Der Spiegel: Hurray! The West is capitulating!

[Shaihulud]

Now, now, everyone should know by now that Muslims as a whole is a more troublesome group than usual. All we have to do is look at examples across the globe,to know that. In Singapore we used to have Muslim problems as well, we give them their sharia laws, but at the same time we control their population through selective immigration, set up state approved Islamic learning centers, but restrict the acess of foreign imams and madrasahs. Theres no constitutional racism, but its much harder for a Muslim to get a job so they inevitably find jobs in the civil sectors another good source of control. In the end the muslims become just like another sector of the population, just more volatile but more care is usually applied to problems dealin with them.

 

[Chieftess]

The way I look at it is this - the Maya were on to something - history repeats itself (maybe or maybe not in precise mathematical cycles - they were the Ancient Greeks of their day in that to some extent). It does seem there are similarities to the world in the 1930s - mostly Xenophobia, and a feeling of pursecution. Only this time, it's on both sides of the fence. Europe, and other countries of the world have problems, or perceived problems with immigration (US, Russia, England, France, Germany - mainly the big players). With the Muslim population increasing in Europe, and exerting their cultural pressure, I wouldn't be surprised if there were an ethno-religious war around the corner in maybe a generation or two.

There already are issues occuring --

Europe's population is declining - in 20 years, many of this generation won't be able to have children because they're simply too old. With an increasing Muslim (and general immigration) population, this fuels xenophobic feelings across Europe (and the world). It's a feeling of "opression" (atleast a perceived view) on the European side. When laws start to change, people may start to protest, then riot over their way of life changing.

Minority feeling opressed (people and/or countries). On the flip side of the coin, you have the Muslim population who are crying oppression, whether it's happening or not. Some Middle Eastern countries could very well develop nukes, and any such super-weapon would make any nation feel bold. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. have even been mentioned to consider developing nukes if Iran does.

China. I've read a few reports of Chinese men raiding other villages to find wives. In fact, 12+ years ago, this was a topic in my highschool Social Studies class when China started the 1-child policy. The main point was that they could wind up causing wars (wether intentional, or simply by international incidents) when men, or soldiers start raiding to seek 'wives'.

Then there's dwindling resources. Several papers have been written on "Water Wars" (I'm not sure if wars will be fought over water just yet, though). But, with China being the late runner into the Industrial Game, they're gonna be using up many resources that Europe, US and Russia once used. Maybe even Brazil and India will wind up doing the same. Especially with the US, China and India using up tons of resources, they may effectively strip the earth bare. Economies would blow up, which in turn usually leads to riots and revolutions (due to bad living conditions, and people overturning the establishment to try and make something better). There was an article somewhere that said we would now need 2 Earths to sufficiently supply resources for every nation. Demand exceeding Supply. (I'm not an economists, but I think that leads to inflation).


If any nation starts to "give in" to the extent that it affects life for everyone, then I think different groups would bound to be springing up to try and reverse the trend.

 

[Katheryn]

You and I must have very different definitions of "treasonous."

Your charge is akin to the inflammatory (and troll-worthy) claims that those who voted democrat in the last election were committing "treason."

Here in Utah, some of my co-religionists occasionally complain that if folks don't like how "We" run things in this state, they should just move elsewhere. We apologize for such people.

Muslim immigrants and citizens have the same right I do to vote their conscience at the ballot box and to advocate for the causes they believe in. When it comes to enacting Sharia, I will advocate and vote against it, because I get to. That's how our system works.

You are making the basic assumption that anyone who wants to immigrate has the right to do so. That is not the case.

There are many who are turned down. To become a citizen, it is necessary to agree to uphold the Constitution. That is a part of the pledge allegiance, which the new citizens are privileged to perform during their ceremony.

I know personally because my sister-in-law, who is Filipino just became a citizen. It has taken her 5 years to do so.

That Constitution promises many things to citizens, however giving foreigners the right to immigrate to America is NOT one of them, and advocating a civil system different than the one given in the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution is treasonous. You are very wrong about that. Also about this: "Muslim immigrants" must be citizens to vote here, and most of the "immigrants" are NOT citizens. They are legal residents.

 

[Katheryn]

The way I look at it is this - the Maya were on to something - history repeats itself (maybe or maybe not in precise mathematical cycles - they were the Ancient Greeks of their day in that to some extent). It does seem there are similarities to the world in the 1930s - mostly Xenophobia, and a feeling of pursecution. Only this time, it's on both sides of the fence. Europe, and other countries of the world have problems, or perceived problems with immigration (US, Russia, England, France, Germany - mainly the big players). With the Muslim population increasing in Europe, and exerting their cultural pressure, I wouldn't be surprised if there were an ethno-religious war around the corner in maybe a generation or two.

There already are issues occuring --

Europe's population is declining - in 20 years, many of this generation won't be able to have children because they're simply too old. With an increasing Muslim (and general immigration) population, this fuels xenophobic feelings across Europe (and the world). It's a feeling of "opression" (atleast a perceived view) on the European side. When laws start to change, people may start to protest, then riot over their way of life changing.

Minority feeling opressed (people and/or countries). On the flip side of the coin, you have the Muslim population who are crying oppression, whether it's happening or not. Some Middle Eastern countries could very well develop nukes, and any such super-weapon would make any nation feel bold. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. have even been mentioned to consider developing nukes if Iran does.

China. I've read a few reports of Chinese men raiding other villages to find wives. In fact, 12+ years ago, this was a topic in my highschool Social Studies class when China started the 1-child policy. The main point was that they could wind up causing wars (wether intentional, or simply by international incidents) when men, or soldiers start raiding to seek 'wives'.

Then there's dwindling resources. Several papers have been written on "Water Wars" (I'm not sure if wars will be fought over water just yet, though). But, with China being the late runner into the Industrial Game, they're gonna be using up many resources that Europe, US and Russia once used. Maybe even Brazil and India will wind up doing the same. Especially with the US, China and India using up tons of resources, they may effectively strip the earth bare. Economies would blow up, which in turn usually leads to riots and revolutions (due to bad living conditions, and people overturning the establishment to try and make something better). There was an article somewhere that said we would now need 2 Earths to sufficiently supply resources for every nation. Demand exceeding Supply. (I'm not an economists, but I think that leads to inflation).


If any nation starts to "give in" to the extent that it affects life for everyone, then I think different groups would bound to be springing up to try and reverse the trend.

You might be interested in the book by Mark Steyne called "America Alone". It is about the demographics in this changing world.

For instance, one of the natural solutions for the problem of China's overwhelmingly male population is the situation in Russia. The population decline is the worst in Russian than anywhere else. The women there abort 7out of every 10 pregnancies. The average lifespan of a man is 58 years old. People there evidently have lost their will to live.

This huge decline just happens to match China's increasing male population. Interesting, coincidence isn't it?

Anyway, there are major natural resources, again another coincidence, right near the Chinese-Russian border. So, they seem to have corresponding needs. Steyne predicts that by the end of the century, you will see these two countries merge.

Japan is in even worse straits. 50% of the women in Japan who are 30 years old and younger are childless. As the population ages, there appears to be no new generation to take care of the vast elderly population. They are investing heavily in robots.

You know, with the alarming demographical information being tabulated these days, I don't think DEMAND for resources will be a problem 20 years down the road. It will be lack of economy, more like, and the inability to care for the elderly.

 

[Tee Kay]

Hate articles like these are what contributed to some of the horrible genocides in the 20th century. I don't want to see the same things occuring in the 21st.

 

[Old Spice]

Too late taillesskangaru, genocide goes on all over the world almost none stop.

 

[Ramius75]

You might be interested in the book by Mark Steyne called "America Alone". It is about the demographics in this changing world.

For instance, one of the natural solutions for the problem of China's overwhelmingly male population is the situation in Russia. The population decline is the worst in Russian than anywhere else. The women there abort 7out of every 10 pregnancies. The average lifespan of a man is 58 years old. People there evidently have lost their will to live.

This huge decline just happens to match China's increasing male population. Interesting, coincidence isn't it?

Anyway, there are major natural resources, again another coincidence, right near the Chinese-Russian border. So, they seem to have corresponding needs. Steyne predicts that by the end of the century, you will see these two countries merge.

Japan is in even worse straits. 50% of the women in Japan who are 30 years old and younger are childless. As the population ages, there appears to be no new generation to take care of the vast elderly population. They are investing heavily in robots.

You know, with the alarming demographical information being tabulated these days, I don't think DEMAND for resources will be a problem 20 years down the road. It will be lack of economy, more like, and the inability to care for the elderly.

interesting book, im having the same idea too not so long ago about Chinese merging with the Russian and migrate to east of the Ural mountains.

but then again its not so simple as to matching needs for needs as equality between the economic are also needed for a merger.
until they can find equality and the need to merge. this isnt going to happen very soon.

I foreseen more mergers within countries in the future if not distance. Eg Singapore merging with Malaysia and then the whole SEA. Taiwan with China. Iraq with Iran. An African Union. USA with Canada. And the South America into another Union.

 

[Tee Kay]

Too late taillesskangaru, genocide goes on all over the world almost none stop.

So? It's not too late to stop some future genocides.

We must stop people who incites hatred against others before its too late.

 

[Old Spice]

You can beat those that are willing to kill you to enforce there beliefs.

 

[aussieboy]

Islam itself is not dangerous. A good deal (but nowhere near the majority) of Muslims are dangerous. But the majority just want to live their lives out in peace and relative quiet.

As for the European question, perhaps we shoulld, as the West, strive to co-opt them more stridently, for example, making learning the local language to be a must for citizenship.

 

[Katheryn]

Hate articles like these are what contributed to some of the horrible genocides in the 20th century. I don't want to see the same things occuring in the 21st.

I don't see any hate at all.

It is better to be prepared than anything else.

It is not so much the "Muslim" religion that is the problem in Europe as much as the cultural "tribal" culture. America has a third world immigration into the U.S. by way of Mexico, and these have health, poverty and crime issues as well. Still, we don't have to worry so much about anti-Americanism that comes in with it. However, the post-colonialism anger that accompanies the immigrants to Europe is more what fuels the problems there, and Islam is used more as a political ideology, than a religion. I am reading a new book called, "The Looming Tower" and it goes into exhaustive biographies of Sayeed Qutb, Abdullah Azzam, Ayman al Zawahiri, from the Muslim Brotherhood, who later worked with with Al Qaeda. They grew up during the British colonization of Egypt and Pakistan, and seemed to have a huge beef about that.

They feel like they need to prove to someone (themselves maybe) that their way of life is superior to the same English (western) culture they were brought up believing to be so superior to their own, the one their parents so marvelled at. It explains alot. Still, that doesn't mitigate the fact that Europe has a problem on it's hands.

 

[Katheryn]

Islam itself is not dangerous. A good deal (but nowhere near the majority) of Muslims are dangerous. But the majority just want to live their lives out in peace and relative quiet.

As for the European question, perhaps we shoulld, as the West, strive to co-opt them more stridently, for example, making learning the local language to be a must for citizenship.

It's not so much the religion being imported as the customs of the rural areas they come from.

The veil is not a religious tradition of Islam as much as it is sticking a finger in the westerner's eyes. The veil was rarely seen in Egypt until recently.

I have posted here before a passionate article from Queen Rania of Jordan about the lack of any direct command to wear the veil. It is simply not a religious edict. It has been the custom of rural areas of Arabia, Pakistan (India at one time) but it is tribal tradition, not religion.

In any case, polygamy is a detestable practice and should be banned from Western societies who have as a basic value the concept of equality between the sexes.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

@ Chieftess - Great analysis.

I don't see China's problem as being on the same level as the other's though, and I never have agreed with the 'China as a threat to the West' view. China is moving toward capitalism at breakneck speed and with each passing day relies more and more upon the West as an outlet for it's production. If they do have issues as you mentioned it should be localized rather than global.

If we can solve the energy generation issue, we solve the water issue too. With electricity all the water you ever wanted is in the Oceans waiting to be cleaned and made pure for use. I don't have an exact answer, maybe more next-generation nuclear plants? Maybe solar will finally become affordable? I read somewhere that if the state of New Mexico were covered in solar panels they could supply the entire planet's energy needs. Hopefully the water issue is a passing false scare we can cure with technology.

Every generation feels threatened by immigrants, it's human nature. The Poles, Irish and Italians weren't warmly welcomed here either. Then the Vietnamese, Koreans, etc. and currently the Hispanics. The longer they stay the more "American" they become, and the more interbred we become. I don't see any race war in the US. There would be too many sides and way too many people unsure what side to be on at all, if any.

Can't speak for Europe and the Muslims there, but that may well be the real hotspot to come. We've got some sharp people from there on the forum, maybe they can give us their views on the subject.

 

[Katheryn]

So? It's not too late to stop some future genocides.

We must stop people who incites hatred against others before its too late.

See, this is exactly the wrong attitude.

In America we understand the concept of "the public square".

It is healthy to debate ideas. To come to opinions by discussing our beliefs, questioning them, analyzing how we come to them.

It is a legitimate question to ask: Who added the three pictures to the Denmark cartoons? If the mobs were truly angry because they thought the newspaper depicted Mohammed as a pig, then why is there no investigation to find out WHY this deception occurred?

You cannot have read the article because you missed the point. The author is asking this question, which escaped you (see, you prejudged this article, assuming it was 'antimuslim', which is not the case).

The question is this: Is the European culture worth fighting for? If you go to the original article, there is a picture of a grotesquely implanted with fake boobies girl, with a bikini on, flirting with a couple of guys.

Is this worth fighting for? Maybe it is not. Maybe the freedom to run wild isn't something anyone is worth fighting to keep. Maybe since the profligate life is not even worth having babies to continue, and no one wants to hand this over to their progeny for safe keeping, maybe no one cares if there is a next generation or not.

 

[Yeeek]

maybe they can give us their views on the subject.

Its bullcrap, what else is new?

I can't deny the facts that there are islamist fundies over here but they are a real minority. All the people i know in person who are from arabic origins/muslims do not plot at night to take over the world.

 

[Katheryn]

@ Chieftess - Great analysis.

I don't see China's problem as being on the same level as the other's though, and I never have agreed with the 'China as a threat to the West' view. China is moving toward capitalism at breakneck speed and with each passing day relies more and more upon the West as an outlet for it's production. If they do have issues as you mentioned it should be localized rather than global.

If we can solve the energy generation issue, we solve the water issue too. With electricity all the water you ever wanted is in the Oceans waiting to be cleaned and made pure for use. I don't have an exact answer, maybe more next-generation nuclear plants? Maybe solar will finally become affordable? I read somewhere that if the state of New Mexico were covered in solar panels they could supply the entire planet's energy needs. Hopefully the water issue is a passing false scare we can cure with technology.

Every generation feels threatened by immigrants, it's human nature. The Poles, Irish and Italians weren't warmly welcomed here either. Then the Vietnamese, Koreans, etc. and currently the Hispanics. The longer they stay the more "American" they become, and the more interbred we become. I don't see any race war in the US. There would be too many sides and way too many people unsure what side to be on at all, if any.

Can't speak for Europe and the Muslims there, but that may well be the real hotspot to come. We've got some sharp people from there on the forum, maybe they can give us their views on the subject.

I agree that I don't see China as such a large problem globally. Russia may have a problem, as well as her other neighbors, but they may actually solve each others' problems in any case.

I think you are somewhat misled about the issue of immigration today, however. The newest immigrants have a bit of a chip on their shoulder that earlier immigrants never had. Also, you are confusing legal immigrants with illegal immigrants.

For instance, I can promise you that each and every immigrant that came from Ireland and Italy had a TB test. If they were not in good health, they were not allowed into this country. They were not allowed to flood into this country willy nilly. Americans have no problem with immigration, but only LEGAL immigration. It is ILLEGAL immigration that is swamping the schools, the hospitals, the neighborhoods, that are driving down wages.

There is a virtual war going on in LA right now between illegal Hispanic gangs and blacks. It is on local radio all day. It is riots in the prisons, and terrible gang violence on the streets. Border patrol and National Guard are having an awful time with armed drug smugglers. Dana Rohrbacher just called Bush a "disgrace" because he won't pardon two Border Patrol who received 11 and 12 years in JAIL for shooting an armed drug smuggler who was coming into the country with 700 pounds of drugs. Uh, yeah! It is bad.

And the concept that the Islamic terrorism is being done by new immigrants, and not by local population is just wrong. The kids being radicalized are second generation, they were brought up with video games and soccer. They are not assimulating. That is a concept that has been proven very wrong. They get more radical, not less.

 

[Katheryn]

Its bullcrap, what else is new?

I can't deny the facts that there are islamist fundies over here but they are a real minority. All the people i know in person who are from arabic origins/muslims do not plot at night to take over the world.

Can you explain to us why there are "no go zones" for firefighters and parametics that count up to 750? And why the police chief says there is a "permanent intifada" in France? I also read that the Prime Minister was told by the mufti that he couldn't meet with him in his neighborhood, that it was holy ground and a non-Muslim couldn't go there. How is that possible?

Just curious.

 

[Tee Kay]

Dear Katheryn.

You probably didn't see the article the way I do. What I see in this article, and in the way that the author have written it, is an attempt to create suspicion and fear of Muslims, and the illusion that European culture is threatened by the march of Islam.

I'm all for freedom of speech, but this sort of article can lead to violent reactions, which is why I'm opposed to it.

Take this exempt for instances:

"Nowadays acts of terrorism are not committed for their own sake, but in the name of an ideology one could call Nazi-Islamism," Romanian-American author Norman Manea told the German daily Die Welt in March 2004. The only difference, in Manea's view, is "that this ideology invokes a religion, whereas the Nazis were mythical without being religious." Manea believes that what he calls a "World War III" has already begun. "The Europeans are putting off the recognition -- as they did in the 1930s -- of the tremendous tragedy that awaits them and that has, in fact, already arrived."

This sounds like an extreme exaggeration, conjuring up visions of a Day of Judgment, of an Apocalypse Now! Of course, in 1938 hardly anyone could have imagined where the policy of appeasing the Nazis would lead. History does not repeat itself, and yet there are parallels that do not bode well. The willingness to submit to self-deception is as widespread today as it was in the years leading up to World War II.

He compared the situation in Europe to a lead up to a World War. Now, I don't live in Europe but I don't think that's a realistic view as of now. But if the media constantly hammer this sort of thing into people's head, who knows?


Regarding post 37, I'm going to ask you for evidence to back up your claims.

 

[Bad Player]

One has to just look at Singapore at the Danish cartoon crisis. Nothing. no riot, no protest except a mere few who complain, but there is nothing.

This is what Muslims should be doing. Yes the cartoons were insulting HOWEVER the riots etc were unacceptable and the *****-footing by many governments was shameful.



EDIT: cat-footing... ugh.

 

[Bad Player]

You might be interested in the book by Mark Steyne called "America Alone". It is about the demographics in this changing world.

For instance, one of the natural solutions for the problem of China's overwhelmingly male population is the situation in Russia. The population decline is the worst in Russian than anywhere else. The women there abort 7out of every 10 pregnancies. The average lifespan of a man is 58 years old. People there evidently have lost their will to live.

This huge decline just happens to match China's increasing male population. Interesting, coincidence isn't it?

Anyway, there are major natural resources, again another coincidence, right near the Chinese-Russian border. So, they seem to have corresponding needs. Steyne predicts that by the end of the century, you will see these two countries merge.

Japan is in even worse straits. 50% of the women in Japan who are 30 years old and younger are childless. As the population ages, there appears to be no new generation to take care of the vast elderly population. They are investing heavily in robots.

You know, with the alarming demographical information being tabulated these days, I don't think DEMAND for resources will be a problem 20 years down the road. It will be lack of economy, more like, and the inability to care for the elderly.

But one argument against this is that if there is an excess (pardon the phrase) of women in Russia now then they will be old women by the time China has lots more men than women (44 million more IIRC). They won't want old women for wives! Nor will there be 44 million spare women in Russia for them - more likely a few hundred thousand at most. Additionally Russia is rather xenophobic and this may cause problems with that too.