[BNW] Deity Random map Continents

[beetle]

I am trying this and will post my T64 screen shot. As I wrote before, I hate being tricked by the map generator; so abusing map knowledge to send Settler due south to settle on the coast.

Nothing fancy, just 4 city Tradition aiming for SV, and my usual Scout-Scout-Shrine opener. I am not seeing any good dirt for a faith pantheon, but running God King for 100 turns is okay.

Based on the screenshot, it's possible you're not truly isolated; there's a bit of land in the NE corner. You might want to prioritize fishing so you can find out.

Nice scrying of the map! I think you are correct — our starting continent is more like a South America, and not an Australia.

 

[dwcole78]

So interesting didn't know the tech cost was only discounted when you had met other civs that had researched it not just that they had developed it. Found some other civs and here are pics of the current game. Plans now are to go to war with Polynesia to get him off the continent to my south. I actually have a defense alliance with Aski of all people so think I am ok from being attacked for a bit. Will be interesting to see how this developed. Sure yes the idea here is for me to learn! I also may have various things to unlearn. The tech path the Korea tech slingshot was taught to me by meinteam who I think is generally a good player. I could certainly be wrong though. Where I won on immortal was with an island start as Korea. Tech wise I am only about one or two techs behind even the leaders at this point I think - aka They just entered the Rennisance and I just entered Medival and unlike the AI I am cleaning up really most of the techs in an age. We will see how it goes but I expect it will be fun and challenging.

 

[GenuineRisk]

I just played this map last night out of curiosity. Zero DoWs, and easy to keep a couple of friends to the end of the game. The map is not horrible - one advantage of Continents maps is that often it cramps the AI from expanding out of control and slows them down, but it does slow you down too. With 3 cities and pretty mediocre play, I got a T262 SV, slightly delayed because of gold/culture bottleneck at the end. One AI barely entered the Atomic era by the time I launched. It took a long time to meet a second AI, and gold was non-existent in the early game.

With a disclaimer that I am just an average player, here are some screenshots at various turns for benchmarking:

T64: (expos settled, granaries built, libraries next, starting Philosophy, 16 BPT)

Spoiler :

T100: (between NC and education, 57 BPT)

Spoiler :

T145: (soon before Scientific Theory, 279 BPT, just about to get into tech lead)

Spoiler :

T201: (research labs being built, 541 BPT)

Spoiler :

T241: (wrapping up spaceship techs, hitting the bottleneck, 917 BPT)

Spoiler :

T262: (winning, 1075 BPT)

Spoiler :

Tech wise I am only about one or two techs behind even the leaders at this point I think - aka They just entered the Rennisance and I just entered Medival and unlike the AI I am cleaning up really most of the techs in an age.

That means you are an entire era behind, not 1-2 techs behind. For comparison, on T145, I was close to entering the Industrial Era. At your tech rate, you will probably never get within striking distance of the tech leaders. You are not supposed to get every tech in an era - you are supposed to only get what you need for your intended VC. The only legitimate type of game I can think of getting every tech in an era is on a Sacred Sites/religious type game where you are trying to stay in earlier eras as long as possible to take advantage of cheaper faith purchases, which is a pretty advanced type of game on Deity.

 

[dr_s]

Wow, thanks for posting those screenshots, it really shows the holes in my game, and the importance of population (I think).

To compare, at turn 64, you're at pop 13 and 16 BPT, at turn 100, you're at pop 26 and 57 BPT, and at turn 145 you're at pop 42 and 279 BPT. In my game, I'm at pop 9 and 14 BPT at turn 64, at pop 15 and 36 BPT at turn 101, and 34 and 113 BPT at turn 145. So you're more than double my BPT at turn 145.

I guess I don't understand how to grow so fast. The spot you put Seoul doesn't look like it's such high food, yet your capital is at pop 20 at turn 145 and mine is only at pop 13 ... that's a huge difference. Did you just relentlessly focus on growth, due to the lack of military threat on this map, or ... ?

 

[mbbcam]

Obviously I have no idea what GenuineRisk did, and I'm sure s/he will enlighten us, but Food Caravans and Cargo Ships are worth considering for growth.

 

[dr_s]

That's the thing ... I used food caravans (I had a non-coastal capital). It's true I diverted two to the CS when I got trade route quests, but otherwise I tried to prioritize them. So I have to think there's something else going on. I would love to see the cities themselves and what buildings are built or how many specialists are worked, at different dates.

 

[GenuineRisk]

I guess I don't understand how to grow so fast. The spot you put Seoul doesn't look like it's such high food, yet your capital is at pop 20 at turn 145 and mine is only at pop 13 ... that's a huge difference. Did you just relentlessly focus on growth, due to the lack of military threat on this map, or ... ?

Yes, you are right that Seoul was not in an amazing location for food, and the expos were pretty bad, too. I fed Seoul with a Cargo Ship and Caravan. I originally intended to settle on the Ivory for gold + Observatory, but seeing that it was only 1 tile from the coast, and not in an amazing food location, I moved to the coast for Cargo Ships. My finish time would've been better if I paid more attention and got Sailing earlier than I did. I should've built a Trireme and taken Optics sooner, too, among other early-game decisions.

A few tips that might help (basically, your suspicions of focusing on growth are right):

- Buy growth tiles in the early game. Seoul didn't have a single 2-food tile at the beginning, so I used CS meeting gold and ruins to buy the wheat ASAP. Normally I wouldn't settle a city with such little food, but I explained my reasoning above. I also bought the cattle immediately after settling Busan.

- Happiness is not easy on this map, especially if you steal workers from Colombo. Settling on luxuries, trying to get other CS allies, and buying luxuries will help. I needed Circuses and Monarchy before Landed Elite, too.

- Granaries ASAP in expos is very important. The expo will grow so much faster, and it'll allow you to start your food caravan to the capital sooner.

- Use forest chops to speed up settlers, granaries, libraries, etc. - these have important dependencies like National College, food caravans.

- In the same vein, workers are really, really important - I built 2, captured a Settler from Polynesia, and stole one from Colombo by T64. I would've actually liked to have had 1 more at that point.

- Personally, I wouldn't bother with CS trade route quests until the late game when you don't need any more food caravans. Especially in a low-food start like this where you will probably want to send food to the expos all game for a Science Victory. (For most of the game, I sent a caravan and cargo ship to Seoul, a cargo ship to Jeonju, and 1, caravans to Busan)

 

[dr_s]

- Use forest chops to speed up settlers, granaries, libraries, etc. - these have important dependencies like National College, food caravans.

Thanks for the tips. After a few attempts, I was able to reproduce your result. The breakthrough came when I back-calculated the settling dates for the expos and realized that you probably produced your settlers around turns 37 and 44. That really focused my attention, and made me realize the importance of chopping them out. That and a little luck with the ruins (+1 pop in capital) got the job done.

Also, settling on lux resources removes the dilemma of what to improve first, and provides the happiness while letting the workers focus on food/production tiles.

Spoiler :

 

[dwcole78]

So no advice on my actual current situation huh? Thank you Genuine Risk for playing the map through. I didn't think it was as impossible as everyone was making out good to see that is true. I don't normally use internal caravans though some of the streamers I watch swear by them (meinteam in particular) at higher levels are non internal caravans frowned upon? I agree growth is key especially if you are going for science which is pretty much always my plan. On lower levels until about the middle ages I would have my cities on growth focus pretty much all the time. Started micromanaging more around emperor. I assume at deity using the focus is pretty much a no no?

Still looking for advice on situation I posted pics on - (aka should I declare to remove the city to my south?) At lower levels Kamehamamaha didn't pursue war aggressively but not sure if he is different on deity. Life been keeping me from gaming for a bit but hope to get back to this soon (and since work has been busy should have the money to buy the packs I am missing from five so I can participate in the community games).

 

[Nizef]

So no advice on my actual current situation huh? Thank you Genuine Risk for playing the map through. I didn't think it was as impossible as everyone was making out good to see that is true. I don't normally use internal caravans though some of the streamers I watch swear by them (meinteam in particular) at higher levels are non internal caravans frowned upon? I agree growth is key especially if you are going for science which is pretty much always my plan. On lower levels until about the middle ages I would have my cities on growth focus pretty much all the time. Started micromanaging more around emperor. I assume at deity using the focus is pretty much a no no?

Still looking for advice on situation I posted pics on - (aka should I declare to remove the city to my south?) At lower levels Kamehamamaha didn't pursue war aggressively but not sure if he is different on deity. Life been keeping me from gaming for a bit but hope to get back to this soon (and since work has been busy should have the money to buy the packs I am missing from five so I can participate in the community games).

My thought process would include at least the following:
1. Is the new city of strategic value to you (or Polynesia)?
2. Even if Polynesia is not very aggressive they will sometimes spam cities everywhere. Prepare yourself for them settling between Seoul and Colombo and also in the vicinity of Mt. Fuji.
3. You could do with another city, if you can find the happiness for it.
4. The city is not very defendable. An attack from the sea might be ugly.
5. If you don´t do anything about it, it will expand and take tiles that you would like to have.
6. Do you have the means to conquer (Polynesia might build walls and a ranged unit when you attack, so you would still potentially need 5 CBs and 2 melee units)?

I would argue that the answer to question number 1 would be NO and also that you are too low on happiness to run a third city for now. Then we come to style of play. Personally I dislike when AIs settle close to my capital, so I would probably take it out even if there is no particular threat and only marginal gains. It might also serve as a training ground for you: Deity AIs are just as stupid as on Emperor or Immortal but they will use their bonuses to build more units. However, it might be good for you to overcome any unnecessary respect for the Deity AI.

 

[mbbcam]

at higher levels are non internal caravans frowned upon?

I think it is important to realise that what you are seeing are *recommendations*, not cast iron "you must do this, you must not do that". One needs to be flexible, and adjust one's play according to the circumstances. There are lots of moving parts in these games, and at the heart of almost every decision is a cost-benefit analysis (something I am not good at). Nizef's thought process starts with precisely that -- what are the benefits, of an action, and then what are the costs (if Polynesia is left alone they could become a nuisance).

The use of food trade routes is a case in question. If you are playing Tradition, then going for all-out growth makes sense. But what if a strategically important City State gives you a quest for a trade route? There might be greater benefit in fulfilling that request than in sending a trade route to one of your own cities. It will depend on the circumstances and what you are trying to do at that time. If you have a neighbour who is shaping up to attack you, and that City State would be a useful buffer, then it could be very worthwhile to get them allied. Or you might be low on happiness, and their luxes would allow you to keep growing. If you are playing a Liberty game and have a lot of cities, you might not have the happiness to allow you to use food trade routes. In that case, fulfilling a City State quest for a trade route might be even more compelling if it got you the happiness you need. And if you are playing peddroelm's rather unusual Honor-Commerce-Autocracy strategy for Domination, growth will not be such an important goal. Instead, you will be spamming a lot of units.

One thing I have observed is that it is probably not a good idea to think in terms of "recipes for success" -- it is better to let the map tell you what to do. But I am not very good at listening and understanding ... The good players seem to be very adaptable and use their situational awareness to inform their decisions. Because the right answer does not depend on any rigid law, it depends on a constantly evolving situation that you have to monitor, and if possible predict what is going to happen so that you can forestall it. A bit like real-world strategy ...

 

[beetle]

So no advice on my actual current situation huh?

Sorry, I never posted my play of this map. What you want is to not invite the AIs to settle your continent. I realize that is not the advise you are looking for, but by T140 you are done settling, and that Polynesia city is in a terrible location. He is only there because you left an Ivory tile unclaimed. Take it late game, after he has built you some of his UI.

Spoiler T064 :

First I tried going south to the coast, but that ended up feeling week, so I settled inland T0 after all.

Spoiler T140 :

I decided I wanted a fifth city right after NC, to lock up the Ivory. I went on to win a very lazy but quite enjoyable SV T320. I was disappointed I could not get sub-300 from Korea.

…at higher levels are non internal caravans frowned upon?

I understand the consensus to be that internal caravans are OP. As I recall, @Acken recommends that the external trade route should yield 3x the food of an internal TR to be worth the bother. As a mediocre deity player, I aim for only 2x. The external TR also help with diplomacy; so I aim for one per AI — to keep them all friendly.

 

[dwcole78]

Interesting thanks for the advice but generally people do not use the external trade routes and rely on other things for money? Interesting as I usually go all out for money and buy lots of things (tiles, produced buildings). Hmm so the polynesia city is in a terrible location? Given the lux and food I thought it was a good one it planted one exactly where I was thinking of planting one. Interesting.

 

[beetle]

Interesting thanks for the advice but generally people do not use the external trade routes and rely on other things for money?

I am no help. I cannot figure out how @Acken and the rest solve their gold problems without several many external trade routes.

Hmm so the polynesia city is in a terrible location?

OMG yes! Quite the awful location! End of peninsula is almost always terrible, and this is no exception. Two tiles to NW on the coastal hill (where I have Daegu) picks up all the lux and the food plus it (1) gives you fewer sea tiles, and (2) is much more defensible.

 

[mbbcam]

There are lots of different ways to play the game, and one of the interesting things about watching videos by different players is to see the numerous different techniques that can be used. Yesterday, I was watching @peddroelm's LP with Byzantium, and it was fascinating to see how he gave friends gold per turn in exchange for lump sums so that he could buy things immediately, instead of having to build them. Such a strategy means that you have to sell everything in sight -- any spare lux or resource gets sold. It was possible on the map he was playing because there were so many luxes and resources within reach. On another map you would have to do something different. I was also struck by how he took a very different tech path from that which I have seen him use for land-based civs. In this case he beelined lighthouses to get extra production and food from sea tiles.

There is always a balance and an interplay between the choices one makes in this game. The reasoning might be, for example, that an internal trade route gives you more population, which might mean that you could work tiles that give you gold per turn, thereby increasing your income. But you have to look at the map and assess the cost-benefit of the various choices. And change things around according to the state of the game.

 

[dwcole78]

Interesting and thanks. See tiles I have always found somewhat useful for money and food but I focus on pop and science rather than production. As many of you likely expected war with polynesia did not go well. They bought walls as soon as I declared and had way more units on the island than my scouting predicted. Eventually he put a trebuchet behind the walls in the city (I was still using catapults). So yeah. I eventually won but took fifty or so turns. Was so far behind other civs at that point stopped playing.

May go back to this save at some point but have the expansion portions to play the group game maps so going to do that now - starting with the korea one since that is the civ I know the best. Likely going to take detailed notes on what I do post screenshots every ten turns or so looking for advice no you shouldn't have done this.

Going to have to accept I am likely unwilling/unable to put the time in to become a great diety level player.

 

[mbbcam]

There is usually very little point in building Catapults -- they are too squishy. Instead, you should build Archers / Comp bows / Crossbows. They are the dominant units until you get to Artillery (some would argue Cannon, but I find them pretty vulnerable, too).

 

[beetle]

Going to have to accept I am likely unwilling/unable to put the time in to become a great deity level player.

I figure that if can at deity, and win half the time, that is good enough. I really enjoy it!