Deity conquest 1190 AD

[MacBalt]

Basically it's capitulating civs as fast as you can to get the earliest finish date(and a higher score)[I think]

Yes, thanks, but it sounds like there are some interesting game mechanics behind what makes an AI capitulate. I know about the number of bordering tiles thing, for example, and that killing enemy units while not having one's own units killed is important, but is there a "speed" or movement factor too? Does it provide some kind of advantage to kill units inside a city rather than outside one? etc.

 

[Grashopa]

Search for TMIT and capitulation and vassals. I don't usually finish games since I don't like all the clicking so I don't pay too close attention to all of TMITs rants about the vassalization mechanics.

 

[MacBalt]

Okay, found some of it...

Here is a related discussion thread: "Surely You Must Be Joking"
This post is especially interesting: "DanF5771"

If anyone knows where I can find more, please post a link. I like this kind of ranting!

 

[Cía]

To be able to bulb Machinery with a GS I must:

1. Not have Fishing (leads to Sailing bulb)
2. Not have Code of Laws or Drama (leads to Philosophy bulb)
3. Not have Civil Service or Theology (leads to Paper bulb)
4. Have Aesthetics, Mathematics, Alphabet, and Iron Working (to eliminate those bulbs)
5. Have Metal Casting and Pottery (prereqs for Machinery)

To then go and (almost) bulb Engineering with a GS I just need Construction while making sure I don't have any of the "banned" techs above.

When I tried out this strat myself I got a little bit confused, cause when I had bulbed machinery my GSs wanted to bulb fishing next, and thus I couldnt get engineering. I guess that as soon as you have construction researched the GSs bulb engineering instead of fishing?

 

[Habitus]

When I tried out this strat myself I got a little bit confused, cause when I had bulbed machinery my GSs wanted to bulb fishing next, and thus I couldnt get engineering. I guess that as soon as you have construction researched the GSs bulb engineering instead of fishing?

Yup

 

[kazapp]

When I tried out this strat myself I got a little bit confused, cause when I had bulbed machinery my GSs wanted to bulb fishing next, and thus I couldnt get engineering. I guess that as soon as you have construction researched the GSs bulb engineering instead of fishing?

I don't need to know anything about the bulb order to tell you that without Construction, you can't get Engineering. (Before Trebuchets comes Catapults)

 

[DanielTorrence]

@hr_oskar

From my own game experience, I did not think something like that is feasable. Congratulations to a great win, I can see there is a lot to improve in my games So you basically used the war against Bismark to level up your troops and then went for Mansa?
Did you stop teching after engineering/guilds. I mean, after the second vassall, maintainance surely became an issue, I remember AZs videos where he was whipping court houses to stay alive...

 

[hr_oskar]

Thanks

Levelling up my troops was always just a side benefit or consequence of the fighting, but with siege warfare it comes quite easily as you lose so few units. I chose to attack Bismarck first because I wanted to keep his northern cities (so better get them early) and I was confident I could cap him before he'd get Feudalism. Mansa on the other hand had Skirmishers and was about to discover Feudalism. Capping MM was a high priority thing though as he's always the top techer.

Actually I teched all the way to Gunpowder and stopped there. Maintenance was an issue especially with so many units outside of friendly territory, but you get a lot of gold from the conquests. AZ usually keeps much more of the captured cities than I did in this game, so he has more maintenance to pay.

 

[Steve the Noble]

@hr_oskar: Very nice write-ups. Detailed yet clear.

Well-planned route through the techs. Knowing the great person tech preferences is underrated.

 

[DanielTorrence]

Thanks

Levelling up my troops was always just a side benefit or consequence of the fighting, but with siege warfare it comes quite easily as you lose so few units.

I tried your approach and played really focussed (that seems to help a lot ), replayed Immortal University with Frederick and another game with Suleiman. In both cases, it worked perfect! It was only immortal and my finish time was in both cases by far not competitive with yours (1570 and 1550), but for me this is a huge leap forward, I never finished a game on immortal that early. Great strategy article, very inspiring, thanks a lot. Never thought I could manage an attack date with Trebs around 200 B.C.

I think, it helps to keep the more nice cities with the wonders, or/and the capitals, even with the revolt chances. On the other hand, it really takes ages until the conquered cities become productive, so returning them was a smart move as well.

 

[Dirk1302]

^ It doesn't always work but it's a pretty good strat.Apart from Hr_oskar here I think Mylene should get credit for this strat as well, i played her Landknechtness game and i was pretty surprised how smooth it all runs. Tried it offline on some other deity maps, not 100% success but especially with Toku or SB around it's a pretty sure hit.One game I failed badly against Mansa and Pacal though, was my earliest eng date (400 BC) but Pacal was already there and Mansa got it soon after i declared on him. So always play the map but remember this as a good one to fall back on if circumstances are right.

 

[DanielTorrence]

^ It doesn't always work but it's a pretty good strat. Mylene should get credit for this strat as well, i played her Landknechtness game and i was pretty surprised how smooth it all runs.

You are right, I somehow missed Mylenes challenge - I guess because it was on Deity . It lays out the foundations pretty good. Saw an attempt of AZ, but like in your one game, the AIs were really fast with engineering. This is obviously not soo much a problem on immortal. But it really depends on the map. Having ivory or gold around doesn't hurt either, because with a happy cap of 5 its hard to get enough workers out or infrastructure done, and fallback can be tough - in my game, I started the rush with only three cities, which is not enough for alternativs.

I dont like, that one has to wait for IW so long, I usually trade it for alpha, but if I am unlucky, all the iron sites are settled by that time. Doing it with no crossbows and landsknechts might be difficult or include higher losses.

Its great that the skilled players try out new things and the cfc is out there to promote these interesting approaches, it makes playing much more versatile.

 

[Dirk1302]

Iron is important. Actually you need iron or phants and with phants you can choose an elepult rush as an alternative.If you don't have either things get tough. Copper would give you the possibility to build an axe/spear combination or else feudalism gives you lb's but i wouldn't feel comfortable at all with only this. Copper fails after the ai gets crossbows and longbows are vulnerable to HA's which will flank your trebs in addition.

AZ showed some nice rushes in his video's, from what i've seen most of those are mounted rushes. A knight rush means researching guilds and you still need to strike before the ais get engineering. To try something like that on deity you need a very high commerce start. For the treb strat moderate research is enough especially with a philo leader.

 

[hr_oskar]

I don't particularly like the knights rush as it's entirely too vulnerable to the AI getting Engineering. Engineering isn't that big a deal for a treb army, it just slows it down a bit.

I recently realized that if you get into a bind with this strat, you can continue down the same tech path towards Chemistry -> Steel + Military Science. If you avoid Paper and Optics, a GS can bulb Chemistry before anything else. You need 2 GS to fully bulb it ofc but that's definitely worthwhile. Teching Steel would still be a pain but if you get Cannons + Grenadiers you could be golden for another round of siege domination (this time ignoring castles) all the way to Infantry. Facing Cavalry on the field would be dangerous though (flank attacks and no real counter) so I'd try to hold on to the veteran Pikemen.

 

[Dirk1302]

Agree about knight rush, it will seldom be feasible on deity. Should definitely be possible on immortal on some starts though.

I don't fully agree about trebs and AI engineering. If your army is big enough you can push on after engineering but you should have made considerable progress by that time. In the game i mentioned above with Pacal and MM i had conquered one MM city then he got eng, next city was a pain, no accuracy trebs yet. I finally took his second city while he got guilds this all happened around 1 AD. His capital was next, when i was almost done bombarding this time using some accuracy trebs he had 25 units there including 10 knights and some cats. He countered with cats and knights. My pikes defended reasonably but i lost most of my siege, end of game.

So yes it may take a bit longer but the ai must be weakened enough by that time to prevent a counter as i described above.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I've been doing some tests, and have found that doing a Chariot rush if you have a close neighbor can speed up your Engineering time quite a bit.

 

[hr_oskar]

A Chariot rush on deity?

 

[Dirk1302]

^Yes that's possible if the circumstances are right. In Duckweed warmongers pt1 or 2 in my sig most of the participants rushed Shaka with chariots. Horses in BFC iirc.

 

[Keilah]

I wonder if this strategy could be improved by building the great wall (should get you a spy around the time you complete your library) and using the infiltrate mission to steal a few techs instead of self-teching them.

I actually had no idea trebs were so boss. I worldbuildered some scenarios and was shocked to see that with a CR promo or two they get winning odds vs longbows in cities. Wat!

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Yea you need the right circumstances, but if you have them you can speed it up by like 100-200 years.