Delayed Bronze Working Start

[krikav]

And regarding the "altering the standard game settings" argument ... pretty much every top-tier-game out there isn't played the way it's delivered in the "standard settings". Speaking of the games i've played online: altered settings for CS back in the early days of the game (beta 1 - 6.5), simplified graphics for UT, healthbars and itemhotkeys for Dota, selective mode for Diablo3 etc.bla ...

Chosing different settings often means playing the game in a better way. This is certainly true for Civ4 and it's random events and huts, even more when you want to compare games online.

The rule-convention for games are by no means static.
The rules by which grandmasters play chess today, is very different from the rules that were in place once chess was invented.

But I guess that people like Brennus think that grandmasters of today are playing with inferior rules as well.

 

[admtanaka]

I've been avoiding this thread, but I have a question for the OP:

Is the purpose of this to show that avoiding bronze working is optimal or simply viable? I think that even the first post shows that it can be the latter. I doubt though that it would be optimal under all but the most cooked situations. Even in this example (philosophical leader with stone in the capital BFC), delaying bronze working doesn't seem to let you win either more easily or more quickly.

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

I've been avoiding this thread, but I have a question for the OP:

Is the purpose of this to show that avoiding bronze working is optimal or simply viable? I think that even the first post shows that it can be the latter. I doubt though that it would be optimal under all but the most cooked situations. Even in this example (philosophical leader with stone in the capital BFC), delaying bronze working doesn't seem to let you win either more easily or more quickly.

I've been consistently winning on Immortal and have developed some approaches that avoid Bronze Working when I believe the map is appropriate. It appears to be more controversial with some than I could of imagined. This Liberalism bulb here is the deepest of the non-Bronze Working bulbs, but I do believe it has some promise. The others can be done with one's first great person, so the Bronze Working delay isn't even that extreme. I am already confident of the viability of these techniques on Immortal or lower as I have used them myself for some (dominant) victories. I do not believe this particular game showed it to be "optimal" as Cseanny's position was pretty good and he played the map quite a bit different than me. Unfortunately the thread then devolved into a "Lib race" which was not the intension. Even I could have got to Lib much sooner if I wasn't trying to set up an actual viable civilization with Oxford, cottages, etc..., and trying to establish as much tech seperation with the AIs as possible.

A "viable strategy" is good. An "optimal strategy" is better. Following the crowd to mimic the well-trodden techniques of others sounds a bit boring and probably wouldn't inspire me to keep playing. Thinking for myself and going down the less-trodden path to see if there's anything there is probably the only thing that could motivate me to keep playing this game in single player. I do like this game and enjoy playing it, but I also have my one big pet peeve with it (the "universal hammer").

 

[pigswill]

Its a good thing to try alternatives to the orthodox strategies for sure. Its also worth considering that Civ4 has been around quite a while now and many different strategies have been tried and promoted; some of them have proven superior to the prevailing orthodoxy and the orthodoxy has been revised to incorporate them, some of them have proven to be viable but not as good as the prevailing orthodoxy and have been rejected.

That doesn't mean that you (or anyone else) shouldn't challenge the orthodoxy but be prepared for a rough ride from the people who have seen it before. They're not close minded but they are sceptical.

 

[ahcos]

No one here wants to overrule you or anything, you just have to prove your point by posting games. Just arguing about it won't convince anyone. For the moment the conventional strategies have proven to be more effective than your approach from what i can see.

You also have to understand that you're arguing against what's widely seen as the single one strongest civic in the game. You need to have some strong arguments on your side to convince people, and just for the moment i do not see them.

 

[shakabrade]

BW strategy screenies I promised:

Didn't even chop those forests, all the difference came from Slavery.
You can see how early Lib was utilized to Lib Steel which was used for a conquest victory. Therefore, all the strategic aspects of slavery were represented. What is not seen from the pics is that all cities had granary which not only made them grow faster, but also made transition into war mode much faster. Could go straight to cannons instead building granaries first.

Spoiler :

 

[Brennus.Quigley]

BW strategy screenies I promised:

Didn't even chop those forests, all the difference came from Slavery.
You can see how early Lib was utilized to Lib Steel which was used for a conquest victory. Therefore, all the strategic aspects of slavery were represented. What is not seen from the pics is that all cities had granary which not only made them grow faster, but also made transition into war mode much faster. Could go straight to cannons instead building granaries first.

Well played, and thanks for sharing. Glad to see someone play it through, rather than treating it as a "lib race." Interesting to see your approach and your position. With the risk of being mocked again: "good times."

 

[Revent]

I have to say, the rudeness on this thread is shocking! The strategy is controversial, but Brennus has shown this to be a viable strategy on Immortal (for this map at least). I think that should be applauded considering that he has been able to form a strategy for this game despite it being many years old now!

This just highlights the beauty of Civ IV! There is so much complexity to it that even 6/7 years after release, a new successful (I haven't said optimal) strategy can be thought of. Rather than be rude to each other, we should be glad we are able to play such a versatile game with seemingly limitless possibilities!

 

[ahcos]

Well, alot about strategic discussions nowadays evolve around "the best strategy" rather than "a strategy that works". If you either refine a weird strategy (and chose fitting leaders and maps) long enough or just are a very good player, you can make alot, and i really mean alot, things work on Immortal - Archer Rushes, Knight Rushes, Landsknecht Rushes, Religious Economy, Musketman Rushes, Lib to Biology, the limit is your imagination (and some restrictions, of course, it's still Immortal after all). But if you state that there are real advantages of your strategy compared to the classic approach, you have to be ready to prove it. I can't say that this has happened so far.

It's nice to see that people still, after all these years think outside the box, but you have to know the limits of your strategy or prove otherwise. Just to quote out of the conclusion of the actual "guide":

6. CONCLUSION

Bronze Working with its chopping, whipping, and (possible) Axemen is often times great early, just not all the time.

So far, that's just plain wrong, as it's (so far!) better all the time. Even with Events on.

Edit:

To be fair, i still think it's great that he put so much effort in it. That's certainly something to be aknowledged.

 

[DrakeD]

I've been avoiding this thread, but I have a question for the OP:

Is the purpose of this to show that avoiding bronze working is optimal or simply viable? I think that even the first post shows that it can be the latter. I doubt though that it would be optimal under all but the most cooked situations. Even in this example (philosophical leader with stone in the capital BFC), delaying bronze working doesn't seem to let you win either more easily or more quickly.

To me it seems like he try to show that its viable on some starts. IMO he fails, cause bulbing early with great engineer is never worth it, (you could get Great Library or Pyramids with that engineer) and some beakers closer to Liberalism is not worth it either cause you could have more cities/infra/military instead.

So nice try Brennus, but you fail.

 

[coanda]

To me it seems like he try to show that its viable on some starts. IMO he fails, cause bulbing early with great engineer is never worth it, (you could get Great Library or Pyramids with that engineer) and some beakers closer to Liberalism is not worth it either cause you could have more cities/infra/military instead.

So nice try Brennus, but you fail.

... Viable means it can work. He has demonstrated that it can work. Therefore he has demonstrated that it's viable.

Optimal means it's better than all alternatives (like getting GLib or Pyramids with a GE, getting more cities/infra/military instead of bulbing Lib earlier); I don't think it's been demonstrated to be optimal, but given the amount of random chance involved in Civ4 you can almost never actually demonstrate that a strategy was the optimal one.

 

[Ben Lehman]

I was one of the folks who asked for this. Thanks for posting it!

I am a bad person for finding the ensuing discussion hilarious, but I do.

 

[DrakeD]

... Viable means it can work. He has demonstrated that it can work. Therefore he has demonstrated that it's viable.

Optimal means it's better than all alternatives (like getting GLib or Pyramids with a GE, getting more cities/infra/military instead of bulbing Lib earlier); I don't think it's been demonstrated to be optimal, but given the amount of random chance involved in Civ4 you can almost never actually demonstrate that a strategy was the optimal one.

I dont think he has proven that you can get lib earlier. At least not with tech trading on. Besides, you cant compare with dates only, you have to consider tech pace of opponents. If you trade all techs away, you can get Lib earlier, but it will be worth less.

All he has proven is that you can get marginal profit for a huge gamble IMHO.

edit: assuming is the first time you play the map. I admit that I like to replay maps for optimal strategy

 

[shakabrade]

I still have to test it, but I think you can get Lib earlier (and more certainly) on more suitable map like many times mentioned Great_Plains, with an average start there (plains cows as only food with many brown tiles). Especially for cultural victory since you don't want to whip cottages without food surplus, and there usually aren't any forests around.

Brennus' strategy doesn't fit most of the maps and victory conditions, but that was never stated. And how many people here knew if you skip BW, you can make Lib so much closer until this thread.

I didn't.

It is a shame this thread didn't evolve into tweaking this strategy to its max, so it could be judged accordingly. Brennus did show some inexperience with the game by some statements, but there should be more experienced people here to moderate ideas to its max. Not to mock and dismiss without consideration. Like everybody knew everything about the game when they started playing it. If we react like this to any new idea, there will not be any more ideas and this forum will get boring and die.

If we renamed this strategy into: Benefits from delayed BW on food and forest poor maps, this argument wouldn't be as ugly because you could read more from a title. That is because most people here read only title (like I did first time I reacted to this strategy (not nice)).

And here is an actual conclusion from an article:


6. CONCLUSION

Bronze Working with its chopping, whipping, and (possible) Axemen is often times great early, just not all the time. If you want to get to any mid-tier technology that doesn't require it as soon as possible, you might be best off skipping it for a short or long while, depending on the specific situation. This can be true if you are going a peaceful science route (Constitution), a peaceful cultural route (Liberalism and Nationalism), or even a warmonger route (Military Tradition and/or Gunpowder). The overall point is that it is sometimes best to layoff the Bronze Working for awhile. Not only can it be good strategy, but your populations and forests will also be appreciative! Good times.


What is wrong with this?

 

[Manco Capac]

I applaud you perspective. Myself, I feel kiddy. This you are growing at a great pace strategically in your games.

 

[UnforcedError]

I recommended an Immortal Great Plains game for HOF IX, although I made it conquest thinking of the Feud bulb. (Guess we could still change it into culture to test the Lib race.)

 

[Manco Capac]

Ha I knew this map setting was not chosen randomly. It had to be tied with BW delayed.

 

[krikav]

It is a shame this thread didn't evolve into tweaking this strategy to its max, so it could be judged accordingly.

This is what I wanted all the time as well, and I did my best to continiously steer the discussion toward this goal. Tweaking unorthodox strategies, fiddling around with outside the box ways of handling the game is one of the most entertaining aspects of the game.

This can't be done especially good with events on, which alot of people pointed out once this testgame was up.

It's a pity that this feedback wasn't appreciated, but instead ridiculed. And people who did not favor DEFAULT settings were depicted as lesser players which were resorting to cheap tricks such as tailoring the maps to suit their capabilities.

It's also a pity that Brennus did not present this as a work-in-progress, but rather as a finished guide, in which he made extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence.


All the chaos that ensued was a consequence of these two unfortunate mistakes.

 

[soundjata]

And yet being controverstial is a way to attract attention.

 

[ahcos]

What is wrong with this?

Hmm.... let me think...... maybe that whipping and chopping is always great? Like, ALWAYS? It's very possible to delay BW, but up to the point where you have Lib? How will you even leverage all the building possibilities you unlock on your way? You can even delay slavery or just forgo it completely sometimes, or you can save alot of forests for later, but saving forests and not whipping means no production forever... it'll just hamper your expansion and research speed so much that it just won't be worth it.

If we'd be talking about "Delay BW until after Alpha, so you trade for it" it'd be a different case, but we're talking about "Delay BW until you've Lib" or something alike... I fail to see it working in a way that's arguably just-as-good or even better than the slavery/chop approach.

But again, i'm open minded, convince me. To repeat myself again: Just hasn't happened yet.