Deleting buildings

[vivalamexico]

So you trade +1 culture for +1 gold? That is pretty bad in my opinion, out of all the yields, in the early game, gold comes last. If you factor in the hammer cost it becomes even worse, since you basically waste a lot of the advantage of legalism (the free hammers).

:facepalm:
Didn't think this through. My bad

 

[beetle]

Didn't think this through. My bad

Don't feel bad, as you are not alone. Judging from these forums, deleting the hard built monument right before Legalism is a fairly popular tactic. But I agree with claudiupb that it is shortsighted.

 

[Browd]

I don't think it's all that popular a "tactic". I, for one, think it is just a way of wasting hammers (better to just skip building a monument in the first place) and a crappy way of generating a trivial amount of gold.

 

[Solutionfinder]

Amphitheaters are a total waste and the only reason to build them is because opera houses need them. So if you need the opera house, you can safely delete the amphitheater after that. The +1 culture is minuscule, and you won't really be storing any great works of writing in them anyway. You already have 4 slots in Heroic Epic, National Epic and Oxford, but it's better off to bulb the great writers anyway.

That is just silly thing to do. What about when you get great works from AI and while the city is in the resistance you can`t work them or if you decide to raze them. Where to store them then? I know I know in the national wonders right? But what about your own great works? What happens to them?

Also if you need a certain city to grab a tile faster, how to boost it then if it has no national wonder? Not to mention 1+ culture which can add to 2+ from monuments and 1+ from Opera houses and gives you 1+ bonus if you have Sistine Chapel. What a waste of culture I say...

 

[Browd]

I would usually keep the amphitheaters and opera houses (even though their slots are useless in nearly every game), but that's only because gold becomes so plentiful in the game that saving 1 gpt almost isn't worth the effort, but 1 cpt is (however, de minimis that amount is) always welcome. But, in the ordinary course, I won't have any (sometimes maybe 1) Great Works of Writing (the only kind of Great Works that go in an amphitheater). Yes, I may acquire some through conquest, but frankly any plan that does not center on bulbing Great Writers for large bursts of culture seems like a bad plan to me, even in many (if not most) culture games (I prefer to use Great Artists and artifacts for Great Work slots, rather than Great Works of Writing).

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

This is just nitpicky, everyone knows what he means.

No reason to confuse people into thinking that you can't just instantly get culture from a GW, ie: "bulb"

What do you guys mean by 'bulbing'?

destroyed

I like my amphitheatres. But I am always scrounging for gold, even working my luxuries.
One question we could pose is, do you sell your barracks in an advanced era start game? Its hammer cost can be significantly subsidized by the era modifier, making it trivial to rebuild in the Palace city , I am thinking, when you want Heroic Epic. And advanced era starts begin with a deficit.

 

[Solutionfinder]

I would usually keep the amphitheaters and opera houses (even though their slots are useless in nearly every game), but that's only because gold becomes so plentiful in the game that saving 1 gpt almost isn't worth the effort, but 1 cpt is (however, de minimis that amount is) always welcome. But, in the ordinary course, I won't have any (sometimes maybe 1) Great Works of Writing (the only kind of Great Works that go in an amphitheater). Yes, I may acquire some through conquest, but frankly any plan that does not center on bulbing Great Writers for large bursts of culture seems like a bad plan to me, even in many (if not most) culture games (I prefer to use Great Artists and artifacts for Great Work slots, rather than Great Works of Writing).

I used to do it this way but having extra early toursim works just fine on putting cultural pressure on AI. Early bulbs with low bursts is not a good plan either if you ask me. Late in game things change of course.

 

[beetle]

But, in the ordinary course, I won't have any (sometimes maybe 1) Great Works of Writing (the only kind of Great Works that go in an amphitheater).

I understand the logic of zero and two (to theme Oxford), but why one?

Early bulbs with low bursts is not a good plan either if you ask me.

So long as you are smart about Great Writer bulbs -- by which I mean waiting until ten turns of a Golden Age have passed -- that early “low burst” is still at relative maximum, still earns you the same percentage portion of an SP, and also still helps staves off early tourism influence. So why not bulb GW early?

 

[Browd]

Eh, actually it's almost always zero, but I can't say that's true 100% of the time, so I said 1 (after all, I have misclicked many a time and generated a GWoW by mistake....). I Originally wrote "1 or 2", but couldn't recall the last time I did 2, so I cut it back to 1. Frankly, I can't recall every striving for theming bonuses for GWs of Writing, at least since shortly after BNW was released (before I came to fully realize the power of culture bulbing).

Point is, I (personally) wouldn't pay a farthing (is that still a thing?) for a GW of Writing slot.

 

[claudiupb]

That is just silly thing to do. What about when you get great works from AI and while the city is in the resistance you can`t work them or if you decide to raze them. Where to store them then? I know I know in the national wonders right? But what about your own great works? What happens to them?

Also if you need a certain city to grab a tile faster, how to boost it then if it has no national wonder? Not to mention 1+ culture which can add to 2+ from monuments and 1+ from Opera houses and gives you 1+ bonus if you have Sistine Chapel. What a waste of culture I say...

It's surely not optimal, but then again selling buildings isn't really optimal, unless you are approaching the end of the game.

If however you have money trouble, you can safely delete amphitheaters form mid game forward. When your SP cost 500-1000 culture, I don't think losing 4-8 culture per turn would matter that much. If you have Sistine Chapel you probably have more to lose and things should be evaluated (but even so you only lose more than 1 CPT if the city produces a CPT which is a multiple of 4, because that 25% gets rounded down).

Regarding the slots for great works of writing, it is very rare you actually don't have a spot for the great Works of Writing, especially since you shouldn't be producing any yourself (unless you aim CV). Maybe produce one great work, if you get a great writer super early (if you have 20 CPT and get a great work that is a 10% increase so it is significant at the time, but fades pretty fast). Otherwise you should just keep them and bulb them when you have a decent CPT output to burn trough ideology or rationalism, etc. You may even save them to bulb during the WF bonus.

For cultural border growth you will need an additional source of culture (probably from religion), because otherwise it will be too slow and you still end up buying a lot of tiles.

 

[sugerdady87]

I would usually keep the amphitheaters and opera houses (even though their slots are useless in nearly every game), but that's only because gold becomes so plentiful in the game that saving 1 gpt almost isn't worth the effort, but 1 cpt is (however, de minimis that amount is) always welcome. But, in the ordinary course, I won't have any (sometimes maybe 1) Great Works of Writing (the only kind of Great Works that go in an amphitheater). Yes, I may acquire some through conquest, but frankly any plan that does not center on bulbing Great Writers for large bursts of culture seems like a bad plan to me, even in many (if not most) culture games (I prefer to use Great Artists and artifacts for Great Work slots, rather than Great Works of Writing).

Do you generate enough tourism from artifacts and arts to deal with the cultural pressure of other Civs?

I'm playing a game with India now and I'll give the bulbing a try. Defending against pressure with your own tourism is much more effective than with culture, that's why I've always created great works with writers.

 

[Volcanon]

You're stuck building amphitheatres and opera houses because the actually good culture buildings (towers and museums) have them as pre-reqs. Not much point in deleting them when they help you not lose and get you policies even if they cost too many hammers.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I sell buildings in cities I'm currently razing. Rarely I sell science buildings if I'm in a late game economic pinch and I don't need science anymore

 

[Solutionfinder]

So long as you are smart about Great Writer bulbs -- by which I mean waiting until ten turns of a Golden Age have passed -- that early “low burst” is still at relative maximum, still earns you the same percentage portion of an SP, and also still helps staves off early tourism influence. So why not bulb GW early?

It helps you to run away but it doesn`t help your pressure over AI which can be handy as you approach ideologies. In my opinion it is worth it, at least early game, until you can get more works from AI.

It's surely not optimal, but then again selling buildings isn't really optimal, unless you are approaching the end of the game.

If however you have money trouble, you can safely delete amphitheaters form mid game forward. When your SP cost 500-1000 culture, I don't think losing 4-8 culture per turn would matter that much. If you have Sistine Chapel you probably have more to lose and things should be evaluated (but even so you only lose more than 1 CPT if the city produces a CPT which is a multiple of 4, because that 25% gets rounded down).

Regarding the slots for great works of writing, it is very rare you actually don't have a spot for the great Works of Writing, especially since you shouldn't be producing any yourself (unless you aim CV). Maybe produce one great work, if you get a great writer super early (if you have 20 CPT and get a great work that is a 10% increase so it is significant at the time, but fades pretty fast). Otherwise you should just keep them and bulb them when you have a decent CPT output to burn trough ideology or rationalism, etc. You may even save them to bulb during the WF bonus.

For cultural border growth you will need an additional source of culture (probably from religion), because otherwise it will be too slow and you still end up buying a lot of tiles.

Well I disagree because the base value gets multiplied by 25% so 3+ culture addition to base value from filled amphitheater does matter. It helps a lot in aquiring tiles early in game. Saves you a lot of gold too. Of course you are going to buy most important tiles like unique lux res or important strategic res but good dirt in close proximity to AI is also important and you will save a lot of gold getting those under your roof.

Yeah late in game I also bulb them because I have plenty of works, culture and tourism output by then but I expend at least first 4, 2 for Oxford and 2 for cities that need them most. Religious buildings are always welcome but you don`t always have that option.

 

[danaphanous]

I usually create the writer works for the first 2 writers. It often means a theming bonus later, and it's hard to pass up +2 culture and tourism as early as they come. Saving them till after world fair would mean they cost me maintenance all game and I don't get that extra 4 culture to help through policies back when it really matters. Plus the 4 extra early tourism if I can discover everyone early is half the work on getting exotic influence on all the other civs. It means I can choose my ideology with impunity as long as I get a bit more here and there and pick up a few archaelogists. I will not be convinced saving ALL the writers is good practice as early culture (back when it is harder to come by) is worth a lot more then a bunch later when you already are getting policies very quickly. By that point the game is ending in 100 turns or so anyway, maybe less. I'm concerned with getting through the early policies as quick as possible as they get my empire off the ground but later my problem is more I've finished everything I care about and there's nothing else I really even want that much in terms of policies. Pretty much every game with my strategy I finish 2 full trees before ideologies and usually have an extra point to put in a 3rd tree. Then over industrial/modern with the world fair boost I can get all the ideology tenets I want. Then atomic/info I have to choose other trees that don't help me so much. Saving the writers would mean finishing those 1st and 2nd trees slower and deferring the bonus to a date when I'm already getting more policies then I can spend usefully it feels like. It also means that on immortal/deity I am not free to choose whatever ideology I like thus either don't get as many free early adopter tenets or suffer unhappiness when I do as the culture AI invariably pick what you don't. Both basically cancels the claimed benefit of saving writers 1&2. Maybe it works well some games but I can't see how reliably given how a few AI are spamming great works and will be exotic on you by ideologies. I do save writer 3 & 4 for bulbing as the opportunity cost is less and usually it makes sense. It can mean a quick 3rd policy for your ideology tree which really gets your empire going!

 

[beetle]

Pretty much every game with my strategy I finish 2 full trees before ideologies and usually have an extra point to put in a 3rd tree.

That strikes me as exceptional! Is this at Deity? Do most people have that kind of success?

The usual pattern I experience is:

Opening tree -> “spare” tree opened, probably one pick there, but maybe two -> open Rationalism plus one or two more picks -> open Ideology -> work Ideology to first 2nd tier pick -> work Rationalism for three best picks -> start filling in Ideology -> finish Rationalism for Satellites (or Internet, or Globalization, depending on VC) -> finish filling out Ideology -> back to spare tree started after Opening tree, until VC. I often do not finish this spare tree.

Is that terrible or typical?

 

[danaphanous]

I don't know what's typical. This is cited from many immortal games but my strategy would probably still work the same on Deity as it doesn't involve early war or tech lead. I prioritize getting those guilds up faster than the normal player, run them constantly, and create works from the first ones early so I have more earlier culture. I also usually try to work culture in somehow from my religion. If I can't get a cultural RB I usually buy the AI's. Thinking about it I get a lot of culture from religion so that's probably the big difference. You get a good culture religion and the effect is close to Poland's UA and I do tend to play the Celts and other religious civs more often.

I may be mistaken that I'm fully finished with the 2nd tree by ideologies ALL games, especially if I experience what you say where I have to put a policy in a filler tree because I'm not a high enough era. But I'm pretty sure I have at least 4 points to put in before ideologies into the second tree and on a good religious/wide game finish both. This might be more difficult if I was bulleting through the science but I like the slower more empire-based games and I'm finished SV around T280 at best as a result. If you are running tradition and rapid science you'd probably experience what you described depending on how many wonders you were able to score and how good your religion was. Sistine Chapel and timing to World's Fair makes a big difference too in midgame policies. On immortal I can pretty reliably get Sistine and sometimes Oracle too, which is 2-3 extra policies.

So the difference is probably down to playstyle and empire design, not skill here.

My current strategy involves: liberty-->commerce-->rationalism (filler patronage)
I've also messed around with Liberty-->Piety-->Rationalism (no filler required)

My last game as Ethiopia I tried tradition due to their UA and avoided the religious buildings, opting instead for gold, growth, and production as an experiment. I did get less policies but due to the wonderspamming religious community allowed it was still above average. I'd have to play a civ with no religious advantages on Deity to see if I can do better then you describe. (which is my planned next game actually!)

 

[Solutionfinder]

Yeah I can confirm that it works on Deity also and it works without religion too. All you need to do is to work all guilds and use em for great works early on. Bonuses from religion or Sistine may get you an additional SP, especially if you went for world`s fair.

Of course I will go for religion even if it`s the last religion avaliable in case of a decent pantheon. Choral music should still be avaliable. Not in one game it was ever taken before all other religions have enhanced their beliefs. And since you have gone liberty and have at least 6 cities it`s 12 additional culture we are talking about...add to that Sistine which should be avaliable most of the time and great works and your culture is massive already in renaissance era. Just make sure to use missionary to spread religion to your other cities

It may not be the best plan but it works just fine...

 

[Solutionfinder]

Not to mention a bonus for having spread your religion to nearby CS but in many cases it`s better letting AI convert your cities so you can buy better buildings with faith. It all depends on a situation really.