Yes, it's too late for the pigs.
Only way to claim them was by settling Boston 2S of them (turn 40 range).
Maybe the rice cannot be stolen even if it's first ring, right. I'm not sure either.
What do you lose by settling 1 extra tile south, though ? The hill, that's it.
As it is, the 4th city would be yet another city that doesn't claim tiles.
Only New-York has claimed tiles, so far.
There's a limit to how sustainable tile can be. Sharing the corn with 3 cities ?
I don't have the game/map open, but if the rice is in Justinian's 2nd ring for both cities then it can definitely be stolen. The base culture output of the city matters very little for these culture wars. What matters is getting to the 20 extra culture per turn thresholds earlier than your opponent. 1st ring rice will be pumping in an extra 20 per turn at 10 culture and 40 per turn at 100. Justinian will only start pumping in extra culture once he reaches 100 in the respective cities which you can mirror with 100 of your own. You just need to make sure you pop your first borders some time before Justinian reaches 100.
The war against Egypt probably can't be turned off with only 3 War success.
A War Chariot has good odds to roll right over a flatland Archer guarding a city.
I'm happy SittinDown managed to kill 1 already.
Alphabet likely won't be gained until Horseback Riding.
Sharing wet corn with 3 cities?
If needed, the cities can borrow corn until size 3 and work 3 farms to then maintain themselves.
One can be chosen to work 2 farms and 2 scientists for the next bulb while the other 2 cities share the +6 corn as needed.
Trying to steal that wet rice feels awful risky if the longterm plan is to get everyone in the world at War with Egypt.
Plus, Genghis is plotting.
Hard to spare more than 1 chop for Granary right now to build a 90 Library.
Don't think Monument or religion spread is an option right now either.
**Edit**
I see in the last screenshot 10xp in the Great General bar, so maybe there is enough war success to Cease Fire now?
In a game like this, success mostly comes from experience and following your instincts.
3 cities are fine (for both HAs and Elepult).
Knowing what you should do to get there fast..more difficult.
Greed for new cities can lead to bad decisions, and so can fear of AI attacks.
They are bad at war, why..cos they are AIs, all we usually need are better units.
Success with deity comes from knowing that 3 cities can beat 10+ AI cities, and full focus on getting stuff like siege, Jumbos, HAs and so on
Looking at score, worry of attacks, being sad about losing that great resi are all things that can be harmful towards that goal.
Sure it's important realizing when you are in danger, but even while defending my main focus is always on getting unit or goal x.
Remember those 5 catapults "stacks" AIs like moving around? Yup, deity does not mean they are smarter now. You can always count on their stupidity.
Settled aggressively against the Rice to the South.
Ramses rolled up with 4 WC's and 2 Swords, and razed the city (but not before the city went into Cultural revolt for Byzantium). ....so, total fail on that one, and wasted a settler and archer, and a lot of war success.
I whipped some HA's and countered his War Chariots.
Bulbed Math, but Genghis finished it right before I bulbed, and I couldn't trade it to anybody.
Miracle.... Genghis and Ragnar DOW'ed Ramses. I my archers defended the hilltop cities well, though with enough losses from getting that city razed that Ramses won't cease fire with me. The remaining forces from Ramses went home for defense. I mopped up a couple of his units with HA's.
I traded HBR for a few techs, including Masonry and Sailing to Ragnar to get him to pleased. Begged Ragnar for Mysticism a few turns later. I should be able to beg Toko for Meditation soon, though I may have to put a turn into it - I didn't do the math yet.
Hoping to get to construction soon, and Elepult against Genghis while he's at war with Ramses.
Finished a Library & Granary in all 3 cities.
SpoilerScreenshots :
thinking of putting a turn into alpha so I can trade it to Justin for HBR. Most people have HBR now.
I'm going to get another GS in 4 turns, and without alpha -> COL, I don't have much useful to bulb, and my capital is so commerce poor, an academy seems like a waste.
Next steps:
Finish Construction ASAP. Go all-out to attack someone. Ideally someone already at war, whose forces are far from home. I sent my HA up to scout Mongolia to find out where I might attack. He does not have horses or ivory, so he's somewhat limited, and he can't quickly send reinforcements home.
I played around with growing cities vs running scientists, and saw I could finish Construction 2 turns earlier. But that's still around turn 95.
I'm even not sure if this game is more about "learning deep game mechanics" or about "training psihology"? (what you do when you already get some marginal situation and on top of that many things go... bad way too)
Settled aggressively against the Rice to the South.
Ramses rolled up with 4 WC's and 2 Swords, and razed the city (but not before the city went into Cultural revolt for Byzantium). ....so, total fail on that one, and wasted a settler and archer, and a lot of war success.
I whipped some HA's and countered his War Chariots.
Bulbed Math, but Genghis finished it right before I bulbed, and I couldn't trade it to anybody.
Miracle.... Genghis and Ragnar DOW'ed Ramses. I my archers defended the hilltop cities well, though with enough losses from getting that city razed that Ramses won't cease fire with me. The remaining forces from Ramses went home for defense. I mopped up a couple of his units with HA's.
I traded HBR for a few techs, including Masonry and Sailing to Ragnar to get him to pleased. Begged Ragnar for Mysticism a few turns later. I should be able to beg Toko for Meditation soon, though I may have to put a turn into it - I didn't do the math yet.
Hoping to get to construction soon, and Elepult against Genghis while he's at war with Ramses.
I'm going to get another GS in 4 turns, and without alpha -> COL, I don't have much useful to bulb, and my capital is so commerce poor, an academy seems like a waste.
Next steps:
Finish Construction ASAP. Go all-out to attack someone. Ideally someone already at war, whose forces are far from home. I sent my HA up to scout Mongolia to find out where I might attack. He does not have horses or ivory, so he's somewhat limited, and he can't quickly send reinforcements home.
I played around with growing cities vs running scientists, and saw I could finish Construction 2 turns earlier. But that's still around turn 95.
Genghis and Ragnar DOW'ing Egypt is tremendous news!
Now you have time to get to Catapults and War Elephants.
The best target in my opinion is Genghis.
He has 2 fat cities near you on flatland that both have corn, both have floodplains, and one has Gold.
Somewhere, he has the Iron you need, and at only 6 cities, he is much weaker than 8 city Protective Toku due to the tundra I can see up north.
It will be quite challenging even with War Elephants and Catapults because you have no metal units that can take advantage of defensive terrain, and Genghis has high unit courage.
Combat II Swords and Combat II Spears will likely fling themselves at your Elepult stack while you slowly bombard down his walls.
The good news is that you are Charismatic, so you get promotions at 2xp, 4xp, and 8xp instead of 2/5/10 like everyone else.
Genghis is also Imperialistic, so if you capture a city there is a decent chance you'll get a settled Great General once Genghis has some battles with Egypt.
Keep scouting Genghis with that Horse Archer until you see all 6 of his cities.
Maybe a few are lightly defended by Axes you can squish with a handful of Chariots at the start of the war.
=====
Begging Toku isn't likely to work.
Since you already begged 100 from him, that gets subtracted off all future begging amounts.
So instead of 125, it is really only 25 that you can beg.
That is, unless you double your army size and increase your power ratio with him up to 0.5, then you can beg a larger amount.
Your next big beg is going to come from Justinian since you've known him from Turn 5 and haven't begged him yet.
Once Angora pops borders, you should be touching 8 of his land tiles and then you can beg triple!
The begging amount gets truly large once your power ratio increases higher than 0.27.
Of course, you have to adopt Buddhism to get Pleased with Justinian before you can beg without diplo penalties.
Currently, I'd estimate you can get 150 or 110 from a Pleased Justinian if you are a Land Target.
Going Buddhism means becoming Friendly with Justinian and Ragnar in the far future, but in the short term it will get you a Cautious Toku and an Annoyed Hannibal, both very dangerous situations.
Hmm. How much +diplo do you have with Tokugawa right now?
Is it +6 yet?
If so, going Buddhism might be ok since different religions only goes up to -2 with Toku. I think +4 should still be Pleased.
Toku is much more dangerous than Hannibal since he is closer and you can likely bribe Toku to DOW or Trade Embargo Hannibal (close open borders and hurt diplo) as long as Toku is still Pleased with you.
In the future, Justinian will likely complete Buddhist AP since he is first to Theology, and that means holy wars if Buddhist civs are fighting non-Buddhist civs, and 10 turn Peace Treaties halting wars among Buddhist members.
====
Putting a turn into Alphabet and then trading Horseback Riding won't work.
You need to tech around 33% of Alphabet before Deity AI will trade it for Horseback Riding.
By the time you do so, Justinian will likely already get Horseback Riding in trade from another AI.
Your strongest trading play is probably to trade Horseback Riding to Justinian for Polytheism.
That gets you a tech for sure and +diplo which might get Justinian to Pleased without a religion switch.
A Pleased Justinian can't start plotting war against you.
Next turn you might be able to trade Polytheism to Toku for Priesthood, but it's iffy.
Might have to put 15 into Meditation before you can trade Polytheism for it.
Ultimately, you need to tech Code of Laws before you can bulb Philosophy and get back into the tech game.
Alphabet will have to be acquired using Construction.
Getting Alphabet opens up the Compass bulb, but Compass is less than half as good as Philosophy.
Saving up for a 3rd Great Scientist with only 3 cities is too costly with Elepult coming, so Compass bulb is probably a bad idea.
In the mid term, Toku + Genghis + Ragnar will all stop trading with you once you've traded 8 or 9 techs and start saying "We Fear You've Become too Advanced"
Teching Hunting and Archery yourself has delayed this, but it is worth remembering for the future.
Your future tech trading partners will be Hannibal, Justinian, and Ragnar once you get him to Friendly with Shared war, Buddhism, and Hereditary Rule.
=========
You need to whip away 20 population in 2 pop whips to get enough War Elephants and Catapults to matter against Deity Genghis.
I'd stop working Scientists and start working food to build up city size and just get the Great Scientist later.
Need 5 Catapults and probably 6 War Elephants to carry out a war without bad losses.
Don't be surprised or discouraged if Genghis techs Feudalism and gets Longbows before you attack.
Warmonger civs love getting the military techs. Good luck on whatever you decide to do!
In the mid term, Toku + Genghis + Ragnar will all stop trading with you once you've traded 8 or 9 techs and start saying "We Fear You've Become too Advanced"
Teching Hunting and Archery yourself has delayed this, but it is worth remembering for the future.
found all of Ghengis's cities. Iron is close to his capital. He settled on one of the Bronze's. Doesn't have Horses or Ivory.
all on flat land (or most anyway).
all have walls.
Trades:
Traded HBR to Justinian for Meditation and Polytheism.
Got Priesthood for Polytheism from Toku.
Traded Polytheism to Ragnar for 50 gold.
Traded Rice to Ragnar for 3 gpt.
Other:
Turned my #2 GS into an Academy. Bulbing Alpha seemed dumb, since everyone has it, and having the GS hang around 18+ turns for me to tech Alpha and CoL seemed dumb for the Philo bulb. Thoughts?
Grew cities as much as possible. will be 7 / 6 / 6 next turn.
Did not change religions yet. I was only +4 for Toku, and I was leery of angering him, and I didn't want to lose a turn to elepults to anarchy.
...not sure what to tech next.
SpoilerScreenshots :
Longbows are not far off now. Everyone has monarchy.
Should I try to tech Aesthetics for bait, or is that dumb since Toku already has it?
Turned my #2 GS into an Academy. Bulbing Alpha seemed dumb, since everyone has it, and having the GS hang around 18+ turns for me to tech Alpha and CoL seemed dumb for the Philo bulb. Thoughts?
Seems bad. Academy is a long term plan and that is not a worry here. I would trade Construction ASAP (hopefully getting Alpha) for whatver AI's give since they will have it in next 10 turns or so. After that you are like one tch away from Philo bulb....
found all of Ghengis's cities. Iron is close to his capital. He settled on one of the Bronze's. Doesn't have Horses or Ivory.
all on flat land (or most anyway).
all have walls.
Trades:
Traded HBR to Justinian for Meditation and Polytheism.
Got Priesthood for Polytheism from Toku.
Traded Polytheism to Ragnar for 50 gold.
Traded Rice to Ragnar for 3 gpt.
Other:
Turned my #2 GS into an Academy. Bulbing Alpha seemed dumb, since everyone has it, and having the GS hang around 18+ turns for me to tech Alpha and CoL seemed dumb for the Philo bulb. Thoughts?
Grew cities as much as possible. will be 7 / 6 / 6 next turn.
Did not change religions yet. I was only +4 for Toku, and I was leery of angering him, and I didn't want to lose a turn to elepults to anarchy.
Ok, now that you have Construction, it is time to cash in and get ready for war unless you are planning a supremely difficult peaceful game.
First I'd tech 100% on Monarchy for 1 turn and trade Construction to Hannibal for Monarchy.
Construction costs 591 and Monarchy is 507
The Deity AI tends to see your techs at roughly 78% value, so your Construction is only worth about 460 in their eyes.
The value is a bit higher if it is a monopoly tech, but everyone has Monarchy so it shouldn't be a problem.
Putting 60 into Monarchy should get it down to 450 which should open up the trade for Construction, but I'd do 100% slider for 1 turn just to be safe.
Tokugawa is now in the top half of the scoreboard and is saying "We Fear You are Becoming too Advanced", so it is no longer really possible to trade techs with him. Can you bribe Tokugawa to DOW Hannibal, Egypt, or Genghis(best choice) with Construction?
Justinian will have Construction in 3 turns according to , so probably trade it to him soon for
Alphabet is no longer really important to get since everyone has it and you don't need Spies or build
Monarchy is more important.
After the trades, next best tech to research is Code of Laws.
It unlocks Caste which means you can run 4 Scientists in the capital and bulb Philo in good time if Slavery isn't needed.
=========
For war, Monarchy and Hereditary Rule will be a big help.
Cities that whip 50 Catapults can put the 10 overflow into Archers.
The Archers will help protect the hilltop cities from counter attack and give +1 with Hereditary Rule.
The main problem will be Genghis suiciding Catapults against your invasion stack, and then attacking with 8.8 Combat II Spearmen against Horse units.
In that situation, the 5 Catapults would actually face the 4.8 Spears, so you'd have slightly better than even odds thankfully.
Iron costs +40 per turn in a trade, so there is no way you can afford it right now with 100% slider.
Hmmm
If you had a 4th or 5th city, I'd recommend a Stable for 5xp Elephants, but there just isn't enough resources to justify Stable right now.
All you can do now is whip so much that you cry. (And chop those final forests around the Capital!!!)
5 Catapults + 4 to 5 War Elephants to go with your 2 Horse Archers and Chariot.
That's 3 2-pop whips in each city.
The Archers produced from Catapult overflows should keep your cities from becoming too unhappy.
50% Walled cities will be bombarded down 4% by each catapult until you can get 4xp Catapults and promote with City Raider I + Accuracy.
Accuracy Catapults can bombard down 50% walled cities 8% each turn.
Spend two turn bombarding Walls to 10%, then attack with all 5 catapults to badly injure 5 units and the rest will all be 50% hp.
Then 4 War Elephants will face at most 5 units and get easy kills, and then the Horse Archers will also get easy kills.
Expect to lose 3 Catapults against each city and have to produce 3 more Catapults to take the next city.
Once you take the 1st city, make one of the units a Medic so you can heal up twice as fast.
Preferably the Chariot, since it is so weak, it dies last when your stack gets attacked.
Great General should probably be used to make a Super Medic.
=======
Good luck if you decide to go to war with Genghis.
Remember if you attack Genghis, it will be -1 diplo with all civs that are Pleased with him.
Also, if he counter-attacks your cities with Catapults + units, you will lose that city fast unless you whip a Wall.
Against Walled cities, Genghis will slowly bombard the city down from 50% if he has a stack with a Catapult in it, so that would give you more time to make Archers.
Making a real army and attacking Egypt with Eelepult is also theoretically possible, but it is kind of far away and the rewards are unknown.
Genghis seems to have an awful lot of units ?
What's the diplo glance between those AIs ? Any chance attacking Ragnar would be better/easier ?
I hope Genghis doesn't have a stack in Egyptian lands that he'll pull back after he loses a 1st city.
Do we know where Egypt is ? I assume it's south but...
Kaitzilla said:
The Deity AI tends to see your techs at roughly 78% value[
DOW'ed Mongolia. Had bombarded down Turfan to 8%, but then AP forced me to make peace.
I decided to take my stack down to Egypt, and captured Memphis, grabbing the temple of Solomon (+9 gpt), and a settled GP, so (+14 GPT total).
Wasn't into tech much, so trades were minimal. I spread Construction around a bit, to get Monarchy and Monotheism. I waited until I whipped down my cities to about 4 before I switched. Slow teched Alpha and Code of Laws.
I didn't get Philo first.... is it worth more anarchy to switch to Caste for the extra scientists?
DOW'ed Mongolia. Had bombarded down Turfan to 8%, but then AP forced me to make peace.
I decided to take my stack down to Egypt, and captured Memphis, grabbing the temple of Solomon (+9 gpt), and a settled GP, so (+14 GPT total).
Wasn't into tech much, so trades were minimal. I spread Construction around a bit, to get Monarchy and Monotheism. I waited until I whipped down my cities to about 4 before I switched. Slow teched Alpha and Code of Laws.
I didn't get Philo first.... is it worth more anarchy to switch to Caste for the extra scientists?
Heh, stupid AP.
Most people think it screws up wars every 10 turns, but it is worse than that.
The Cease Fire has be signed the turn before the vote, because once the vote comes up and you sign Cease Fire the same turn, the 10 turn Peace Treaty takes effect next turn anyway.
Worse, when you planning to DOW after the vote, frequently there is nothing to vote on, so the vote turns up next turn, again, and again, and again, and then the election!
So that is like 5 turns out of 15 you get screwed, with a vote to Stop the War you just started last turn, instead of 1 out of 10 turns.
When fighting AP civs, all you can do is DOW the AP civ, and burn down the city with the AP!
Or, plan your wars around the AP.
On the other hand, holy wars are amazing.
As long as 1 full member of the AP religion is at war with a non-AP religion Civ, and there is a 2nd full member of the AP religion, you can vote for Holy War.
That causes all AP religion civs to DOW the heathen!!!
You should be able to gang up with Genghis, Ragnar, and Justinian to bully all the heathens one by one once you adopt Buddhism.
=========
Nice work grabbing fat, fat Memphis.
Archer and Chariot will hopefully? halt the War Chariot counter-attack, and with super medic healing fast should be able to get the rest of Egypt's cities with that fat army.
Actually, War Chariots stomp Super Medic Chariots and Flatland Archers flat.
Is Memphis on a hill? It might be prudent to sign a CEASE FIRE with Egypt, heal up for a few turns, then DOW Egypt again, if Egypt will talk.
Don't sign a 10 turn Peace Treaty.
There shouldn't be any -diplo problems with a new Egypt DOW in 3 turns since everyone hates Egypt.
Healing is 5% healing in enemy territory, 10% in neutral, 15% in friendly territory normally.
With super medic giving +25%, it is +30% enemy territory, +35% neutral, +40% friendly.
So 3 turns of healing in neutral territory can heal up the most injured units to full instead of 10 turns with no medic.
That is great on Normal speed, and a big reason to make as sure as possible the Super Medic never dies.
I'd definitely do Caste and get Philo as fast as possible.
That will let you work Artists in Memphis and get Iron as fast as possible too with the border pop.
Pacifism is nice too.
Even more Great People.
Feudalism would also be nice to get in trade because +2 xp units and Longbows will be amazing for your civ.
Engineering and Castles are also very nice.
Hilltop Longbows with +100% defense castles are pretty much invincible against Tokugawa/Mongolian invasion stacks.
Beat up Egypt gogo!
Get that capital.
==========
You share war against Egypt with Genghis, so you can sign Open Borders with him right now even though he hates your guts.
You can also ask Genghis and Ragnar to attack certain Egypt cities if you talk to them, but I'm not sure how well it works.
They always say they'll get right on it.
Mongolia has vassal-ed Ramses and I only got Memphis out of the deal.
I forgot to Open Borders with Ghengis before Ramses became a vassal, so now I can't open borders.
I begged Justin for a bunch of gold.
I switched to Caste System, and bubled Philo.
I'm 2nd to philosophy - Justin hasn't started trading it yet.
Scouted Ragnar a bit.
Ragnar just started war prep. I don't see anyone else he'd rather attack than me, so I probably need to switch to Buddism to get him to friendly.
I got Iron.
I can trade Ivory to Carthage, but I'm pretty sure that's a bad idea. He's willing to do 5 GPT and a Corn, and I'm having health issues. Based on the diplomacy situation, and that everyone has longbows soon, and pikes are coming, I'm not sure how much longer elepult will be useful.
Thinking of switching to Buerau and Pacifism in 2 turns. Not a great bureau cap at all though.
Thinking that Japan is the next best target if I go Buddism. Won't get AP'ed into peace, and maybe can get some other AI's to join in?
Spoilerscreenshots :
Doing the monestary for cheap culture and the +2 H because of AP. As soon as that's done, I'm going to run an artist there. Fortunately, the city has +5 CPT already from being Jewish holy city.
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corn as needed.
Library.
from him, that gets subtracted off all future begging amounts.
from a Pleased Justinian if you are a Land Target.
, so probably trade it to him soon for 
Combat II Spearmen against Horse units.
