Der Spiegel: Hurray! The West is capitulating!

[Yeeek]

Can you explain to us why there are "no go zones" for firefighters and parametics that count up to 750? And why the police chief says there is a "permanent intifada" in France? I also read that the Prime Minister was told by the mufti that he couldn't meet with him in his neighborhood, that it was holy ground and a non-Muslim couldn't go there. How is that possible?

Just curious.

Very much like the facts that there are some aera in the US where you can catch a bullet on the fly while you go buy your milk at the local supermarket.

I won't deny what you said. There are a few places where youth will gladly ambush firefighters and throw stuff at them. The thing is, i actully read such things are happening in UK aswell and the "ambushers" were not muslim youth compared to france. So it can't be a muslim only thing. At best you could label this phenomena as "I live in a horsehockey place, no one care about me, i'll have my fun the way i want".

Persistent intifida? I'll need a link to read such article. It was probably in reference to some suburbs where police were welcomed with stones.


I am ok with that? No i'm not.

 

[Atlas14]

I think that your failure to understand Islam lies in your lack of knowledge of the Hadiths.

I am guessing it does not, but simply your own bigotry towards a religion opposite of yours is disallowing you to have a worthy opinion.

 

[Atlas14]

Actually I'd argue a bit in the reverse. Having read some of the Hadith of Bukhari IIRC there was some scary stuff there. The terrorist set of Muslims is a small minority and I believe part of their rage is from (e.g.) American (EDIT: And British colonialism as Kathery pointed out in the next post) imperialism as well as some fundamentalist Islamic teachings.

Do you know how easily oral traditions could have been fudged, manipulated, altered? Even sensible Muslims themselves do not put as much value upon them as you seem to be placing.

 

[Winner]

Always running back to the Hitler analogy aren't you? It's getting old. Muslims are not the Nazis, no matter how much you try to paint it otherwise.

No, they're not. And Islam is not Nazism.

Islamism is just another challenge to the Western freedom, that's why I compare it to Nazism and Communism. It is the best analogy available.

But if you want to find parallels to 1930s Europe then here's one for you: we all remember how at that time another religion was being painted as the great threat, don't we?

It was not the religion that was painted as evil, it was the race itself. Jews were seen as a distict race that is inherently evil.

I am not trying to prove that Arabs as a race are evil. I am saying that their culture, their way of life and the religion, that was built upon it, is fundamentally anti-western in the sense it goes against the basics of Western culture. Their values are not compatible with ours, and cannot be.

I'm well aware of what is going on around me, clash of civilisations, old as civilisation itself. It's just that many of us on all sides are tired of this silly game and don't want to play anymore.

Maybe you could finally explain, how do you plan to reconcile individualism with tribalism, secularism with fundamentalism and western law with sharia law. Just for starters.

Maybe once you stop dismissing something just because you're programmed to dismiss anything controversial and politically incorrect, we can have a serious discussion about this topic.

 

[sysyphus]

I am not trying to prove that Arabs as a race are evil. I am saying that their culture, their way of life and the religion, that was built upon it, is fundamentally anti-western in the sense it goes against the basics of Western culture. Their values are not compatible with ours, and cannot be.

Well then you had better get over here to let all of the practising, yet westernised, muslims that I know that they're massively screwing up! I guess they really have no understanding the tennets of their religion, they need you and your expertise on Islam to guide them.

Maybe you could finally explain, how do you plan to reconcile individualism with tribalism, secularism with fundamentalism and western law with sharia law. Just for starters.

No effort required on my part. It is muslims who need to make those reconcilliations in order to live in a liberal society, and as I eluded to above, I already know a number of them who are succeeding. My role is only to applaud and befriend, and I am succeeding.

Maybe once you stop dismissing something just because you're programmed to dismiss anything controversial and politically incorrect, we can have a serious discussion about this topic.

Ah yes, the other refuge of the Islamophobe, attribute my motivation to "political correctness".

I am a very free thinking individual, my views are based solely on my life experience. I have had many fine experiences in the presence of muslim friends, aquaintances and colleagues. Chirstians, jews, sikhs, hindus and atheists too.

You're talking to a very well rounded person here my friend, I have all that it takes to discuss the situation seriously, I'm very well immersed in it. I hope that someday you can join me, I'll even buy you a pint.

 

[Winner]

Well then you had better get over here to let all of the practising, yet westernised, muslims that I know that they're massively screwing up! I guess they really have no understanding the tennets of their religion, they need you and your expertise on Islam to guide them.

Confront them with that. They may ignore certain tenets of their religion, but that doesn't mean these tenets are not present in the religion at all. I guess you've met only westernized Muslims. That makes your personal experience rather useless.

No effort required on my part. It is muslims who need to make those reconcilliations in order to live in a liberal society, and as I eluded to above, I already know a number of them who are succeeding. My role is only to applaud and befriend, and I am succeeding.

Nice, now only if the remaining 95% of other Muslims did the same. I have a feeling your applause alone won't make them tolerant, liberal and westernized. I don't have to remind you that these are the people we have a problem with, do I?

Ah yes, the other refuge of the Islamophobe, attribute my motivation to "political correctness".

It is not a refuge, it is a sad fact. Most of Westerners were raised in politically correct background. Even I also find myself using the PC phrases when I talk to other people about these topics.

I am a very free thinking individual, my views are based solely on my life experience. I have had many fine experiences in the presence of muslim friends, aquaintances and colleagues. Chirstians, jews, sikhs, hindus and atheists too.

Personal experience is a fine thing, but you can't use it to judge the whole group (funny, this is what the other side often tells me). Objectivity has nothing to do with personal experience, especially when talking about things like culture.

You're talking to a very well rounded person here my friend, I have all that it takes to discuss the situation seriously, I'm very well immersed in it. I hope that someday you can join me, I'll even buy you a pint.

Good.

 

[Sidhe]

Islam is just wrong and here's why.

1) They worship a big snake headed god call Umbumbos the grand, but are merely deluding themselves into thinking it is in fact Allah.
2) The fundementalists in particular the radicals who blow themselves up to gain martyrdom in direct contraradiction with the Q'uran, are hailed as heroes and worshipped as the saviours of Islam by all muslims everywhere.
3) They come from oil rich countries, and they keep making us pay large prices for a resource that should be ours by conquest, if there was any justice.
4) The Q'uran is just a guide to war, like Sun Tsu's guide but only more violent, I should know I typed War and the Koran into google and got 654/100000 passages.
5) Cmon most of them are slightly off white right? That must be for some reason.
6)Fox News says so
7)Jesus told me
8)I can't question biggots can I, where would I be if I did that?
9) The Islamics throughout history have done nothing but try to conquer the west since Islam was founded by Umbumbos's servant Mohammed in the 7th century AD.
10) It just is ok
10a2.111) there could be as many as 1.4 billion of the bleeders running around although luckilly it's probably nearer to 700 million, or is it, must be evil if their breeding that quickly and spreading their faith.
11) lalalalalallalalalalalalalalalalalalaalalalal I'm not listening.

 

[Winner]

11) lalalalalallalalalalalalalalalalalalaalalalal I'm not listening.

That's you, Sidhe

 

[Sidhe]

That's you, Sidhe

No winner that most definitely is you, and one day you'll learn that.

 

[sysyphus]

Confront them with that. They may ignore certain tenets of their religion, but that doesn't mean these tenets are not present in the religion at all. I guess you've met only westernized Muslims. That makes your personal experience rather useless.

It is not my place to confront them on such things. If they're adapting their religion to make it possible for us to live in the same space in peace, then I'd hardly call it productive to dictate the tenets of their religion to them.

The book of Leviticus is also very at odds with modern western society, yet Christians and Jews have made the necessary reconcilliations between such scripture and the modern western world, why can't muslims be afforded the same leeway?

I've known conservative muslims as well, so no, my experience is not useless. My point is that Islam is not fundamentally incompatible with western society, as you claim.

Nice, now only if the remaining 95% of other Muslims did the same. I have a feeling your applause alone won't make them tolerant, liberal and westernized. I don't have to remind you that these are the people we have a problem with, do I?

My applause will help keep already westernised muslims in the fold, and it is they who can bring the others around. Though your figure of 95% seems grossly high to me, what do you base that figure on?

It is not a refuge, it is a sad fact. Most of Westerners were raised in politically correct background. Even I also find myself using the PC phrases when I talk to other people about these topics.

Rubbish, I've never been one to hold back an opinion in fear of hitting the wrong nerve. I make my criticisms known to every Muslim, Christian, Jew, Sikh, Hindu and atheist when they arise.

I just don't let those criticisms mould my entire opinion of those religions, because they're not universal to all practitioners.

Personal experience is a fine thing, but you can't use it to judge the whole group (funny, this is what the other side often tells me). Objectivity has nothing to do with personal experience, especially when talking about things like culture.

I don't judge the whole group, I simply recognise that Islam is not fundamentally at odds with modern Western society.

And I'll trust my personal experience over biased articles anytime.

@Sidhe: brilliant.

 

[Rule Brittania]

well why shouldn't the majority be punished for the crimes of the minority becuase there are a lot of muslims who don't openly support terrorism but do support it in private, perhaps if we started booting out all muslims from europe for the actions of the terrorists that carried out atrocities like 7/7 and 9/11 then perhaps all muslims will openly condemm terrorism

 

[Insane_Panda]

Moral relavatism will be the death of Western Civilization.

You cannot attempt to rationalize the actions or beliefs of those who openly preach for your destruction and the destruction of all which we believe in. You cannot attempt to rationalize the actions of those who seek to tear down basic human rights. You cannot negociate with them. The Hitler analogy is very accurate, in this regard. Remember the 30's? Remeber all the calls for appeasement? Then what happened? Germany invaded Poland and we found Auschwitz.

Not all Muslims are extremists, that is true - but the ones who are must be held accountable. In America, the Muslim population is contented and successful, due to their assimilation into our melting-pot. However, marginalization in European societies has lead them to their anger. This does, in no way, give an excuse to Muslim extremists, but it would do well to examine the root causes of this dissent which is brewing.

 

[BirraImperial]

The level of bigotry in this forum is just astonishing.

 

[Atlas14]

Moral relavatism will be the death of Western Civilization.

You cannot attempt to rationalize the actions or beliefs of those who openly preach for your destruction and the destruction of all which we believe in. You cannot attempt to rationalize the actions of those who seek to tear down basic human rights. You cannot negociate with them. The Hitler analogy is very accurate, in this regard. Remember the 30's? Remeber all the calls for appeasement? Then what happened? Germany invaded Poland and we found Auschwitz.

Not all Muslims are extremists, that is true - but the ones who are must be held accountable. In America, the Muslim population is contented and successful, due to their assimilation into our melting-pot. However, marginalization in European societies has lead them to their anger. This does, in no way, give an excuse to Muslim extremists, but it would do well to examine the root causes of this dissent which is brewing.

Who is rationalizing the fanatical extremists' beliefs and actions?

 

[Rule Brittania]

its not bigotry, i dnt hate immigrant muslims, a lot of them work hard at school ae very skilled and become things like teachers and doctors (both things we need in Britian anyway) but if a minority of them are going to do the things they have done then the best way to stop it is to send them ALL back home

 

[Insane_Panda]

The level of bigotry in this forum is just astonishing.

So too the level of ignorance.

Always running back to the Hitler analogy aren't you? It's getting old. Muslims are not the Nazis, no matter how much you try to paint it otherwise.

But if you want to find parallels to 1930s Europe then here's one for you: we all remember how at that time another religion was being painted as the great threat, don't we?

I'm well aware of what is going on around me, clash of civilisations, old as civilisation itself. It's just that many of us on all sides are tired of this silly game and don't want to play anymore.

You are tired of it. I am tired of it, but Muslim extremists are certaintly NOT tired of it. Look at Iran, look into fundamentalist Mosques in the poorer regions of European cities, look at any Jihadist website. They want a "clash of civilizations". To them, it offers a chance back at the days of the good ol' Caliphate, when Europe was at their heels.

Not all Muslims support extremism, but not all Nazi's supported the gassing of the Jews. It only takes a few to rally many, and it only takes a few to do a lot of damage.

 

[aneeshm]

Always running back to the Hitler analogy aren't you? It's getting old. Muslims are not the Nazis, no matter how much you try to paint it otherwise.

Muslims are not Nazis. But Islam is am imperialism with a historic record far worse than Nazism ever could. We in India can bear testimony to that.

But if you want to find parallels to 1930s Europe then here's one for you: we all remember how at that time another religion was being painted as the great threat, don't we?

Ah, using the old "You're teh evil evillll anti-Semitics, you bad man, you!!!!". Won't work. Nobody is advocating actions against Muslims - but they are asking that the religion be neutered so that it fit into the enlightened and liberal society the West has aspired to build.

I'm well aware of what is going on around me, clash of civilisations, old as civilisation itself. It's just that many of us on all sides are tired of this silly game and don't want to play anymore.

You are the worst sort of defeatists, then, and you will always lose this game. You will be less than a footnote in history, whereas the grand historic saga will cover the stories of those who chose to fight.

 

[Atlas14]

You are the worst sort of defeatists, then, and you will always lose this game. You will be less than a footnote in history, whereas the grand historic saga will cover the stories of those who chose to fight.

Sometimes a peaceful coexistence is a desirable and attainable state of being. Obviously you are a defeatist and don't want to even bother to try to make it work out.

 

[aneeshm]

I am guessing it does not, but simply your own bigotry towards a religion opposite of yours is disallowing you to have a worthy opinion.

Another ad-homimen. Therefore, you lose.

 

[Atlas14]

Another ad-homimen. Therefore, you lose.

Wrong! Aneeshm says I lose so therefore I lose.