Delayed Bronze Working Start

Its a good thing to try alternatives to the orthodox strategies for sure. Its also worth considering that Civ4 has been around quite a while now and many different strategies have been tried and promoted; some of them have proven superior to the prevailing orthodoxy and the orthodoxy has been revised to incorporate them, some of them have proven to be viable but not as good as the prevailing orthodoxy and have been rejected.

That doesn't mean that you (or anyone else) shouldn't challenge the orthodoxy but be prepared for a rough ride from the people who have seen it before. They're not close minded but they are sceptical.

I have to say, the rudeness on this thread is shocking! The strategy is controversial, but Brennus has shown this to be a viable strategy on Immortal (for this map at least). I think that should be applauded considering that he has been able to form a strategy for this game despite it being many years old now!

This just highlights the beauty of Civ IV! There is so much complexity to it that even 6/7 years after release, a new successful (I haven't said optimal) strategy can be thought of. Rather than be rude to each other, we should be glad we are able to play such a versatile game with seemingly limitless possibilities!

Tweaking unorthodox strategies, fiddling around with outside the box ways of handling the game is one of the most entertaining aspects of the game.

I must agree with these three posts. The appeal of the game is plotting out a path through the woods, how to get from one settler to an empire that dominates the world? For this to stay fun through the years one must avoid following the same path every time but continue trying out new ideas and looking in new directions. The more variety, and the more discussion, the better. At least that holds true in my book. This approach is just another path, that has value in and of itself.

Regardless if this path is the shortest route or not, it is scenic and worth, in my case, the time spent walking it. But then I always prefer the local route to the highway. I can understand why those who feel they have already seen all the scenic trails don't throw up their arms in joy, but it is a bit surprising that they seem to want to keep the path out of the guide book. In the end it is just more discussion and that is fine.
 
I must agree with these three posts. The appeal of the game is plotting out a path through the woods, how to get from one settler to an empire that dominates the world? For this to stay fun through the years one must avoid following the same path every time but continue trying out new ideas and looking in new directions. The more variety, and the more discussion, the better.

Well, yes, variety is fun.

That's why people play lots of different challenges, for instance being "honorable" (never declare war, never raze cities, never use slavery/police state/...), being a religious zealot (found a religion, declare war on all heathens) or never researching past construction or hundreds of other variants. All of that is ok. If it's fun for you, you're playing the game right.

But these aren't strategies. Playing "honorably" might under very special circumstances actually be your best choice (I doubt it), but that's not why you do it: these house rules are only meant to increase the fun by adding diversity.

If you decide to delay researching BW until after Education because you think that's fun, by all means, go ahead. There is no right or wrong when playing for fun. Others might have a different opinion about what is more fun; but all opinions are equally valid. Nobody here will try to stop you. Have fun!

But this is the strategy section of these boards, and Brennus presented it as a strategy. If you decide to delay researching BW until after Education because you think it's the strongest possible move, we can analyze wether you are right or wrong.
 
No harm, but (with all due respect) I think it shows that you haven't read the article. It only discusses Great Engineer bulbs that are opened up by avoiding Bronze Working (i.e. Feudalism, and to a lesser degree Construction). Once you got a forge you won't be bulbing either one of those two things. And without Bronze Working the only way to get an early Great Engineer is through the Pyramids or the Hanging Gardens.

Thats okay. I did read the whole thread. I was just thinking that if you really want an early engineer, better use him for Pyramids or Great Library. (and the fastest way to get an early engineer is to chop a forge after oracle metal casting) Id rather get an acadamy than wait for engineer from pyramids. (besides, building pyramids without chopping is a huge gamble)
 
Well, yes, variety is fun.

...

But these aren't strategies. Playing "honorably" might under very special circumstances actually be your best choice (I doubt it), but that's not why you do it: these house rules are only meant to increase the fun by adding diversity.

If you decide to delay researching BW until after Education because you think that's fun, by all means, go ahead. There is no right or wrong when playing for fun. Others might have a different opinion about what is more fun; but all opinions are equally valid. Nobody here will try to stop you. Have fun!

But this is the strategy section of these boards, and Brennus presented it as a strategy. If you decide to delay researching BW until after Education because you think it's the strongest possible move, we can analyze wether you are right or wrong.

I appreciate your points, and your attitude by the way, but I'm not sure I agree completely with your conclusion. It seems to imply that there is a best strategy, and that the best strategy is then by definition the only path that qualifies as a "strategy."

First, I don't think it is possible to identify a "best" strategy. There are too many variables and moves and sub-moves involved to compare game A to game B and conclude that one way of playing is the single strongest move possible. Did player A reach Liberalism earlier because his "strategy" was better or did he just better MM his workers and cities? I believe more in multiple viable strategies.

Second, even if you can conclude somehow that some strategy is the best one possible, other paths still qualify as strategies. A sub-optimal (whatever that is) strategy is still a strategy. For example, take any given start and consider if it is better to Rex from the inside out, or rex by blocking off territory, or HA rush, or Axe rush, or work for a Cat+WE attack, or bulb your way to Machinery and X-bow it, or bulb your way to Engineering and Treb it, or run for Liberalism and try some advanced horse action, or stay peaceful until Rifles or whatever. All of those may be doable strategies in certain circumstances, often times is is merely a question what what path the player feels like taking in a particular game.

In general I don't think that delaying BW is the same as role playing or some other arbitrary set of self imposed restrictions. It is far more comparable to avoiding Machinery so that you can bulb Liberalism with a GS in my view. It is simply avoiding a tech to open up other possibilities, nothing more and nothing less.

I don't think Brennus claimed it was the strongest possible move, maybe I have forgotten that part, but if he did people should surely test it out and pronounce the claim true or false. I took it much more as a hypothesis that he was developing as he was going along, starting from the Serfdom angle. That is a method I sometimes use, think something out assuming it is true to see where it leads you, and then evaluate it at that point. Debate on all sides is needed and valuable to examine the result. The only thing that isn't valuable is dismissing it because it doesn't seem logical or fit one's usual path and then attacking the author as a person or as a player.

There may very well be players who don't beeline their way to Calvary, whip and chop them as fast as possible and go romping over the world. That doesn't mean that their way doesn't involve strategy. In my view avoiding BW is a strategy as much as avoiding Fishing or Meditation to bulb what you want with Great People is a strategy. The logical next step is to ask what do you want to do with the bulbs that you have opened up in this way? How do you turn it into an advantage? Brennus states that it is the least expensive path to Liberalism. That opens up possibilities. Or the Feudalism bulb possibility, maybe you can get some very early vassals this way, I don't know. HA or Longbow rush and take vassals very early? Would be a fun strategy to try out.


Brennus didn't seem to make any big promises about it, he just suggested it as a viable possibility:

My main point to players is that they should enter
the game with an open mind about their tech path, and then go with
Bronze Working only if the map is appropriate for that play

3. SOME FINAL THOUGHTS<br>
Bronze Working with its chopping, whipping, and Axemen is often times
great, just not all the time. If you want to get to any tech that
doesn't require it as soon as possible, you might be best off skipping
it for a short or long while, depending on the specific situation. This
can be true if you are going a peaceful science route, a peaceful
cultural route, a peaceful diplomatic route, or even a warmonger route.
Notice that he says "short or long while" meaning that you don't have to wait until after Education to apply this tactic, something you seem to focus in on.

My comments about variety being fun never meant to disqualify this path as a strategy. I agree with you that doing anything you like in the game for personal enjoyment is fine, but I simply disagree with the implied idea that only the strongest possible strategy can be called a strategy. Any viable strategy qualifies and deserves a good debate, and we did get that.

After all, the notion of turning off research and going for a Cultural Victory is a bit daft too really, but it is a viable strategy as well, if you want to play that way.
 
Yeah, I'd consider it a niche strategy. (for a really small niche)
 
I took it much more as a hypothesis that he was developing as he was going along, starting from the Serfdom angle. That is a method I sometimes use, think something out assuming it is true to see where it leads you, and then evaluate it at that point. Debate on all sides is needed and valuable to examine the result. The only thing that isn't valuable is dismissing it because it doesn't seem logical or fit one's usual path and then attacking the author as a person or as a player.

Just saw this. Thanks, Mec. Yes, in academics (all fields) theoretical papers are welcome with the author deductively making their case as much as they can. Colleagues and counterparts can then do their own studies (if they find it worth their time) supporting or refuting the argument. This is often times how theories are built. Even I welcome cordial skepticism.
 
For delaying BW to be a strategy you have to gain something from it. You don't gain anything from the 200 beakers you didn't research. I delay BW all the time if I don't need it early, but you will pick it up or you are simply gimping yourself.
 
For delaying BW to be a strategy you have to gain something from it. You don't gain anything from the 200 beakers you didn't research. I delay BW all the time if I don't need it early, but you will pick it up or you are simply gimping yourself.

I gain alternative bulb opportunities. And you don't just "pick it up." You trade for it, and thereby give an AI something that benefits them as well.
 
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