Denniz's 20K-Small-Chieftan

[Denniz]

New Map Setting for this one: Bablyon, Pangaea 70%, Normal, Temperate, 4 Billion, Barbs=Restless, 3 Opponents (Greece, Byzantines, France).
[I found that 5 Scientific Civs to be too much competition so I started over with new Civs and settings]

3 Cow Start

1430 AD 20K City

Culture - 5 SGL & 2 MGL

World Map

 

[killercane]

Im surprised you used the first SGL on the Colossus, rather than build the Colossus, then use the SGL on the Library, followed by the regular library, and then get all three going pre-2000 BCish. I havent done the math so I dont know whats best.

 

[LulThyme]

What about Pyramids! Thats the whole point of getting that first SGL!
You get 4 culture right from the start + granaries!!
Rush pyramids, build temple, colossus, library, rush great library, all that around 1500 BC!! (or switch the orders, depending on when you got the 2nd SGL)
How can 5 civs be too much competition at Chieftain?

 

[killercane]

True, but he was playing against France so he didnt get the SGL from Masonry. He would need to find em and trade for it quickly, I cant tell from the map where they started at.

 

[superslug]

LulThyme really hit the nail on the head about Pyramids. Selecting/playing Industrious AI's aren't absolutely a bad idea, but it is inefficient. Aside from the 4cpt for the Pyramids, it makes it much easier to set up a settler factory with the second city. The faster your non20k towns can grow/expand, the faster you can get to a 4 turn tech pace.

 

[Denniz]

All good points. I never thought through what would happen if I got a really early SGL.

@superslug & @LulThyme - I will have to plan my setup a little better for the "Pyramid-Leader Jumpstart".

I got this one off my first tech (pottery) in 3500BC. It was either hold it until I found a trade or wait until I could self research. I felt that 3cpt, the commerce bonus in 3300BC and the chance for another SGL was worth more than an undetermined wait for masonry. Should I have researched masonry and waited for Pryamids?

Once I got the second one before 1000BC, I had to play the game out.

1430AD isn't a bad date. There is no doubt I could have done better with all those SGLs. But, even with all the SGL luck I had, they mostly came at poor times, wonder-wise. What's conventional wisdom on using SGLs? I was going by the principle that some cpt now is better than a little bit more later since you always have a chance to get another SGL once you use it.

@killercane - France was to the SW, I didn't meet them until 1750BC. I met the Greeks in 3150BC. I got masonry from them in 2170BC. Literature was way too far in the future to wait for.

 

[Gyathaar]

(...) and the chance for another SGL was worth more than an undetermined wait for masonry.

I was going by the principle that some cpt now is better than a little bit more later since you always have a chance to get another SGL once you use it.

You always have a chance for another SGL, no matter if you use the one you have or not

 

[Methos]

You always have a chance for another SGL, no matter if you use the one you have or not

Really? You mean you could stockpile them if you wanted too? Not that I would, just didn't realize you could have more than one at a time.

 

[superslug]

Really? You mean you could stockpile them if you wanted too? Not that I would, just didn't realize you could have more than one at a time.

That's correct. There have been rare instances where someone getting the free tech from Philosophy also gets two SGL's. Before stockpiling though, it's best to remember that while you can still get SGL's, you can't get MGL's while you have an active SGL.

 

[LulThyme]

All good points. I never thought through what would happen if I got a really early SGL.

@superslug & @LulThyme - I will have to plan my setup a little better for the "Pyramid-Leader Jumpstart".

I got this one off my first tech (pottery) in 3500BC. It was either hold it until I found a trade or wait until I could self research. I felt that 3cpt, the commerce bonus in 3300BC and the chance for another SGL was worth more than an undetermined wait for masonry. Should I have researched masonry and waited for Pryamids?

Once I got the second one before 1000BC, I had to play the game out.

1430AD isn't a bad date. There is no doubt I could have done better with all those SGLs. But, even with all the SGL luck I had, they mostly came at poor times, wonder-wise. What's conventional wisdom on using SGLs? I was going by the principle that some cpt now is better than a little bit more later since you always have a chance to get another SGL once you use it.

Its hard to say what you should have done in this particular case, but Im almost certain waiting for masonry would have been better. Colossus is easy to build by hand.
Now as slug said, in future games, one way to make sure this doesnt happen is not to take ind civs and research masonry first (note there are other ways to do this depending on map settings).

You are right thats its good not to wait TOO much to use the SGLs, but that doesnt mean you have to use them right now.
A good rule of thumb would be, if you have more than maybe 2-3 turns of shield, try and finish something pretty useful, then use the SGL on whatever gives most cpt, something expensive.
Good candidates are : Pyramids, Great Library, Toa in AA, Sistine, Js Bach, Shakespeare in Middle Ages.
Now, managing your 20K city is all you have to do in these games, so my rule of thumb is DO NOT use rule of thumbs.
When I have to make such a decision, I usually take a paper and write out what would happen, and compare them...

Btw I dont see why you say your SGLs came at a bad time.
The rule of thumb here is earlier is better.
You got 2 in early Ancient Age, and one in Middle Age.
Thats not bad at all, although the others were somewhat late I agree.
2 in AA means a game will be great usually.

 

[Denniz]

You always have a chance for another SGL, no matter if you use the one you have or not

That's correct. There have been rare instances where someone getting the free tech from Philosophy also gets two SGL's. Before stockpiling though, it's best to remember that while you can still get SGL's, you can't get MGL's while you have an active SGL.

Wow. Now there is something I didn't know. I thought the rule was only one Leader at a time. I wonder how many people are unaware of this little tidbit.

 

[LulThyme]

Yes, I thought everybody knew, but in the recent weeks, many ppl have been coming out of the closet with regards to knowing this, including Moonsinger...

 

[Denniz]

Now, managing your 20K city is all you have to do in these games, so my rule of thumb is DO NOT use rule of thumbs.
When I have to make such a decision, I usually take a paper and write out what would happen, and compare them...

Well, I went back and checked in the saves.

On purely cuture point basis, if I had waited for Masonry, I would have had to wait until 2850 BC (12 turns). [Myst took that long on 100% and they both said 14 turns in 3500AD.]

Assuming I did nothing until I could rush Pyramids and then built Colossus next. [Oracle had about 200 shields stored in 1950 BC.] Both would exist and have their 1000 year doubling by 1850 BC.

I summed up the cpt under both scenarios to that point. The numbers came up: Colossus=376, Pyramids=380. It was probably a wash in terms of cpt.

Even building the temple early wouldn't added that much. I would have need to pick up 130 points to finish just one turn earlier. Or something like 300 points to finish two turns earlier.

Now, between Colossus and Pyramids, we get pop growth vs. revenue. Both have some impact, but it is hard to calculate how things would have been different. That early, the snowball is pretty small and hasn't got a lot of momentum yet on it's rolll down the hill, if you know what I mean.

Never say never. That early Pyramids is better than Colossus is sort of a rule of thumb itself.

Btw I dont see why you say your SGLs came at a bad time.

The first one, as we know, caught me unprepared.

The 3rd one I used to build Pyramids as that was the the highest cpt I had. Sistines was done and I had neither the Theatre or Bach's reserched yet.

The 4rd one I used on a 2 cpt wonder as nothing else was available.

Only ToA (2nd) and Sufferage (5th) hit at the good wonder availibility time.

 

[LulThyme]

Well let me put it this way.
Once punkbass taught me about using firs tech SGL masonry to rush pyramids, I increased my high scores from the high 1400s at the time to the high 1300s just with that change...
IT IS VERY STRONG
4 cpt at around 3200 BC plus granary in all cities!
Timing is perfect, usually just around when you finish your temple, and if you are going for the starts, you probably got a settler from a hut, so you are starting on colossus, so by 2200 bc you got pyramids, colossus temple, your city is around size 9 and you almost have your 12 improved tiles.

In your particular case :
Now I dont know why you assume you wouldnt do anything while waiting for pyramids.
You could have built at minimum 2 warriors to speed up techs (by reducing luxuries), and actually, actual proposal was build colossus by hand, then rush pyramids.
Run that by the numbers, Im sur youll see its strong, and thats the way you get the benefits for both the fastest

 

[Denniz]

Well, I went back to the drawing board. Replaced France with England. I've started about a dozen but with no great progress moved on after a few 1000 years.

I finally finish a promising 4 Cow start with a SGL in time to rush GL. No other SGLs though. With the extra production, I was able to get a 1465AD date. That was dispite a GA before rebublic and a couple of wasteful switches to better wonders when there were more shields in the bin that needed.

I got two on small chieftan, so time to move on to something else. I have to decide what I want to change difficult or map. Of course, I am getting a little tired with 20K, so I might switch to another VC for a change.