Okay, so loss is sort of motivating to try once more. I might actually finish or be finished by by barbs, AI boxing or bad choices. Mot likely the last one.
Start is below
Spoiler:
I think moving on the sugar is the best option.
Louis of Native Amreica(not even remotely close to SB)
Continets, no events, no huts, unrestricted leaders (I do not play with restricted leaders normally - too boring).
With continents I am way more worried about fogbusting and barbs, but UU should keep them in check.
Met Sulleyman of Dutch... seems to be on another landmass. According to espionage he knows somebody else. Presumably on his landmass.
Teched: Mining>BW. Revolted to slavery, plan to whip settler ASAP.
I am rather unsure about future plan...
tech AH... well, there are three pig spots on map, but one is under jungle, one way too far. One pig does not really justify, especially since cap is rather commerce poor (for now).
tech wheel>Potery. Well, I could send chopped WB to clams+FP spot and start generating commerce here.
tech Sailing>masonry, settle fishspot (instant connection through the coast), play for GLH (whip lighthouse with overflow, whip dog, hold these until masonry is done or something like that)
Currently I fancy Sailing>GLH plan, I guess mostly cause that would be enough of adavantage to win (hopefully). also does not look like I need to compete for the land...
Thanks, for the input. Even if I do not follow the advices, it's still interesting to hear someone's else opinion.
Onto the game:
to T57 - 1720BC
Spoiler:
Tech went Sailing>Masonry> Wheel. I've built GLH. Met another AI, Asoka of Vikings.
Barbs were passable. One archer managed to generate above dog warrior and went to pillage one of the corns due to my bad fogbusting.
Onto the questions/comments:
granary first:
the problem is tech cost, with no seafood, no riverside I think going for granary is lots of tech. It approximately doubles the tech path needed to start GLH. With Stonehenge going somewhere ~2900BC... (Overall unrestricted has probably somewhat later wonder dates, since being on other civ influence leaders (for example, Shaka of Mai does build some wonders, especially with marble)).
Now, Cahokia is not the city which needs/wants the lighthouse, so yes, loosing GLH and having LH instead of granary would look extremely silly. Going for granary would likely mean I would still teching Masonry. Ofcourse, with Sulleyman (of Dutch) being neighbor on the other side of water... well, I will need writing to open borders and reap true benefits of GLH. And writing is likely going to happen rather late. (Asoka could get writing, but from what I've seen his WB is stuck between me and Sulleyman)
unrestricted leaders: I mention by leader name, cause it is more important as they keep most of their behavior similar (attitude to cancel declaration, unit build probabilities). Not sure how to make this better (so far, I've met Sulleyman of Dutch and Asoka of vikings by the way). I think it's still better than thinking that Sumeria is always protective. Outside of scoreboard the game also uses leader names (tech, espionage, resource screens, etc)
worker vs warrior: I don't think it is possible to have 2xworker and be size 4 in this situation. So, 2xwarrior +1xworker.
pigs: 2S1W was probably better idea, true.
whip size: I am not sold on working unimproved beeing good. Without granary I am pretty sure whipping on lower pop count is better. (Technically I think one could whip settler at size6 and nearly full bin, finish the seetler and grow, with worker whip follow... never tried pulling this out myself - Cahokia does not have big enough food surplus for what, IMHO, maybe size 5 with nearly full bin would have been interesting, but I worked the mines for some turns --- figured that riverside greenhill is okay and PH mine is more for the fish city (might actually build Maoi - stone+industrious))
scouting: from fog borders east looked like flat desert, so I opted not to investigate it with warriors.
Played to 1360BC T66
Mostly uneventful period. Finished pottery, accumulated some gold, plan to do writing next.
Spoiler:
Land overview...
Tried growing while building settler. I think I should adopt this approach for frequent usage
Onto comments:
Mids.... with Cahokia forests gone I don't think there is any chance. If I scouted better and saw stone earlier... given that there is enough food and no sign of happy resources... GLH at least helps the new cities to start contributing early, but I will need Monarchy rather fast.
Non coastal pig city... I think about it at some point. The next one I think is jungle pigs/shared corn - close and some sugar will probably get cottaged (well, I need one for myself and some for trades, but is a big cluster).
LH is likely mistake. At least one should be Mids for gold (Poverty Point). another likely warrior to put in fog. The typical problem with LH (for me) is that I put them off and then start worrying about hammer decay which leads into actually finishing them. Poverty point LH is passable, but Mound city does not need one for long time.
(Poverty point produced settler in this set, so LH is on like 8 turns towards decay... ).
I am not sure what comes after writing (except AH for pigs). Aesthetics? Or rush go for Alpha (Asoka could get that in theory).
Specifically : whipping at very city low sizes.
It can give one the impression of maximizing production,
If growing is seen as a delay towards whipping the item,
Which it is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In practice,
An easy way to do this is to determine what tiles are worth working and never whip them.
Let's look if working something as unimproved sugar is worth it... Whipping size 4 at full bin and regrow as in picture is 4 food saved compared to growing 4>5 and whipping down to 3. So, in this scenario whipping at lower size saves food.
4>2 whip typically comes earlier so I think you underestimate giving up two least usefull tiles in order to get city center + the best tile in the new city. I don't see what is wrong with whipping away PH for a settler...
Never whip tiles... I do agree, but aren't these essentially food scpecials only?
It's too late to research Alphabet yourself, I would think. Even with only 2 known AIs. Aesthetics is just fine.
It could be a good time, however, to prepare a ScoutShip to send in foreign waters when you open borders. You've met 2 AIs already, maybe you can meet more.
I had WB 1 turn to completion in cap I think. However, I am more reliant on espionage screen spendings/splits to guess whether there are extra AI. In this case my honest guess is no. (Well, maybe someone far away behind island chain -- one can never exclude that).
Why the city dot in the SE corner ? Is there commerce on the tile 2S2E that indicates coast ?
There is a fish in the SE corner of it's cross. It is somehow not seen on the screenshot.
How in hell did Poverty Point come back to size 1 ? The fish was already improved in your last set... Don't tell me you whipped the settler 2->1... That would be ungodly
But the new city is commerce plus. How can I resist that? In general with low happy cap and GLH... I think horizontal growth is way more important than vertical.
Random word of caution : make sure you don't miss a resource deal for happiness.
All I saw was notification that Asoka won't trade the sheep. I guess, I could have tried grabbing sheep in the case like this. But if he had wine I would have nothing to trade for...
Onto 725BC (T86):
Well, I skipped aH and went for writing. Dropped the slider and had dreams of getting some failgold through Mids.... Mids happened in 1040BC... (by Sulleiman of Dutch... and from the looks of it in a non-coastal city) I've got ~90 gold from overflow (whipped library), which could have been most of granary in that city, sigh.
The point I do not like with Aesthetics... is being stretched all over the place with settlers+infrastructure already.
With the library done in cap, decided to go for Alpha (~6 turns at that point). Also covered Myst and part of Poly (traded for the rest). Got IW, 2/3 Polytheism, Monotheism and AH out of Alpha. I revolted to org immediately, and instead of granary Poverty Point is likely whipping the missionary. I do not think AI ever puts the missionaries on galleys, do they? I think the first missionary goes tothe parasitic city to the east of capitol, which whips and uses some mines to make two more (for cap and FP area).
some images:
Spoiler:
Glorious cap, I've got the merchant ofcourse
It might be a mental issue, but I have hard times whipping granaries. I mean, why I would ever whip granary in that picture.
Island... the land I've got control of... the southern coast for barb galley spams... probably still open
Poverty Point... no granary and about to be whipped to ground yet again....
Not sure what the plan is with the GM...
settle? I don't think it is a good idea.
trade mission? With my ~-25 gold it will take forever to burn... and needs a galley, which is rather useless for anything else at this point.
Golden age... just revolted and seems wasteful
Bulbing? MC is not worthy and CS bulb seems like long shot (need Currency, CoL and MC for that... and Maths and might need Monarchy).
I do plan teching Currency next and have gold to carry through (and can beg for gold after getting it), so might wait a bit before deciding. But probably should have starting looking for the place to produce the galley. (one more whip, I guess).
Mehmed would trade me Monarchy (I teched through priesthood manually ) except I have nothing to trade at the moment. Asoka won't trade Maths (and won't until Sulleiman gets it).
I am about to finish settling (settler running for the corner fish).
Teched Currency and traded for Monarchy (I revolted to accumulate diplo points, should have waited ~6-7 turns with org revolt, sigh). Surprisingly Sulleiman got CoL, so traded for most of it with Asoka. I opted for Meditation>Philo... looking back should have went Maths>CS, but I somehow believed by the time I am done with Philo, Sulleiman would have Maths.... and he does not.
I caught up with infra (only SW corner city does not have granary) installed state religion everythere (cap ended receiving it at 325BC). Managed to trade for silk, and AI's luckily cancelled sheep for wine (took both). I prtobably need to road another corn for health bonus.
images:
Spoiler:
The AI continent:
It does not look like Mids are in the coastal city. I probably should delete scouting boat at this point.
The trade screen:
I think actually self tech Maths... cause what I would tech otherwise?(Compass - no self need, MC - maybe but by the time I am done with it, I should be out of organized religion and slavery, no hapiness on forges either).
I also probably wait on Pacifism... Asoka is 1 point short of being firendly and resource stuff should kick in a few turns... I've got some forest in the south to pulverize, while Asoka has not built a single wonder so far (which is surprising, but I hope he is building Music wonders if any)... however I need 2-3 more workers (crack the whips again). I also need to get extra WB for the SE corner fish.
If I get Asoka to firendly and tech Maths I would get to trade for Calendar, which is good for hapiness in the cities. I might need to gift something to Sulleiman to get him to friendly in reasonable timeframe.(shared HR and religion will get there eventually, one of AI wonders --- builds Mids, techs Monarchy and keeps running HR).
I took me that long to get Liberalism (I think teching Nationalism instead of taking it with Lib, was sort of mistake by 640AD I might have lost it). Good things are that I have forges everywhere and traded for Gunpowder (from Sullei the Dutch, who is nice and friendly at this time).
Guess, it i the time to think about shipping horsies across that sea passage in non-trade way. I shouild probably find where my WII warrior is.
Overall, I was not happy with
turns spent in Anarchy (6 in total I think (religion, org, monarchy, 2x for bureau/caste/pacifism and the last to theo+salvery))
GPP production pig+sugars apparently fired before the Great library and I've run merchants in there for some time. Merchant would not have been that bad, but not knowing what is going in mycities is very bad.
tech path - I think Philo tech was way premature, and ofcourse Sulleiman got Maths me being one turn short from finishing it.
Guess, the core of problem is not caring enough about the game. However, I am not sure that is changeable.
pics:
Spoiler:
Tech situation... other continent did not show up so far. Strangely I did not see messages about GG being born.
Overview of cities:
I would prefer to be higher on pop, but whipped some forges and AP temples after period of pacifism. I guess these will pay off. At least cheap forges.
Chop job:
Due to being extremely stupid, that place has not produced GS yet (GS went for Academy (I made it before thinking and now I think it was not the samrt way), 1 bulb Education, 1 bulb Liberalism). Not sure what I want to do with the next... bulbing press seems wasteful (on deity, on lower difficulty I would bulb PP without regrets).
The best thing from completing it was likely denial and Asoka getting ~250 gold in cash from it. Well, maybe the actual best was producing extra workers (have 7 doing mostly roading at the moment).
Some trades:
Compass happened cause I stupidly made Academy in cap, so had to do something before actual bulb on Education would happen.
Well, I do not like the price, but I needed both techs.
There was no real reason to switch him into caste...
Asoka built AP... in oprobably the only city on the hill in their damn continent, but...
Apparently Sullei has so much tundra that in the time for the second election I managed to outgrow him. I will need to check my options for stopping fastforwarding the next one... (cancel open borders, so I can reopen them with AP?).
Their land, mostly scouted with Tao missionary:
I like Sulleiman (The Dutch) core and mids, but from logistics point of view I think Asoka has to come first. Also between UU and what I saw in the cities (lots of swords, likely due to not having Feud for a long time) I expect more Berserkers than Muskets in Asoka (of Vikings) cities. Also if production is good I might try eliminating Sulleiman (would gift tundra cities to Asoka).
Luckily both of them are of very reasonable size. Unluckily no cities near border and hill/forest chain in the lower part of their border. (I think that chain is better attacked from Asoka's side).
Interesting logistics situations. It's a pity that there are no major cities within 2 tiles from the border on either side. Everything up to Bjorgvin seems worth keeping, only Maastricht and Middelburg look very poor.
If you have enough ships, I would first land a stack and move it to the Viking part of the border near Utrecht. This stack goes for Utrecht->Amsterdam as you declare war. On the turn of declaration, you land a second stack 2E of Rotterdam (forking Amsterdam). Depending on defences, this stack takes either Rotterdam or Amsterdam. Subsequently, it recombines with the Utrecht stack and moves northeast. In this particular case, I would even consider taking peace after The Hague, healing and taking out the Vikings, and then redeclaring on the Dutch to take their last cities.
If the naval situation is poorer, taking out the Vikings first is probably better. Let them keep Bjorgvin when you vassal them, and then take out the Dutch.
I have one galley... and that is my entire fleet. (I've built Maoi in - so at least there is another site with raw hammers).
From that I recall Bjorgwin is putting a lot of cultural pressure with culture from AP and another wonder (Angkor Wat probably - Vikings/Asoka built quite a few) adding up, I think some tiles towards Hague might flip, which would allow to capture it in T1. If that happens I think going for the Dutch would be better. (2SW from the Hague would be the next move - likely choosing between Amsterdam and another city.). Well, I think the best is to make troops and wait for cultural influence before deciding
To 880AD... well, whipped and shipped horses and did my best to remain AP leader...
Spoiler:
So close borders vote for opening gave ~8 extra turns. Might be just enough.
Meanwhile, Sulleiman the Dutch switched to Organized Religion and for the first time in ~500years I tried investigate espionage screen
Spoiler:
I've applied few formulas from this forum. Looks like ~488 hammers... except it's base hammers so in the case he is building Taj with trhat filthy tundra marble, he would be just 12 hammers short.
Now, given his tech path -- self-teched Gunpowder, MT -- if i let him build Taj (could be building Versailles for all I know, except that would be finished and he does not have DR), so if I let him he will field at least grenadiers by the time I am finished with vikings.
Ofcourse winkings lead by Asoka (who has 2xshrine and spiral minaret by now) seems to be building 2 huge things (Versailles+Taj?), but at least does not have marble (and no Astronomy).
Situation around Hague
Spoiler:
I could gather 21 Cuirrassiers+longbow (if i ever thought he would tech MT, that would be pike).
4 just bellow, can't jump out of culture and reach Hague. Given cities defenses that is rather not needed. (maybe I could teleport them out to near the rice fort? I'll need to calculate)
In the roterdam
Spoiler:
I could tale out these 4 and that other 4 patch into hills NW of Utecht, which would be in time to attack Utrech at T2-3 of war.
If i just close borders, lower 4 stack teleports to the southernmost hill in Asoka's land -- unroaded forested hill. (that is my guess, not 100%sure). Could move them to attack Utrech at T2.
I do have some overflow this turn (and 8+ Cuirs in my teirritory). Maybe I should add few more galleys (have 4 at the moment). Dutch fleet was ~3 galleys in Amsterdam (maybe something in tundra cities too, have not seen these since taosist journey). Utrecht has Mids and Hagia.
I'd like 4-5 more turns to ship troops, but all my instincts say to strike now...
The war went, okay. I've lost two empty galleys and used GG (splashing WII warrior also, sigh) to generate 6 move galeon. That helped to collect secondary force near Roterdam, oh and Sulleiman never revolting out of caste was cute too.
The first guy who found me was Julius of Ethiopia, rather backwards but had Astro, which I tarded (immediately sent caravel to look for the stuff -- ended stuffing MT to Asoka for 700+ gold and map, maybe having MT slows him from ideas beelining rifles). Then I've met the techers... I've tried to get WTH was going between Pacal and Mansa -- looks like Wang declared on Pacal and then vassaled under Mansa... Not sure these two are doing much of actrual fighting... Julius has full hands and Pacal as the worst enemy.
Got some nice resurse deals (gold, gem, fur, spices -- finally deleted those ugly warriors). I have not revolted to any Pyramids options (Representation would mostly go to fat cities in revolt and I am not sure Police State pays off in time - have 31 Cuirrassiers left).
Overall, not sure what to do with 2000+gold (would upgrade one galley to galleon and probably something else) I have... Tech Chemistry? Sulleiman will have that in 10 turns... SM -- with Mansa around sounds wasteful. Democracy for trade value? Mansa has it already, others might not trade SM.
Overall, I think I would aim for State property, assembly line and stomp afterwards somehow.
List of leaders:
Sulleiman of Dutch - vassaled
Asoka of Vikings --- apparently tech leader -- on the verge of loosing some cities (assuming I figure logistics part)
Mansa of Egypt -- with Oracle, Colossus, Sankore... why he is so low on tech? never broke through philo apparently.
Wang of Korea -- not sure how big but under Mansa
Pacal of Arabia
Julius of Ethiopia -- the one who built Stonehenge at 2800BC.
I have a feeling that building spaceship is not the best idea.
The next great scientist is in ~10 turns, I think Golden Age and sorting civics is in order. The last one I used for PP, decided that generating some extra gold would be sweet. By that time I should have enough votes just to say no to any Asoka's nonsense even if did not end owning AP (plan is to jump to free religion ofcourse). Maybe +25% on units is worth it, cause if I can I probably want all Asoka's land.
Pretty good position. Obvious next move is to take out Asoka. Then you either vassal him and tech to Artillery to take the next continent, or if the latter is a bit too advanced you can just kill Asoka and tech to tanks or Space. It's usually quite easy to win space when you have 20 cities.
to 1070AD...
I chose to tech RP (figured with watermills that is the most usefull for selftech after Chemistry which was coming my way anyway and in the worst I could tech rifling). In the end got SM from Julius and Chemistry from my vassal. Asoka apparently started settling islands....
From what I saw his main counterstak went from Bjorgwin to threaten some dutch tundra... which was very wellcome. Birka built Versailles, which will be nice. Upsala is main healing center (figured WIIIM1 warrior is better at sitting in one place).
Still have ~40 Cuirs, I think might stop producing these (still want three mainland cities from Vikings, after probably going to try killing him off completely). Unhapiness is some sort of problem since Mansa and Kong sit in emancipation... (I think that will be cured by tanks most likely). Dye seems impossible to get hands on and other happy resource trades are not showing up (Asoka's land should provide at least silk).
pics:
Spoiler:
p.s. I joined war vs Pacal... for diplo and since Wang asked. Got -1 from Mansa for declaring on his friend... lol.
to 1120AD...
midset I recalled why fighting Pacal was bad... resource trades. I've lost fur+gold resources that way.
The war was rather comical, running up to the city and when running remains and healed up reinforcements from Upsala to the next one. I deleted down to no unit cost at the end (might be a bit much since I might want visit two island cities of Asoka and barbarian too - got ten turns to prepare).
I could have taken one of Asoka's cities in peace treaty (most likely), but opted for Corporation tech since it is on way to AL.
Communism is in two turns with enough gold to cover it, cap probably produces next great person and NE city yet another for GA (I need to generate two different - reminder to myself, probbaly should have kept Pacifism at least for 5 turns).
pics:
Spoiler:
Makes me think, if I went cap Asoka and rifling. Probably Mansa would be dead/vasalized rather soon. Upkeep was south of 300 gold in the middle of the war...
Nice land in the right hands...
The next place to visit:
I thought that if you have Versailles on another island colonial thing does not trigger...
Colonial maintence (highest limit... after 6th? (or 7th?) city on another landmass) is 2x as distance to capital maintence (distance 3.5, colony 7, distance 15, colony 30). So Versailles or Forbidden Palace just decrease distance value (including 0 distance and 0 colony in city its built) So for Forbidden Palace its best to build it in the middle of another landmass that you really want to keep (and still need economy for next thing in game and SP is not yet in sight)
Colonial maintence (highest limit... after 6th? (or 7th?) city on another landmass) is 2x as distance to capital maintence (distance 3.5, colony 7, distance 15, colony 30). So Versailles or Forbidden Palace just decrease distance value (including 0 distance and 0 colony in city its built) So for Forbidden Palace its best to build it in the middle of another landmass that you really want to keep (and still need economy for next thing in game and SP is not yet in sight)
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. How can I resist that? In general with low happy cap and GLH... I think horizontal growth is way more important than vertical.
