Deity level gameplay

[Scrajm]

Hello dear community!

This is my first post so I would just want to start with saying hello to everyone.
Warning: this might get long.

Now back to topic: In vanilla I played in deity, and even though i struggled, I usually came out on top. My fav strats was either the GL+NC opening with France, stay on 2 cities going tall and go for a musketeer timing push. My other strats, and this is what won me most of the games, play Hiawatha, which I considered the strongest civ. What I usually did was that I went for a 6-8 UU swordsman on 1 city as a timing push. Since UU swordsmen doesn't require and iron, this is "map independent", and you dont need to be afraid of not having iron around. Then I went for NC afterwards (still on 1 city), puppeting around 3-6 cities with the swordsmen and settling one of my own city after the NC is done (puppeted cities doesn't need library for NC). The theory crafting with having only 2 cities is that you don't get the culture hit, and then you are using these two cities for production of wonders and units. Hiawatha's UB helps ALOT with having mega production cities, especially if you have forest. All the puppeted states gives the money and research so you can keep up with the AI´s insane tech speed, as well as giving you culture without increasing the thresholds, which means you can be ahead of the AI in culture as well, or at least not that far behind. Build some seige units and hold some aggression from the other AIs, take more cities with the now upg. long swordsmen, get porcelain and sign RA, and suddenly your so far ahead its usually GG.

Now enough about that: now about G&K. Nothing I've tried work for me anymore. First of all you cant reach ironworking so quick anymore, which makes the timing push WAAAAAY later. So I changed from 6-7 UU swordsmen and went for like 10-11 instead to compensate for the later timing push.

But since taking cities is SO much more difficult now early game, and together with the timing push being so late so the AI already has both siege units and comp.arch in their cities it gets close to impossible to take cities anymore without siege units. And if I wait for seige units aswell the attack is gonna be so late I dont even need to bother.
The AI usually has both swordsmen, seige units, comp.bowman and pikemen when my attack land.

And what about the GL+NC opening? Well the AI gets the GL like at turn 28 as earliest, and usually in my 4-5 tries, they get it at around turn 30. I just cant tech that fast. My fastest is getting it at turn 31-32, which just isn't fast enough.

And about religion. I just cant get any pantheon at deity. I am rushing as much as I can, yet to no avail. I had to step down to immortal to be able to try out the new religion mechanics. But immortal is too easy, I wanna be able to play with the religion mechanics at deity aswell.

So what I would like to ask the community is this:

1. Is it possible to play with religion on deity?
2. Is it possible to do the GL+NC opening anymore?
3. And the most important question: is swordsmen timing pushes possible?

I would like as much help as I can get, but please take into consideration that stuff that only works on immortal or below isnt really gonna help me. I tried both these strats on immortal and it worked like a charm, its just that deity.. is.. just.. too.. difficult for these stats. My idea is that with some theory crafting from the community I might get to see things from a different angle. I know there are alot of expert level deity players out there!

 

[peddroelm]

1. Deity - religion

pantheon is doable most of the times even with non-faith bonused civs (tech pottery - build shrine as soon as its researched) ... Finding a religious CS helps a ton ..The more you delay the higher the faith cost (10 15 20 25 ...45) ...

establishing a religion on the other hand takes even more commitment (cash on a religious CS might be unavoidable) and luck even with faith bonused civs

My advice - unless you know what you are doing - ignore religion(faith generation) for the starting stages - even if you luck out and manage to found a religion - your cities will soon be converted to an AI religion anyway ...Do not ignore faith generation completely - depending on what AI religion pick for you - there might be some faith spending opportunities (pagodas, monasteries , ..)

2. GL is a huge (rigged) gamble on deity ...
You'll want to settle capital near mountain (observatory is kind of important)
Science wise ... It will be hard to keep up with the AIs ...
Get NC early ...Education is bigger than ever (perhaps save some cash to rush buy the university) ... Generate and plant GS asap...
Enter Renascence trough Astronomy (almighty observatory) - ideally gifted spy tech steal ...
Tech cheap techs and use the spy - steal to power yourself to Industrial via Scientific theory ..(you get an extra spy then)
From there 2 more tech steals put you into modern (electricity and radio) - no military units but you get third spy ... On deity spies are your best teching ability

DOF are pretty stable and if money is enough - you can chance some RA .. they are not great(especially without rationalism) but - they'll help ...

Don't waste any on CS - AIs will quickly negate your investments with endless spy coups ...

Tradition opening tree is a strong opening option (you're probably not going to have a lot of room to expand anyway..)

Honor policy tree seems pretty solid fallow up ... the great general citadel(s0 are great for defense and the extra gold/kill is significant ...

Rationalism - if you feel the diplo situation is stable enough to invest in RAs ..(Declarations Of Friendships seem more stable in G&K - and you can keep DOFs with mortal enemies most of the time)

Commerce is very nice with buy discount ...The trade post buff requires mass puppet empire you might not be able to conquer ...

3. Investing heavily in early aggression (you need to research & build siege machines & meat shields) is a double edged sword ... If you manage to capture a city with university intact before you tech Education (jackpot) ...

 

[Securion]

Ottomans and Small Continents gave me a very easy Deity conquest win. My navy was so large it was insane. I had 50+ naval vessels and 2-3 land units (Paratroopers) at the end.
Gold specialist economy, Honor, Commerce and Freedom trees, settle all merchants.
Dont bother with CSs, you just cant keep them for more than a turn or two.

 

[Scrajm]

Well allright. I usually play continents, standard size with 1-2 extra civs and 1-2 extra CS so it gets a little bit more .. tight. I want land massive wars. Water maps are, eh..

But using spies is definitively a good idea, teching only cheap tech and stealing the tough ones. But have you actually managed to get GL in k&g? Cus i havent. It goes pre turn 30. And regarding religion, I´ve done partly as you suggested several times about getting shrine ASAP, and I never even get to the first stage (found a pantheon). Perhaps just bad luck then? Getting religion CS might do the trick, didn't think of that actually. But if it is as you say, that you wont be getting that much out of it, perhaps one should refrain from religion in deity then?

But reading your post peddroelm makes me think you don't believe early aggression is viable any more? It just seems way harder than in vanilla, since it comes so much later. I´m still looking for a stable and viable strat, independent of luck. Anyone got anyone I could try out?

 

[MadDjinn]

You're not supposed to get the GL on Deity. If you're rerolling constantly to get it, you should learn to forget it and try for something else.

best bet is to go 3 city (with libraries if possible) while teching Construction/IW/Math.

that gives a decent set of units to attack a few neighbours.

Going NC is only for the mid game rushes.

 

[peddroelm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMLtiL3kS1w

MadDjinn large islands LP (deity Carthage) .. .. Not exactly what you asked for (pangea, continents) but still high quality stuff ... Bonus points the religion situation at the start ...

 

[gozpel]

Watched part 1, I must say it takes balls to play a map like that on Deity.

But every choice was determined by the start and I can only wait for part 2!

I would settle NE of that NW-mountain and fill in with a city by the mountain E of cap, but I'm not playing this game, so maybe I just shut up.

 

[MadDjinn]

Watched part 1, I must say it takes balls to play a map like that on Deity.

But every choice was determined by the start and I can only wait for part 2!

I would settle NE of that NW-mountain and fill in with a city by the mountain E of cap, but I'm not playing this game, so maybe I just shut up.

you can if you want

I attached the initial save to the thread in the stories and tales section.

 

[Scrajm]

I made some adjustments to the early Hiawatha BO, and suddenly the strat is viable again. Natural order is back to normal. The AI is getting kicked in his binary balls.

EDIT: Oh and btw MadDjinn, your awesome.

 

[theemaster]

Let me add one other strategy to getting a "pantheon" early game.. I founded a city and I was unable to get a shrine and pantheon in time..

So I rushed a settler as fast as I could my first turn.. and I was already going to deploy a city to this location but it had a natural wonder worth 2 food, 6 spirit which was in the vicinity as in 1 square from my target spot.. and I managed to squeak out a 35 pantheon religion by turn 32-33, Even though it took lots of turns to build settler and get him to a far location... the +6 really nailed it.

I guess, I should be clear I got it that fast cause.. I also got a population boost from a ruin..

 

[CatDawg]

Scrajm, what were the adjustments that you made to your strat with Hiawatha that made it viable again? I'm interested in putting it to the test. The more detail the better! Thanks

 

[Scrajm]

Sure CatDawg!

You ofc have to to some adjustments depending on some factors, like your close 6 tiles and size of map (how many scouts do I need?).

But as Hiawatha, you are most likely gonna spawn in forest, which means you usually have deer, and pretty often you have wheat aswell. My adjustment was that in vanilla I could go for both pottery + trapping before I started going for ironworking. In G&K you have to sacrifice even more economy in order to make the rush viable. Ive order decided that going for religion is to much of a luck factor, so im usually skipping it now adays. So the new BO is:

For the city:

Scout
Monument
Granary
Scout
And then 5-7 warriors (depending on how many you get)
upg. them to swordsmen (no iron needed!) And then start rushing
Worker OR warrior (depending on if you have enough)
Archer
Archer
Library
Archer
NC
Oracle
Terracotta army (most of the times at least)
Settler
Seige unit
Seige unit
Use Great Engineer for Notre Dam
From here it varies..

For tech:
Pottery
Mining
Bronze
Iron
Archery
Calender
Writing
Philosophy
Animal Husb
Trapping
Masonry
Construction (you REALLY need them lumber mills)
Wheel
Math
engineering
Metal casting (hiawathas UB is there, its sooooo good)
Physics (upg to trebs)
Currency
Guilds (start spamming trade stations around the pupp cities)
Steel (dont bother upg. to longswordsmen, its better to sell of all the iron except 1)
Gunpowder (yes, NOW upg.)
Chemistry (its all about the war, so upg into cannons now)
... here it depends and hence, varies..

For social:

Open Tradition
Open Liberty
Free worker
Republic
Representation
Free settler (DONT SETTLE UNTIL NC IS DONE!!1111)
Meritocracy (choose great engineer for the notre dam)

From here i haven't decided the best course yet for G&K, im still experimenting.

Stuff to think about:

Always puppet all cities you capture. You don't want the culture hit. Make exceptions only for exceptional production cities.
You are only supposed to settle two cities of your own, so always go for forest areas with deer. Forest = hammers for Hiawatha.
This is a war economy, so pillage all farms and steal all workers. You need the gold.
You cannot loose too many units. Attacking cities requires complete battlefield control.
Use other AIs to attack the AIs you wanna take down. They are usually fairly cheep!
GLHF

 

[CatDawg]

Thanks Scrajm. Great summary.

I can see upgrading to mohawk warriors ASAP is key to the strat and allows you to puppet cities before the AI is well defended. In your BO, what are you chopping or rush buying to upgrade the warriors ASAP? Or are you relying on gold via goody huts and/or diplomacy?

Do you find yourself struggling for gold until Currency/Guilds is researched?

And your worker is a little lower down your BO than mine. It seems you won't get your free worker via the Liberty tree until several turns in, even if your scout finds culture via a goody hut. Don't you need a worker early in order to develop lux so you have enough gold to upgrade your warriors?

 

[Scrajm]

Tried it a couple of more times now, trying to squeeze in different stuff in between and skipping the archers, in order to get the macro going a little bit better, but i always fail. You really really need those archers.

Anyway, gold is never a problem early game. With 2 scouts you get what you need. I usually have enough gold to both upg. all and get a CS going if i manage to kill enough barbs before I upg. the warriors (don't have them standing in the start city, go out and kill barbs and get some influence and money, just make sure you have enough time to get them home and healed). The key is that with this BO, the worker will be out in time to get some lux BEFORE the war starts. Even if you only get 1 lux, its enough. Sell the lux to the AI your gonna attack. Then when you declare war, you can sell it again to some1 else. That's 480 gold ALONE, which is enough for 6 warriors (6*80=480). Killing 2 barb camps is another 100. Sell 5-6 embassies is like 120 gold minimum. Find 7-9 city states is another 200. And then you accumulated about 100 gold from the capital when the attack starts around turn 50.

So 480+100+120+200+100 = 1000 gold. Which pretty much is what you should have about turn 50. If you have 2 lux in main city you get another 480 if you double sell it. You need 640 if you're going for 8 warriors, which sometimes are needed if your fighting an AI which is prepared. With the extra money I usually try to get me a CS, but I'm thinking of changing a bit. Perhaps settling second city (going a bit earlier for the free settler) and buying the library is a better idea, since CS is so hard to come by with money in G&K, especially if you didn't get any influence by killing barbs.

And I am never chopping any forest. There is no need to, you will have 7-8 warriors by the time you hit iron working. And besides, the forests are what is gonna get your military production out of hand later in the game when you get all the lumber mills up together with UB which gives an extra hammer on each lumber mill. Even later you get scientific theory which provides an extra hammer on each forest. So I try to refrain from forest chopping, as it hurts macro later in the game. Forests are just to valuable. Standard forest late game give 1 food 4 hammers. Deer gives 3 food 3 hammers 1 gold (with no rivers).

 

[CatDawg]

So do you find rushing with 7-8 mohawk warriors and 2 archers is enough in G&K? Since catapults are further down your BO, are you capturing your first AI city without catapults?

And are you using the heal instantly promotion to keep the momentum of the attack going? Or do you find there is time to rotate warriors to the rear and heal via a medic promotion so your units build up veterancy?

As for gold, I can see there are more opportunities to gain gold early from a map with more civs & CSs via finding CSs, embassies, etc. And you mentioned earlier that you like to play with these map settings:

Well allright. I usually play continents, standard size with 1-2 extra civs and 1-2 extra CS so it gets a little bit more .. tight. I want land massive wars. Water maps are, eh..

I assume from 2 barb camps = 100 gold that you're playing marathon speed?

 

[Scrajm]

No, I actually play on standard speed. I just forgot that you only get 25 gold from a barb camp, don't understand what I got 50 from. Never played on slower than standard tbh.

I usually take the first city with only 7-8 mohawaks, I don't find time to wait for the archers. They come in handy taking the second city, which usually has walls and catapults by now. And yes, I use all my upg. for 50hp. In vanilla you could rotate, but not in G&K (hard lesson learned, this is one of the things I had to change). The siege units arrives around when you are ready to take down the 2nd AI, or take the rest of the cities from the first AI if you didn't capture them all.

And I've found that I like most when I have 2 extra civs, and 3-5 more CS (on standard size map).

But I'm still experimenting on everything. I'm not as ahead as I used to be in vanilla. I loose more units now early game which has to be compensated by creating new ones, which hurts the macro. I'm also having a harder time in general keeping up in terms of tech mid game. I haven't found any good solutions to this yet. RAs doesn't seem to do it anymore as they used to. Spying doesn't give me techs fast enough.

 

[Aspon]

I made a post about how to beat the deity with the iraqoi read it its called deity beater dont attack early just mass expand and mass produce troops. generally if you can find ancient ruins that give u faith boost you can get the ability of +2 science prer trade route the forest will give u the trade routes when you have the wheel and five early cities gives +8 science. keep doing and youll e changing the warrior to Mohawks much quicker then you think. Liberty is a good first track for this strategy for many settlers. just build all the cities close together, and get the happiness boost from trade routes. this strategy
1. Boosts happiness
2.boosts science
3. allows for you fast troop movements in borders which is useful for detering a war or rapid defense.
4. when you complete it gives you a free enginer which will give you probably the only world wonder you yourself will build. if its still available go for the oracle as the free social policy is huge. I like to explore tradition next only for the sake of the garrisoned unit boost, increasing city attack. can be helpful maybe Honor is a better route debatable but since your mostly in forest you need help with growth anyway.

 

[peddroelm]

- had a 3 city peaceful deity continents game with Carthage ... Managed to keep myself in the tech race quite honorably (above medium) from renaissance to finish ..

- did not manage to establish religion ... my capital kept my Parthenon for about 250 turns until it finally got converted to Darius religion (+production per follower and faith from desert tiles ...) - shame there is no way to willingly convert to another player's religion ...

- I did NOT have a mountain near the capital (no observatory - no porcelain tower) ... Started with liberty (settled GS) Went rationalism to test the new mechanics ... Settled a ton of GS in the capital (had ~8? settled by the end) ... Was nearing 1k bpt by the end... Also signed a few RAs ... Peaceful scientific victory is definitively possible on deity (perhaps even easier than on vanilla) ... Purchased with cash University//Public School//Research lab as soon as they were available ..(AI have a hard time conquering each other cities - less chances of a runaway civ, friendly relations are easier to maintain throughout the ages...)
EDIT- RAs & GS bulbs can still 1 shot late game techs - you just need to build a solid bpt first ... And of course finish with Oxford & Rationalism finisher that work as before


- game ended ~T 290 - Darius got diplomatic victory (most AI' including Darius voted for me but somehow between the billion coups per turn he managed to get most CS ) (he was also 1 space-part away from winning a science victory) ...Had I been more accustomed with the new mechanics I probably had a good chance to snatch a science victory ...

 

[Aspon]

you can purchase great sceintists with faith thinking it may be a good long term strat but noticed the cost of them goes up fast.

 

[Scrajm]

Aspon: Any chance of you giving an URL? My rush commence @ turn 50. Is it really possible to have the same amount of troops at that turn? That would be very interesting, cus if it as you say that means one doesn't have to sacrifice any macro for units. Sounds a little bit too good to be true!

peddroelm: peace are for pus.. i mean not for me I find it kinda dull. I like microing around my units. Not having to deal with runaway AIs seems kinda nice though. Find that game mechanic a tad bit annoying.