[GS] Deity Early War Advice

[nathanvjbrown]

Trying to get into Deity games. I can completely stomp Immortal and I won a peaceful Deity game as Mansa Musa a couple of weeks ago but I suck at warfare. I watch a lot of let's plays and the youtube hosts make it look easy: build like 3 archers and a warrior then go take that 13 combat strength city the AI forward settled onto you. How can that possibly go wrong?

If I decide to turtle early game I can usually get an opportunistic war going later but whenever I try some early aggression I always, always, always out-teched and out-produced before I can do anything. I tried playing as the Aztecs and an early invasion by Dido got my tiles improved, Campuses built from the free builders. I even got a free city in retaliation, until my neighbour Peter also declared war on me. I peaced out with Dido, invaded Peter's land but a military emergency for the one city I took from Dido just came up right after our peace deal expired: great, at war with 2 AI and all the city states. While I was holding my own on two fronts, I was getting nowhere and barely had any infrastructure but also too few units to press forward against Peter's great Catapult army, jungle coverage and city state allies invading my territory (the 6 swordsmen Akkad were kinda a thorn in my side when I hadn't reached crossbows yet).

I've tried playing as Persia and beelining Immortals. I can unlock them between turn 35-40 but by the time I've gotten more than one out I'll be met with crossbowmen in the enemy cities. In one game, I managed to take some Dutch cities but they were so large and surrounded by other cities across a narrow strait (that I couldn't see due to fog of war) that they almost instantly flipped back ,even with amenities, loyalty policies and garrisons.

Nubian archer rushes don't seem to go well for me. I spawned near Korea and the Khmer who were at war, and Korea was losing so I declared onto them since they only had 70 combat strength. Couple of turns after I declared their capital increased to around 42 combat strength (and it was their capital that was most accessible to me due to mountains between us).

Just tried another Nubian game, started near Gandhi who held a city for around 20 turns from my 5 Nubian Archers and my Warrior because of a single elephant garrison that increased it to 40 something combat strength. When I finally took the city, I didn't have the loyalty to keep hold of it, so I moved to the capital, promoted 4/5 archers to level four but 2 fresh elephants and a warrior coming in from other cities wiped them out. He also had a promoted Victor in his capital to prevent it being sieged.

My games seem to look nothing like what I see on youtube lol.

 

[Bliss]

What game speed is this?
Did you have an advantage against your enemies? Terrain, resource, position?
Did you stop building units at some point to develop your cities? When?

The faster the game pace, the more it benefits turtling up and improving your own stuff. Don't declare war if you do not have a clear advantage. Use scouts and military score to measure their threat.

 

[Victoria]

Everything has to be concentrated and efficient to a large degree and have some luck.
Deity is now a lot harder than it was.
People research AH first to see if they can get horsemen quick is one sort of OK fast strategy, but you have to be fast, pisk a civ being harassed by barbs or another enemy and be damn careful. Even chopping in units can help.
I personally try to build a force and defend the first wave attack which seems to happen in about 80% of situations overall but for a coastal civ that will be 50ish % and someone like China which is central, they have big probs in this area.

 

[Leucarum]

I think the reason the archers often work well early is that the AI can be very easily baited into a bad position. Rather than trying to go on the offensive immediately I've found I often spend the first part of a war tricking the AI into positions where my archers can whittle down their forces. Good positioning and focussed fire can help you come back from a tech disadvantage and let you win an attrition battle. Marching straight in often puts you in the position where you're the one suffering attrition and on Deity you won't have the troops to afford that.

Adding a scout into your early warfare mix is also useful since the AI seems to go after the weakest unit it can. For ages I had no idea how good they are for getting the AI to go where you want...

My guess would be, rather than focus on the unique units available to your civ and thinking 'eagle warrior rush', look at the terrain to find the best possible meat grinder. Somewhere where your AI opponent will be exposed on flat open ground while your archers can fire from hills/forests. If you have time, start getting your troops in position before the war. Then when the AI attacks, focus on how to make the AI go where you want...

 

[Victoria]

For ages I had no idea how good they are for getting the AI to go where you want..

Its quite a subtle ability, glad someone else appreciates it.Takes a bit of getting used to.

 

[Ihodael]

I think the reason the archers often work well early is that the AI can be very easily baited into a bad position.

In 5 & 6, without the unit stacking, I believe that all warfare should be defense then offense combo. Ranged, terrain, cities+encampments give you an advantage to massacre the AI, accumulate promotions, then go on the offensive.

And the AI, at war, always come for you...

 

[Leucarum]

Its quite a subtle ability, glad someone else appreciates it.Takes a bit of getting used to.

I don't think I'm completely used to it, the AI still occasionally does something I didn't expect... But my bacon has been saved many times by a scout luring a chariot into the open or playing pied piper of Hamlin to some warriors keeping them from heading towards me. Even if the scout dies, 2-3 turns of distraction can often enough to turn defeat into victory on deity.

 

[Victoria]

Even if the scout dies,

And to me this sacrificial aspect is another option, one of many small abilities it has. I just find they give you alternatives and make the game more interesting.

 

[nathanvjbrown]

Thanks for the advice, finally managed to win a couple of early wars. Chopping helped a lot actually! I've been afraid to chop but I realised if it's a forest hill tile it's basically a free chop, still wary of chopping flat river forests tho. Need to work on that. The next hurdle for me has been the aftermath of the war: grievances, loyalty, diplomacy with other civs, military emergencies even when I take an enemy city when they declared on me, etc but I'm working on that.

Eventually got a good game going as Alexander where I started close to Georgia who basically autodenounced me, but only sent about 4 units allowing me to slowly push an advantage. She put catapults in her final two cities so I had to wait for a couple of unique units which I chopped out (bear in mind, the war went so badly for her I still managed to settle and get a little bit of infrastructure going thanks to chops). Met America just a couple turns before I took her capital, he was actually trapped behind a city state on the land bridge connecting the two continents so taking out Georgia has secured me the whole continent for myself. It's about turn 200 now, I have about 350 science per turn and Korea has like 200. Korea has been stuck at like 8 cities and I think I must have around 15 now with even more room to expand.

War looks like a pain in the ass at this point because the AI and I have few coastal cities, high combat strength in their cities and it just looks unnecessary, but at least I have four techs on Korea. Thing I'll just play the game out to a peaceful victory.

 

[Velvet glove]

One thing that I find helps if you have a troublesome neighbour is to plan the defense with the settling of the city. I look for choke points that can be fortified easily by a single or several warriors in a line that allows a single warrior to be attacked from at most two places. Mountains and water help a lot in forming such lines. Ideally the line is all in your territory so they get +15 healing and on hills/forests. Having a reserve warrior or two to replace heavily damaged ones can also help against a very aggressive attack.

Often I try not to expose even a single tile of the city, because if they have many units then even a single attack per turn can wear the city down. Although a tile can be exposed to help wear them down if you are confident you can regain it safely if the city health goes too low.

 

[nathanvjbrown]

One thing that I find helps if you have a troublesome neighbour is to plan the defense with the settling of the city. I look for choke points that can be fortified easily by a single or several warriors in a line that allows a single warrior to be attacked from at most two places. Mountains and water help a lot in forming such lines. Ideally the line is all in your territory so they get +15 healing and on hills/forests. Having a reserve warrior or two to replace heavily damaged ones can also help against a very aggressive attack.

Often I try not to expose even a single tile of the city, because if they have many units then even a single attack per turn can wear the city down. Although a tile can be exposed to help wear them down if you are confident you can regain it safely if the city health goes too low.

Thanks! I've done this a lot in the past, usually I'm ok on the defence, I just tend to struggle to turn it around. Tbh I actually love blocking mountain chokepoints with units to secure some easily defensible land for myself. Lately I've been doing it when I think my neighbour is going to declare war on me so I can block their units off and watch them just sit there for 30 turns. When I was new to the game I'd riddle mountain chokepoints with forts/encampments/walled cities and then never use my defences because the AI never declared war on me.

 

[Velvet glove]

.

 

[Casualty of war]

Deity AI beelines Machinery like it's going out of style, so they will have Crossbowmen easily by Turn 60 making Catapults to keep themselves busy in the meantime. I used to like to level up almost exclusively the left side but now I find I need Turtle power to keep my melee units from getting shot to pieces.

Try not to pick a fight with the Civs that went with Oligarchy; the difficulty boost to Combat Strength plus that governmental boost is brutal.

The AI has gotten better at flanking when the opportunity is there, which is just enough of a CS boost to clean up your units with a one-two punch in most cases.

 

[Stacked_Deck]

I find the best use of early war is to pillage as much as you can. Raiding gives you the resources needed for a much more potent force in the future, and doesn't require anywhere near the amount of units as conquest due to needing to move quickly to mitigate loyalty pressure.

Keeping that military pressure up will also prevent the AI from settling towards you. In the ancient/classical era I find it much more valuable to capture their settlers and place them where I want than to take their waterless flatland city that's built an entertainment complex.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

My favorite is when you have two unfriendly aggressive AI neighbors and you follow a Barb Scout into 2 Barb Horseman just waiting for you and laughing lol. Top it off with going Builder First and you don't have enough troops for the DoW and Barbarian Invasion. I guess I am the only player on Deity who has some horrible start/land and the AI is just dropping cities all over the place with a massive Army on my doorstep

This isn't always the case. Many games I just roll the AI or coast my way to victory but sometimes I get games where it seems nearly impossible or unwinnable but I do believe in this theory that every game is a win no matter what... if you make the correct builds.

Honestly though... Breaking Walls seems to be a pain in the Early Game at times.
Especially if they took Defender of the Faith and have Great Generals, etc. etc.
Many of my recent games, I just turtle up and try to get everyone allied and tech to Bombers / Jet Bombers.
I have yet to see the AI be able to counter an Air Force.
The only exception is a Sneaky Runaway Religious Victory which I have seen the AI win around turn 180 before but that is very rare.
However, you should check the Religious Situation from time to time.

 

[Victoria]

I guess I am the only player on Deity who has some horrible start/land and the AI is just dropping cities all over the place with a massive Army on my doorstep

Nope, you are not. I limit my losses by starting with the right thing for what civ I have. For example China may have some great features but the fact it starts in the middle of a landmass, often on grass with no real early advantage bar some builder forts can be a bit of a challenge and you are a fool not to drop out some troops first but others like seafaring ones at least limit barbs and civs getting them on mass early.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

If someone already said it I didn't notice.
Anyways, if your neighbor is in a Dark Age and you are Normal or Golden...
You can roll the AI pretty quick.
Of course the opposite is true that you don't want to attack if you are Dark and they aren't!

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Early war seems to be hit or miss, sometimes even if you have strong early advantages. If you have the hammers and the iron/horses sometimes you can overwhelm the AI even after they have X-bows. That isn't guaranteed though, and if your push fails you might wind up very far behind. Some cities are almost impossible to take due to terrain. Personally, I'm a fan of Oligarchy when I need to be violent. I like to give swords (UU replacement) the turtle promotion first because it keeps them alive, then I work towards the 3-movement promotion. I feel better about everything if I can get at least one or better yet two +3 or 4 Campuses up early. That way I know I'll have enough science to keep my momentum going. I also love it when I see an aggressive neighbor nearby because if you're ready for their attack you can easily kill their units and then take their cities.