Hammurabi and Hannibal got their hands on WEs so cuirassiers would struggle.

With Louis’ aid I get through guilds -> banking and MT quickly. I pre-make trebuchets/knights while waiting for rifling/MT and try to be as fast as humanly possible.

I declare on Hannibal 1210 AD or so with an army of about 25 riflemen, 10-15 cavalry and 10-15 trebs. Most of the army is already at the front lines as I drafted from the distanced cities first. This army would probably be enough by itself as Hannibal still lacks rifling at this time, but just to be safe I bribed Bismarck into the war as well for rep. parts and ~200 gold. What makes this move ease the pain is that Hannibal’s SoD will now be stuck in Poverty Point (see screen below) or have to go through German territory. I spotted the bulk of his army there a turn ago and he does not have open borders with SB (he was probably about to attack him again as he was only stopped by me bribing him to peace earlier).

He gets smashed easily—I take city after city.

1300 AD:

This right here pretty much seals the game—Hannibal finishes the SoL in Carthage. That wonder is incredible on a map like this and I will raze ahead later on with mercantilism+SoL+representation.

I capture Carthage 1350 AD and take the 2 other big cities nearby 1390 AD or sooner. I accept his capitulation 1390 AD. He is currently friendly with Louis so I still have the option of tech trading—but if so I’d have to abandon representation for now (need to run HR).

Louis has had enough on his hands for a while and was obviously targeting SB. I join in on the war when he attacks as my hands are empty and I’ve got some spare units from the last war.

By 1490 AD I’ve taken 2 of SB cities and the game is in great shape. I’m doing well in tech, just lacking steam power and some unnecessary techs for parity (some more for Bismarck) and I’m going to run away soon as my science rate will double or more shortly with infrastructure and proper civics. Currently ETA 1 for biology which nobody has as well.

I captured a lot of towns/villages from Hannibal (even more to the south nearby Carthage). The improved farms, matured cottages, mercantilism, representation, my huge empire compared to rivals (Bismarck has tundra for the most part) and the SoL pretty much seals the game--I don’t think I’m going to finish. I just cleaned up a different map with a very tedious end game thus I’m not motivated to head for another. I think I’m just going to leave it here indefinitely. Furthermore I tend to lose interest in Pangea maps after the renaissance—they are skewed in favour of warmongering and that would be quite easy here I think (but very time-consuming). Could go for a diplomatic or space victory as well, but domination would be easier.

Sorry for the lack of detail, but I’ve done so many write-ups lately thus I went lazy-mode today.

 

[Dirk1302]

Until 1 AD

Spoiler :

Last post 1200 bc i had founded 3 cities and had researched all the worker techs except fishing/masonry. I research
fishing now for workboat exploration this is important for trade routes later when i get sailing/currency. Could have
researched masonry now to work the marble but i decide to go for Aesthetics now. I'm pretty sure i can trade this Aesthetics
anyway once i get it but the sooner i get this tech the better the chance i can also trade Alpha around.

Library was built in capital 1200 BC and i assign 2 scientists now.

I have stagnated Prague at working copper and gold, this city is not only useful for commerce, i'ts also reasonable
at making axes/settlers/workes. It does so until approx 500 ad leaving the other cities free for other things

775 BC i capture Circassian, a beautiful city, spice/rice/2 dyes and a river with grassland tiles.

700 BC my first GS is in, make an academy in Aachen, could have settled him since my science rate is not that
high (40%) but that'll hurt later since i have to sacrifice another one later on for academy. I could keep the 2
scientists assigned but i prefer to grow the capital to happy cap now and work as many cottages as possible. Plan is to
chop GL anyway pre AD so i don't need to worry about GS now.

It's a big year for the Holy Rome empire because they learn the secrets of Aesthetics and as it turns out later
they're the first to do so. Bismarck has Alpha but he lacks Poly. Since i need Poly anyway for GL (we have marble) i
decide to research this tech instead of a few turns into Alpha hoping Bismarck doesn't research it in the meantime.

650 BC Polytheism is researched, i need to research one turn into Alpha now.

625 BC Saxon is captured, another nic city, it has access to pigs and a floodplain and some other good tiles.
it's also one tile of the coast which is annoying.


600 BC trade Aest,Poly for alpha
575 BC research Priesthood, trade several techs for IW and Sailing
550 BC trade several techs for Monarchy, Masonry

Sailing was perhaps expensive enough to trade for, Masonry is dubious, it'll speed up GL since i can go on to
literature now but these trades cost me dearly later.Researching Sailing Masonry together would have cost me 5 turns
at that moment and i feel now that i should have done that.Seems WFYABTA strikes significantly earlier on deity than
on immortal.

600 BC Han switches from Judaism (Ham's religion) to Hinduism (Bull's religion) These 3 are my neighbours, i'll
follow Han asap. I won't say to much atm about Monty,Bismarck and Louis, Suffice to say that fighting has begun
in this area between Monty and Louis pre 1000 BC. Also Han has declared on Bismarck pre 1000 BC
(this surprises me, Han is not that peaceful but he uses to declare later than this)

575 BC Hinduism and Judaism spread to my lands
550 BC convert to Hinduism,as far as i remember i haven't had too much problems with Han in previous
games but he strikes me as more dangerous than Ham who's rather peaceful despite the aggressive trait.

325 BC Lit is in

275 BC math. in
150 BC i get the important currency after which my science rate shoots up.I'm able to sell off things
like aest, lit etc freely now so i raise the slider to 100%.

100 BC GL chopped
50 BC i get COL
25 BC i get calender in trade
1 AD i'm 10 turns from CS so i'm ok in the science department.

Good start, unfortunately as you can see from the screenshots i'm under a lot of cultural pressure, i lost gold
to Han already, i'm in danger of losing pigs to Ham and also spices to Han.


Goals are now:

-settle the 2 coastal fish sites one settlers is on it's way already.
-Get Ne up, run scientists under pacificm
-Get lib first
-Build GT in Nurembergb
-build workshops and subsequently a good army,pick a victim, probably Ham for 2 reasons,

* He won't build as much units as Han or Bull.
* If he's gone i won't have to defend the new lands culturally, on the contrary it solves some cultural problems.

@Rusten, well played, i'll have chances to win my game which i played till 1515 AD but the game isn't sealed by any means at that time.

 

[Rusten]

@Dirk, thanks, your game is looking good too at 1 AD. Had a look at the save and looking forward to the next update.

Spoiler :

I hope you remembered to hook up the incense and riverside dye shortly after 1 AD--those are really great tiles. I noticed that you got calendar just now though, so I can see why they're idle for the time being. Circassian is a really great commerce city. Mine got hampered by Hannibal claiming the rice making it work a lot of farms--but even so it turned out great.

Did you get to feel the UB kicking in? I sure did! I haven't thought very much of it pre-corporations before, but I must say it made a big difference in my game due to the aggressive settling. I guess it has synergy with aggressive imperialistic settling after all. The only problem is that not having economic traits makes the former difficult, but cities like my Augsburg (gold, fish and clams) and Circassian can keep a decent rate even before the UB and then go into massive surplus when the rathaus is in. I don't think I payed more than 3 gold per turn for that city of mine later on and it was really far off!

You'll have to settle cities with instant commerce in order to keep your economy intact for it to work though. I kind of like it; REXing wouldn't be much fun if it would work every time. It needs to be situational to keep the fun factor and to avoid getting cheesy like the GLH.

I love how Montezuma is annoyed towards pretty much everything (and furious towards SB). Did he attack SB next because he's in WHEEOH-mode at 1 AD.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Rusten,

Spoiler :

It's been a week ago i played 1AD-1000 AD but on the top of my head:
I'd have to check about the incense, spices and dye got hooked up almost immediately but i might have forgotten about the incense until +/- 500 AD, it is a great tile but gives only 1 food and i needed food bad in capital to grow.

I think i built a Rathouse pretty soon in Saxon but waited a bit in the other cities, i don't build courthouses as early as i used too, they're expensive and often other buildings give more immediate benefit.Rathouses are better than courthouses so i might have prioritized them more but science was not the issue in this game for me (at least until 1500 AD), i could research 100% for a long time by selling techs but also resources to AI. Culture and WFYBTA are my big enemies this game.

Since this is a very interesting game i'll go into more detail in my next update until 1500 AD after checking on some of my saves.

I probably have to read an article on culture anyway but can you explain briefly how culture specifically works in regard to Augsburg in your empire? You mentioned that it was important that you hit 100 culture before SB. It's the threshold for a border pop of course but if SB gets more culture subsequently for instance 300 vs your 200 wouldn't the tile go back to SB? Or does he have to wait until the next border pop (at 500 iirc)?

 

[Rusten]

@Rusten,

Spoiler :

I probably have to read an article on culture anyway but can you explain briefly how culture specifically works in regard to Augsburg in your empire? You mentioned that it was important that you hit 100 culture before SB. It's the threshold for a border pop of course but if SB gets more culture subsequently for instance 300 vs your 200 wouldn't the tile go back to SB? Or does he have to wait until the next border pop (at 500 iirc)?

Spoiler :

Once you hit a new border pop you start pouring hidden culture into the previous one (and even more into the former). Regarding Augsburg; when you reach 100 culture you start pouring 20 extra culture per turn into your 2nd ring (the gold here). This is why it's very important to get there first. If I can start pouring extra culture into the tile before SB (which is what I aimed for and what happened) I will be able to control it. It doesn't matter if I have 200 culture when he has 300 if I made it to 100 culture several turns before he did--I will still control the tile.

The hidden culture is what makes creative such a great trait at higher levels. I often see people mentioning creative just to avoid making monuments, but the true power comes from half-price library for early specialists and +2 extra pt (and early library culture) meaning you get to those early border pops sooner and thus can control important resources.

Needless to say it's somewhat frustrating when people say that making Stonehenge=having the creative trait.