Bad Player
Deity
You don't realise there are genocides in Africa (e.g. Sudan) in modern times?
Der Spiegel: Hurray! The West is capitulating!
- Thread starter Katheryn
- Start date
You don't realise there are genocides in Africa (e.g. Sudan) in modern times?
Bad Player
Deity
Actually I'd argue a bit in the reverse. Having read some of the Hadith of Bukhari IIRC there was some scary stuff there. The terrorist set of Muslims is a small minority and I believe part of their rage is from (e.g.) American (EDIT: And British colonialism as Kathery pointed out in the next post) imperialism as well as some fundamentalist Islamic teachings.
Bad Player
Deity
I'd largely agree but what do you think is going to happen if you have 44 (IIRC) million young men surging with testosterone and unable to find wives...?
Bad Player
Deity
Please read post 28. Thank you. Sleep well.
Ah sorry I post as I go along. It's just that some people have a narrow focus of the world and something needs to be done to stop the genocides in Africa as well as other places. Apologies for redundancy.
You are right, Bad Player. Actually, Christians are being genocided all over the globe today. In Indonesia, in Philippines, in Iraq, in Palestinian areas, in Lebanon, in Africa, in Pakistan, Afghanistan, in Malaysia, Thailand (Buddhists) in Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Myanmar in Cambodia, in Turkey, in it is actually a lethal time to be a Christian.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...GGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/01/21/wburma21.xml
Do you care about them? Or did you just forget?
Here is an interesting debate from Front Page regarding France:
Mohamed Ibn Guadi, an Islamologist at Strasbourg University and a researcher in Semitic Philology. He is a contributor to Figaro, Le Point and other journals. He has lectured at the Theological Seminary of Montpellier (France) in Islamic Law and Islamic Warfare during the Abbasside empire at Fez (Morocco) and has taught Persian, Arabic, Sumerian and other Semitic languages in Switzerland;
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Ibn Guadi:
...the error would be to believe that the Islamic religion is accessible to the reform. What I mean to say is that those who wish to change the political institutions dont want to necessarily change the Muslim institutions. They are two different things. As faith and policy are inseparable to Muslims, the subtraction is difficult. The change is more difficult because it requires the re-examining of several centuries of traditions and Islamic jurisdictions. The authority in Muslim theology rests on Bukhari, Muslim, Shafi'i, Ibn Hanbal and other schools. To be able to "reform" some religious elements, it has to be justified by a person of a higher authority. Which is impossible, given the doctrine they follow.
On the theological level, no one can avoid or draw aside the Hadiths. Several Islamic regulations do not come from the Koran but primarily from the Hadiths. The Canonical circumcision or the five canonical prayers do not appear in the Koran but in the collections of Sahih Bukhari, one of the greatest authorities in the chain of the traditions. Other regulations which do not find their source in the Koran but in the Hadiths are the subject of a religious decree (fatwa) to abolish these precepts as the death penalty for apostasy (Bukhari Jihad 149: II, 56, p. 352, 2), the punishment relating to adultery (Muslim, Hudud 12) or the night voyage of Muhammad to the sky (Bukhari, Manaqib Al-ansar, 42: III, 63, 42, p. 37, 1) which is important to negotiations related to the statute of Jerusalem. But even as great authority as the Mufti of Al-Azhar was, even he could not abolish these precepts. Because to some, when you discuss these points you call into question the legitimacy of the Muslei faith. It is precisely for this reason that the leaders of the UOIF (Union of Islamic Organizations of France) have had disputes with the French government. For the Moslems in France and elsewhere, to discuss these points is to reduce their faith.
It should be realized that in the eyes of some Muslims, the religion of Islam is itself the reform the world needs. According to the Islamic doctrines, Judaism and Christianity are good religions but not sufficiently reliable to claim the authority on the questions of faith. For the Muslims, the Christians and the Jews were misled in their writings. In the spirit of Islam, the religion was reformed because the Koran corrected the preceding revelations.
Even if it is difficult to admit, I must recognize that Jamie is right when he says that no one can be unaware of the various texts in which Osama bin Laden or others are using. In February 1998, in a text of six pages, bin Laden declared the war on the Jews and the Christians through a fatwa. No Muslim religious authority produced a fatwa to refute the remarks of Osama. Few Muslims would be in disagreement with what bin Laden said on November 3, 2001 on chain Al-Jazira: "It is impossible to forget the hostility which exists between the inaccurate ones and us. It is a question of religion and creed". From a purely objective point of view, he was right.
Some Muslims are better assimilated than others. Yes, but if they are better assimilated its because they are "less" Islamic. The more spiritual questions that face the Muslims in France, the less they feel related to the country which they live.
Moreover, contrary to the Turks in Germany, the Muslims in France did not need to insist to get their citizenship because a residence permit can be sufficient. The residence permit is delivered to aliens for a 10 years period. Several immigrants whom I know have had this card for 40 years and dont know the French language at all.
Moreover, they do not wish to acquire French nationality and speak about it rather with contempt.
About the worst case scenario in France. On the one hand, France could implode. But on the other hand, I dont think that this implosion would have a huge impact in French society. I agree with Laurent about the Theo van Gogh impact among the French people.
Bayegan talks about Jean-Marie Le Pen. But most of Muslims in France have been like (even admire) him since the end of 80s. This field is taboo in France, but when Jean-Marie Le Pen says in some interviews that most of aliens agree with him, he is right.
Murawiec: The sad truth, I think, is that little indigenous to Europe will seriously contribute to defusing the time bomb. There is a bomb ticking because the world of Islam has proven itself incapable of facing modernity, because of the stubborn adherence of its rent-seeking and rent-owning elites to a mythical view of the world, because Muslims have been left with the delusional world-view of a Golden Age of Islam to which one should aspire to return, because a self-image of the Muslim-as-victim (of imperialism, of colonialism, of Zionism and whatever else) has been systematically propagated by those elites, and accepted by large numbers. So we have large numbers of alienated Muslims throughout Europe.
Soner is right about the Turks: since they come from a more structured society with strong historical traditions and a sense of self-respect born of a millennial domination of the region south and east, their self-identity tends to be less based on self-aggrieved victimhood than that of Arabs. However, even the Turkish model, which has much to be admired, today faces the rising tide of an Islamic regime which is drowning the secular modernizers. The limits of the Ataturkian model have been reached: Mein Kampf is the #1 bestseller in Turkey today, it is sold at train stations, museums, newsstands, etc. Once again, it is perfectly true that Turkish areas in German towns are no ghettoes. So both Turks and Germans are better off. Still, it does not dispense us from dealing with the problem that Islamism in general poses.
Weve got to deal with Islam Ill agree with Mohamed. Now, being alienated does not mean being right. Suffering bestows no right, said Albert Camus. The problem is that todays world of Islam considers it licit and even recommended to kill Infidels as a way of solving problems. Al-Azhar says that. Qaradhawi says it. The Saudi shaykhs repeat it endlessly. Arafat built a career on it, as well as Saddam, Assad, etc.The ideology of terror has been promoted, extolled, lionized, and adopted, in the world of Islam as in no other part of the world. It is symptomatic of the generalized blindness that prevails in the world of Islam: a love of destruction, a desire for annihilation: Nihilism has become a principal intellectual force. Blame Khomeini and Shariati, al-Banna and Qutb, as well as Michel Aflaq and the ideologues of secular nationalism. This is what powers the time bomb.
Now, Europes attitude has been to pretend that this does not exist, and look the other way. In the UK, the Labour Party is so craven toward the radicals in the Muslim population, there is little that it will not do to gain its favors. While France was watching existentialist movies and dreaming of imperial glory, huge swaths of surburban (banlieue) territory have become lawless areas (zones de non-droit). So its not just a French problem, though the problem there is acute. Bat Yeor has a very strong point when she analyzes Europes evolution as moving toward what she called Eurabia. To deal with a problem, you would need to recognize it to start with. Im alright, Jack, says the French elite. Europe, I predict, will do nothing. It will wait, like the proverbial Roman patricians, waiting for the Barbarians at gates to enter and slaughter them.
Now, dealing with Islam. It seems to me that we have to escape the fatal dilemma: its their religion, we cant touch it. The problem is that Islam has been captured by Islamism; we can live with Islam in general, we cannot live with Islamism. Islam has failed to cope with Islamism. We have to do so, because it will not let us live, but make us die.
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How about we stop the misogynous hatred against women that is perpetuated by the Islamic traditions? Plenty of genocide going on against women right now. Honor killings, Female Genital Mutilation, forced marriages, forced divorces, polygamy, slavery, prepubescent forced marriages, beatings, forced veil, all this going on in sophisticated countries. It is appalling!
Bad Player
Deity
From a woman's perspective... Hey, hey, hey!
unless it's women having multiple husbands which is disgusting!
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Conclusion: Pasi can't read.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
I'd like to point out few things:
1) This "capitulation" isn't pan-European thing. Common Europeans, unlike their representatives in parliaments and governments, are becoming more and more dissatisfied with this appeasment of Islam. In some countries, they started voting for far-right parties, that are willing to adopt much harder stance towards radicals who threaten the West. Mainstream parties feel threaten so they also begin to change their defeatist policies.
2) European press and some medie haven't stop to report on the danger coming from Islam. Last year, European press reprinted the controversial cartoons to show solidarity with Danes, even if the politicians in respective European countries didn't. Only Britain and the US abstained - so much for their courage.
3) Islamists are pushing too hard. They are convinced that Westerners got soft and all they need is to blow up some trains and they will surrender. But this is not going to happen, law of action-reaction applies here. Patience of Europeans is growing thin and the public is increasingly angry.
4) The sense of cultural identity and unity is very strong in Europe. Sharia law is completely unacceptable to most of Europeans, as well as some other Islamic tenets. It is unconceivable for an average non-religious European that any religion should mess with politics once again, be it Christianity or Islam or whatever else. If Islamists think they can force Europeans to convert, they are completely wrong.
Europe will wake up, eventually, and then they'll pay for their insolence. I am just afraid that also other, innocent minorities will suffer because of this failed jihad.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Such reply is completely useless. Have you read that article, or is it just another "I don't like what it says so I won't read it" reaction?
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Another "I knew one Nazi and he wasn't that bad" nonsense.
You can't use your personal experience to dismiss the bigger picture. I am sure many Muslims oppose this fanatism as much as I do, but sadly, they're minority. And we have to deal with the majority.
Princeps
More bombs than God
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2004
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You are exaggerating. In Palestine, Christian population is suffering yes, because of Israeli actions. In Indonesia and India, among elsewhere in Asia, it is often the Christians who cause the problems, just as much as some muslims.
The article said that muslims threatens West. Its a view of one journalist and I have not nothing againist publishing hate articles. Its Der Spiegels problem because partiality of newspapers lowers respect of people on these newspapers. Comparision with historic events should be funny for everyone.
Katheryn said:
Do you see any contradiction in holding those two positions?
I'm impressed at how little originality there is in such a long article. noncon summed it up well.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
It doesn't need to be original. People fail to understand simple facts, that's why they need to be repeated until they do.
I know, that's why those of us who oppose Islamaphobia keep repeating them.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Yes, pretty much like the proponents of pre-WW2 appeasement kept saying that Hitler is man of peace - until he attacked them.
But if you like to ignore the facts, if you like to dismiss what's happening all around you, so be it. It's your leap of faith, not mine.
Always running back to the Hitler analogy aren't you? It's getting old. Muslims are not the Nazis, no matter how much you try to paint it otherwise.
But if you want to find parallels to 1930s Europe then here's one for you: we all remember how at that time another religion was being painted as the great threat, don't we?
I'm well aware of what is going on around me, clash of civilisations, old as civilisation itself. It's just that many of us on all sides are tired of this silly game and don't want to play anymore.
But if you want to find parallels to 1930s Europe then here's one for you: we all remember how at that time another religion was being painted as the great threat, don't we?
I'm well aware of what is going on around me, clash of civilisations, old as civilisation itself. It's just that many of us on all sides are tired of this silly game and don't want to play anymore.
