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Delaying Scientific Method?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by MilesBeyond, Dec 4, 2011.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Firstly, I agree completly that it is moronic to set things up in this way... It's almost as if firaxis is trying to discredit the scientific method. :(
    It's the best thing that have ever happend in this universe, and that you don't get any serious bonus from it, but instead are beeing punished, is a gigantic fail and a mockery toward reality.
    This obvious design flaw aside...

    I almost never build monesteries, the 10% is too small to give a return of hammer investment for a forseable future.
    If you are trying to be religious there is generally a period in which you can build all the misionaries you need, while in organized religion.
    If you want to spread the religion everywhere, you have a monestery in a production focused city, so the 10% is even more irrelevant there.
    The AP hammer bonus is nice, and if some AI builds it and I happen to belong to the same religion. I might go for some monesteries.

    I don't normally build neither the parthelon nor the Glib neither, I am usually focusing more on either expanding or conquering a neighbour, so some AI is likely to beat me to it.

    And if you follow rhinos advice about binary research, beeline through sci-meth toward biology.
    The extra food will make it possible for your to hire 100 scientists to make up for the two you lost with the great library.
     
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  2. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I tend to avoid sci method, too. That said, if your overall research drops by 25%, I have to wonder what you are doing wrong. I mean - I generally only get a few monasteries in my cap (2, maybe 3) - I figure my overall science drops by maybe 8-10%.

    As for rants about the effects of Sci method - if it bugs you so much, play Civ III - that gives you a wonder that gives 2 free techs.
     
  3. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Obviously Scientific Method isn't a priority tech in itself. It's also lousy trade-bait if you're still concerned about that. But it has such a minor effect on tech rate unless you're in a One City Challenge with multiple monasteries, GLib, and Parthenon... it's basically just empty beakers. So I won't ever aim for Scientific Method, but for something after S.M. I'll go ahead and get Scientific Method on the way without delaying.

    Edit: and regarding a 25% drop in research rate, that's baloney. Before you get monasteries, you'll get Library, University, and Observatory - they're better ways of spending your hammers (until you have 6 Unis., at least). So some of your cities will have no monasteries because they don't generate much commerce. Those which have monasteries will already have 175%-275% research from Library, University, Observatory, and maybe Academy. You should see a drop of no more than 11% with no Academies, and every single city in your empire having two monasteries. A more realistic situation will see a drop of 0-5%.
     
  4. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

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    I have no problem with Scientific Method temporarily reducing your science output. The rift within the intellecual elite is going to cause wasteful infighting, with religious instituations of learning being as threatened as traditional not-quite-scientific scholarship.
    The mechanics actually model this really well, and major breakthroughs are available shortly after SM The only thing that feels a little off is that Laboratories become available quite late to pick up the slack for overall rate of progress.

    The continuing whinging about this is somewhere between annoying and amusing.
     
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  5. The Oz-Man

    The Oz-Man Enter: The VAIKE!

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    Getting to Scientific Method early opens up Physics (free Great Scientist) and Biology (for easy additional scientist specialists). By the time you hit that point in the tech tree, you have so many options to more than make up for what's been lost that it's not bad. I'll sometimes delay SM to build a couple more monasteries, but only to spread religions around to benefit FR and AP clout; once I've got a few, I beeline Scientific Method just because there's so much good stuff on the other side of it.
     
  6. Ormylar

    Ormylar Chieftain

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    The way I understand Scientific Method (this is my interpretation) is not to boost science, but more like a historical figure when science began to grow and religion began to diminish. Sure The Great Library isn't religious building but monastaries, parthenon, stonehenge, etc are. That's what I think of it at least.
     
  7. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    First off, parthenon is not that good. It gets you a couple gp sooner, but by the time you're on your 5th one or so it shaves like a turn off each. Not much. I wouldn't worry about losing it by the time sci method rolls around.

    Losing the scientist gp points hurts more, but still manageable. To offset the 10% monastery loss I usually switch to free religion. Or just tech physics on your next turn and use the scientist to bulb something. It'll more than offset the lost beakers. Just make sure you have the monasteries you need to spread religion.

    I used to fret the same way over techs like astronomy (obsoletes colossus) and corporation (obsoletes glh) but you really can't worry about them because ultimately to progress you need them. Those wonders would be mad op if they never went obsolete. They're already strong enough. Same with glib. The only smart thing to do might be to research other prereqs you need first for the techs beyond corporation/sci method.

    From a historical perspective I think the glib and monasteries were old ways of thinking- research run but a bunch of religious institutions and exclusive aristocracy in the case of the glib. Sci method is a revolution against that so those things become obsolete.
     
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  8. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Or research communism and go state property and up your research from the savings. Or go bio and get super farms and run more specialists. Or go bio->Medicine and found sid's sushi and grow your cities HUGE....

    Build forest preserves and raise your happy cap (oh wait - no forests left cause you chopped them all for 1/2 built wonders)
     
  9. RJM

    RJM Prince

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    I just experimented with a recent save in which I could research SM. Discovering it reduced my 100% research output from 731bpt to 629bpt (a drop of 14%) and my 0% research from 221bpt to 147bpt (-33%). It also increased my turns to the next GP from 13 to 22.

    After 10 more turns, during which I had discovered Physics for a free scientist, the 100% output was still 100bpt lower, although the 0% output was only 42bpt lower. In this case, I had not completed Biology (so no benefit from extra food), but researching SM has left me nearly 1,000 beakers lower so far and this loss is still growing.

    I might try continuing until the discovery of Biology, but so far delaying SM seems to be the best strategy for peaceful builders.
     
  10. JammerUno

    JammerUno King

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    If you need bio and SP to progress, the cost is worth it.

    Losing 14% means you're overbuilding monasteries. Can't say how your game looks, but worst case scenario for me is losing a total 30% of modifiers in a bureau cap which has a 200% modifier left afterwards, and even that is only a 9% drop. 14% would require 2-3 monastaries in most cities, that's a massive hammer investment for something which (usually) doesn't give a good return.

    Going from 13 to 22 turns for a GP means you don't have the NE, or PHI, or pacifism... If you had, it would have gone from 13 to 17. With two of those, from 13 to 15. Seeing this, I can only assume you don't care about GPP anyway, so what's the problem here?
     
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  11. RJM

    RJM Prince

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    It is certainly true that I don't have an effective GP farm - failure to specialise my cities is probably among my biggest weaknesses. However, I do have the NE and I am running Pacifism. I like to have a Philosophical leader, but in this particular game I didn't. The figures are 14 GP points +100% each from NE and Pacifism. Your calculation probably didn't allow for the 255 points I have already accumulated towards the required 800.

    Part of the 14% beaker drop comes from the loss of 36 bpt from the 2 free GL scientists. Am I overbuilding monasteries? As well as the 10% science and the culture, I'm getting 2 hammers from the AP religion ones and 2 beakers from the Sankore ones. (Possibly I should have converted to the AP religion, which would have saved quite a few monasteries, but there are diplomatic considerations to take account of.) Looking at the save, and allowing for the two religions, I think I have too few monasteries. Only 2 cities have 2 (and none have 3). Anyway, they're giving me some useful beakers.

    You say that the cost is worth it if you need bio and SP (I assume State Property). This may be true, although the cost looks very high and it is of course a value judgement as to whether it is actually worth it. Personally, I rarely use state property; I prefer the extra commerce from Free Market. However, I'd be interested in the arguments for favouring SP over FM.

    Incidentally, I continued my experiment through to the discovery of biology. Not discovering SM continues to give far more beakers. The free scientist is countered by the earlier scientist from GP points so they cancel out. It needs 9 extra scientists from the extra bio food to counter the lost beakers. They simply weren't available in this particular save.
     
  12. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    If you went from 13 to 22 based off the great scientists I have to think you never went caste system in this game and are on only your 3rd or 4th great person. Go caste plus pacifism earlier, pop a golden age, pop 6-7 gp in a few turns, then by the time you research sci method you'll hardly notice. You'll go from like 50 turns to 55.
     
  13. Colonel Mustard

    Colonel Mustard Condiment Pirate Mouse

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    See below.

    ------

    ^See above. :)

    I try to get at least 4 monasteries in OCC, I managed to get 6 in one game. The cumulative loss of those and the bpt from the two Rep Scientists is quite a hit. It adds more turns to get Biology, although I suppose that's balanced out by having more turns to get the Forest Preserves laid down.
     
  14. CreeDakota

    CreeDakota King

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    I have often delayed Sci MEthod as well. The trade off is that you end up gaining alot of production boosting techs like railroad and assembly line early. just as good for most games as biology or state property.
     
  15. Ormur

    Ormur Prince

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    It's pretty annoying if you're teching decently but not leapfrogging the AI. There are lots of AIs that tend to beeline Scientific Method and then either Communism and Physics. So if you want those free specialists you have to get it quite early.

    If I'm ahead and want that specialist I try to keep tabs on when they start Physics and then rush ahead of them. They're usually willing to trade Scientific Method so it's only a question of getting Physics faster.

    Otherwise I just pick up Steam Power, Steel and sometimes even Assembly Line and then use some of that as trade fodder for getting Communism and Physics, but delaying Biology can hurt a bit.
     
  16. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    It is quite common for my main 2-3 science cities to have 3-5 monastaries on the way to Alpha. So I delay Sci Meth as long as possible. Once the hammer techs are online then head the Physics path. The drop in science is very visible at sci method and if I am not building commerce/scince with the aid of coal powered cities, the drop is even more pronounced. So for me for a Space game, the delay route is best. Also work well on monger games too. Who need blimps when you can have cannons and infantry :).
     
  17. JammerUno

    JammerUno King

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    @RJM

    No, my calculations assumed you had some specs, not just the NE and the GLib. 14 GPP with the NE and the Glib means your NE site is running maybe one spec, in which case I doubt pacifism is a good choice.

    And building Sankore makes a huge difference, as does having the AP in a well spread religion, both of which aren't given. It's basically a worst case scenario, losing both hammers, beakers and multipliers, where you normally would just lose multipliers.

    And 36 bpt from two scientists? That either means a 500% bonus on beakers or representation, which in turn means lots of farms, which should make bio worthwile.
     
  18. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Please tell me it was a typo or brain fart when you said you got 1k:hammers: worth of infrastructure before Alphabet...
     
  19. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    I sort of assumed he meant Alpha Centauri...
     
  20. RJM

    RJM Prince

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    You may be right about pacifism. I like spiritual leaders so that I can dip in and out of civics, but I usually stick to pacifism once established. In this case, Free religion would have given me about 20 bpt extra, but my next GP increases to 27 turns. I would lose most of the benefit of Sankore, but that's already included in the calculation. The lack of specialists in my NE city may be down to low population; I think I was recovering from whipping the Taj Mahal. Possibly it would have been better to build this somewhere else.

    I usually build Sankore and expect to get it more than 3 out of 4 times; paper is on route to Education (for universities and Oxford) and Liberalism, both of which I prioritise.

    The save I used to experiment with certainly wasn't chosen as a worst case scenario - it was the first old save I could find in which I could research SM. As far as the AP religion is concerned, that was just the luck of the draw, but I find it is spread to one of my cities most of the time.

    I was running representation. I usually choose Nationalism as my free tech and then go for Constitution because of the benefit of Representation. Not sure why you think that means a lot of farms. In this case I seem to have less than 1 farm per city, which is probably unusually few and hence why in this case bio didn't give me much benefit.
     

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