Design: Civilizations

[Sureshot]

What about intentional useful splits? In the same way that having a Permanent Alliance with another Civ is more beneficial than just conquering them (Huge city number and distance maintenance costs; more managing) you could allow a civ to add a leader to their cause.

Like let's say if you have a Forbidden Palace in a faraway city of yours, and you send a Great Commander there, then the Great Commander has the option to "govern independently from the mother empire, but permanently allied with them." Or make it a wonder that does it, if and of itself. I'm not sure if the game can handle 19 civs or more, but if no make it check to make sure theres enough space for another leader.
It then has the following effects:
That 1 city is now controlled by a new AI with same Civ as the creator civ, but a different Leader (chosen at random of the others if more than 2, or maybe have a popup window). That Civ is in a Permanent Alliace with you.
You can then go on to give them cities you think would do better in their care (too high maintenance costs for you due to distance, or just averaging out city numbers between your civs to lower the nuymber-of-cities maintenance).
Maybe make a special condition in diplomacy with them that they'll give you any city of theirs if you ask for it as well.

Maybe even allow more than 1 extra leader (space and number of leaders permitting), maybe make permanent alliance part of it only last so long (like maybe as long as you've played the game up to that point). It'd prolly be good then to add more leaders for all civs (all atleast 2, and maybe more if the civ seems like its the type to handle multiple rulers; civs with only 1 could maybe be balanced with this - one leader means no division is possible).


Lots of neat things could be done with this, and it could be governed well for the AI (AI's split off the city with Forbidden Palace and maybe any cities closer to it than to capital), but most of all itd be civ splitting by Choice, for a Use.
So many times I take over an enemies lands only to realize I've just made the world a little smaller (as I am bigger) and less interesting (1 less player) and only given myself more to manage, when I enjoyed just managing my perfectly designed empire but was forced into taking enemy cities because they became too big a threat. It's like taking over a country then installing your own leaders there who are more friendly

 

[Brancaleone]

I think it was Gal Civ, dont remember, but it was a turn based empire builder, where i saw an interesting event once; a new nation was founded on an empty far away planet, and they found an ancient relic there; every turn they would get 1% stronger, and if not stopped, they would become too powerfull. Well i coundnt reach them, but soon enough they started expanding and i just couldnt handle those old ships and their 300% combat modifier

Could that work in FfH? In turn 200 or so, add a new nation on the map with only 1 city and the starting units, and every turn give all units from that empire a 0.2% combat promotion; their souldiers will get 20% stronger every 100 turns. The AI will probably have no reason to attack them, but if You dont exterminate them soon enough, they could become unstopable

 

[Nikis-Knight]

What about intentional useful splits? In the same way that having a Permanent Alliance with another Civ is more beneficial than just conquering them (Huge city number and distance maintenance costs; more managing) you could allow a civ to add a leader to their cause.

Good points. Late game you have to either raze cities or drop down to low science levels if you need to declare war. It'd be just like the Roman empire.

 

[Sureshot]

The more I think about it the more I like the "Permanent" Alliance eventually breaking, as it would give you a bonus to split (lower maintenance costs allowing much faster science since shared tech, easier to manage) but with a time limit (after which you still have a similar civ friend [same alignment, likely same religion and civics, same diplomatic standing with others]).

So if you played for 200 turns before adding this ally, you'd have 200 turns to really dominate (and possibly beat the game in) after which you encounter a new game to play (do you try to out play, out tech, out dominate them? or do you antagonize them to start a war and reclaim their cities and then try the whole thing over again?).

Maybe doing another split (adding a third leader for your civ), while the previous split is still in alliance, further extends the previous split to allow you to maintain a growing allied empire for longer. And then eventually things would start falling apart if you don't rule the world yet and you get a "Fall of Rome" scenario. Either way, tons of interesting fun.

In this version of it (Permanent not being permanent), them giving you their cities back would not happen (otherwise you'd just take them all back right before they leave the Permanent alliance).

 

[Sureshot]

In the Midgard scenario for Civ2(or 3?) there was an Avian race. I'm surprised to not see such a civ since they'd be so different and interesting to play. Has there been consideration of such?

 

[Maian]

One similar idea that could be doable: Throw new leaders into the mix halfway through the game (say turn 200), if either there are at least 3 cities (scale with map size) belonging to minor tribes within x spaces of each other, give their control to an unused AI, and allow diplomacy with them. They'd probably need a tech boost and such to stay competitive.

Or you could inflict civil war on the AI, if they have 75% more points than any human civ, split off 1/4 to 1/2 of their cities into a new color, using either the other leader of that civ or a new one entirely.

I like the concept, but in practice, by that turn almost every part of the whole world would be in some civ's territory.

The only way I could see this working is if the new civ has some large advantage that can overcome its tardiness on the stage. For instance, I can imagine the Infernal race spontaneously form in an Ashen Veil city (or whatever fits the lore) with a massive army. Or hell gates spawning around the city that produce Infernal units constantly.

I would also prefer for these events to happen more randomly. Fixing at turn 200 or any turn for that matter would be too predictable. Rather, there should be specific conditions for the event to occur. In the above example, the Infernal race should only spawn in an evil city that has a fire/summoner-type unit and once a certain tech has been reached. There should also be plenty of forewarning to the event - the occasional demon "barbarian" should start spawning around the city before it happens. And of course, it should be preventable.

On a related note, the AI should also try to prevent bad events from happening, but that's not really important (it would be fun to see events screw around with AIs ).

 

[Sureshot]

Maybe if there's more then a certain number of wars going on it could trigger such a thing (chaos in the world manifests itself as infernal).

 

[Sureshot]

The Lanun don't start with Fishing? That seems odd.

Also Falamar ingame has Expansive/Creative, but this thread states Creative/Financial.

 

[Kael]

The Lanun don't start with Fishing? That seems odd.

Also Falamar ingame has Expansive/Creative, but this thread states Creative/Financial.

You are right, I'll fix it the 1st post so it lists his traits correctly. Im holding off on adding starter techs right now waiting to see how the new tree works out.

 

[Thunderwing]

Just an plotline point that seems to go here. Sphener, the Order's highend angel hero, had to intentionally fall and "be reborn as a man" i think the Civilopedia said to interfere on earth to preserve that symblo of the compact, right. Then how can the Bannor leader go to earth and keep enough power to make an entire civilization magic-resistant and Capria immortal enough to get through 50 years in hell, and the entire age of ice and into the age of rebirth . And if Sabathiel can pull that stunt, why the -bleep- can't Cassiel grant some basic healing spells or engage in combat himself?

 

[Kael]

Just an plotline point that seems to go here. Sphener, the Order's highend angel hero, had to intentionally fall and "be reborn as a man" i think the Civilopedia said to interfere on earth to preserve that symblo of the compact, right. Then how can the Bannor leader go to earth and keep enough power to make an entire civilization magic-resistant and Capria immortal enough to get through 50 years in hell, and the entire age of ice and into the age of rebirth . And if Sabathiel can pull that stunt, why the -bleep- can't Cassiel grant some basic healing spells or engage in combat himself?

Sabathiel, Cassiel and Basium are/were Solar's, greatest of angels. Much more powerful than Sphener.

In the storyline most of Basiums troops are minor angels that followed him. Thats why they have the magic resistence promotion. Basium has a few humans that followed him, but he thinks that most people just get in the way. Basium's civ wont be detailed until "Fire" so I dont know how much of this lore we will incorporate into the civ or not. Basium has no problem picking up a club and killing anyone who gets in his way, her prefers demons but will send men to hell for their actions (and kill them again once he finds them there).

Sabathiel is still in Junil's good graces. He won't go fight directly because of the compact. Although he was very active in the battle into and out of hell he remains in a secluded chamber on creation, meeting with the high priests and sending his commands and advice through emmisaries rather then being out directly with the people. In the actual story Sabathiel abandons the Bannor when they take the Order to such an extreme that they become intolerant and overpunishing for even the lsighest infractions. The high priests carry on ceremony of going to meet with Sabathiel for decades, pretending that their orders are from him and leading the civilization further into extremeism.

Capria is a mortal, and suffers from the same plot hole as all mortal leaders. How do they live for the hundreds of years that the mod covers? I thought about making all of the civ leaders immortal or extremly long lived (quite a few of them are) but in the end I opted not to since I would just be developing convienant stories for each of them. I decided to let them exist as they were. In truth the leaders represents the greatest leaders of the age of rebirth from several stages of that Age, from the begining of the age, the war of the elements, sorcerors path, winters run, and new beginings (the last campaign I ran).

In the "real" timeline Falamar and Capria never would have meet, they were never alive at the same time. Charadon and Jonus met, but only because Charadon was ressurected a few hundred years after he died, well into the middle of the age.

Its just like vanilla civ in that regard. In some places I did a little tweaking to make things more consistent (Varn's story takes place at the begining of the age of ice but in truth it was much later during winters run).

But we design what is best for the mod and use the lore to add flavor. We are not attempting to recreate the d&d campaign storylines. We will probably do some closer stories in the scenerios.

 

[Thunderwing]

So, that's why some of the order stuff seems like typical D&D LN/LG and some of it is like the spanish inquisition. I was wondering how the heck an angel would put up with the stuff from Rosier's entry. Heck, I was trying to figure out how Rosier falling had anything to do with the entry unless thre divination got screwed up or created some sort of paradox. Ya know, he's going to fall when we tell he will, or something like that. I take it the compact prevents Sabathiel from just giving the priests an extremly ugly lecture and cutting off thier spell access for a time, or would that be up to Junil for the same reason Cassiel cant at least grant the basic stuff?

 

[Kael]

So, that's why some of the order stuff seems like typical D&D LN/LG and some of it is like the spanish inquisition. I was wondering how the heck an angel would put up with the stuff from Rosier's entry. Heck, I was trying to figure out how Rosier falling had anything to do with the entry unless thre divination got screwed up or created some sort of paradox. Ya know, he's going to fall when we tell he will, or something like that. I take it the compact prevents Sabathiel from just giving the priests an extremly ugly lecture and cutting off thier spell access for a time, or would that be up to Junil for the same reason Cassiel cant at least grant the basic stuff?

Good catch on rosiers entry, your absolutly right that the time period that takes place in is after the purge. In the game the priests did lose their spells, but they covered it with false reports of miracles and claims that those that went unhealed weren't pious enough to recieve healing (and yes, that was up to Junil not Sabathiel).

By the end of it genuninly faithful acolytes (there were a few) who had spells would be hunted down and imprisoned by the church as heretics. Most fled or kept their talents secret. Some were taken in by the Luonnotar.

 

[Brancaleone]

How can a nation be lead by a 10 years old kid... until you build your first farm, he isnt a kid anymore

Lets just pretend here. Some civilizaton fan fic writers (god im such a nerd) treat the leaders as a lineage, ie, Washinton the XXIII, Washinton the XXIV, etc; others treat them a great leaders, who just dont get old, because, well, they dont.

Its a fantasy world, so there must be plenty of reasons for people not getting old. They dont exactly need one.

 

[Thunderwing]

That's one thing i've never gotten in D&D. When you can prove that you at least have enough favor to cast, how the heck does anyone fall for it and how do you fake the non-healing stuff, i.e. destroy undead, cure disease on members of the establishment and so on. Not to mention how do you explain the "heretics" clearly getting spells that only Junil grants like the law sphere stuff, or Lawbringers sucsessfully attacking the mainstream guys or Sphener presumably completely flipping out at some of this stuff. Since he isn't bound by the compact can't he do something substantial. And shouldn't the armeggedon spells starting to go off pretty much justify at least bending the rules in the name of the world not ending like Sabathiel teleporting into the capital and doing something?
Ok, maybe I play too much Planescape, because a Planescape-style response instead of leaving would be more like starting flinging the holy smites everywhere.

 

[Kael]

Incidently Valin's pedia entry is also from after the Purge. At that point in time he has abandoned the church and continues to follow Junil on his own. But it talks a bit abotu Valin's past and what it was like to grow up amount the Bannor after the Purge. It wasn't a very enlightened culture.

The following is Valin's introduction to Saverous. He is still performing as a executioner at this point, although he is doing it "rogue" (without the churches blessing). Saverous and Valin end up traveling together. The person Valin is talking to in his pedia entry is Saverous during those travels.

[tab]It had happened 6 times since pulling the cow from the ravine. Each time Saverous was left completely drained of strength. Pontif suggested that in times of great need the runes might activate. But the times seemed random, although the duration was longer each time.

[tab]Saverous was thinking about this as he gathered mandrake roots. Through the trees a horse approached with the flapping of the harness and equipment from a steady walk. Most of the villagers didn't ride horses, certainly not out here in the woods so Saverous scooped up the few pieces of mandrake he had been cleaning the dirt off of and began to walk back to the barn, choosing a path that would avoid the horse.

[tab]But the horse was getting louder, the pace didn't quicken but it had turned to follow. It wasn’t visible through the trees. Saverous turned and headed deeper into the forest, taking care to be as quiet as possible for someone his size. The horse turned again and he caught a glimpse of it, a magnificent black horse walking with precise, almost perfect, steps. This was definitly no one from the village.

[tab]Realizing he wasn't going to simply be able to lose the rider Saverous settled down to uproot another batch of mandrake that his twisted path had taken him to. The horseman seemed as plain as his horse was regal. He wore a chain shirt over his tunic, although parts of a full suit of armor were visible on the horse. A light lance and a long claymore whose hilt had been wrapped in dark leather hung from the saddle. The horseman had a longsword sheathed at his side and rested his hand easily on it while he rode closer.

[tab]“I bring a message from the hosts of Junil,” he said invoking the god of light and justice, the patron of the country of Kyriel, “you have been found guilty of crimes against man and heaven.”

[tab]He paused as if expecting some response. Saverous only continued to watch him while absently digging at the mandrake.

[tab]“Do you understand me?”

[tab]Saverous nodded. The rider was older than you would expect for someone traveling in the woods spouting nonsense.

[tab]“I am not judge or jury, I am only hear to carry out the sentence. An angel has lead me to you, brought me to be your executioner. I will return in one day. In that time you have three options, either fight and I will kill you, flee and I will hunt you down or repent. If you repent you will be granted mercy. Junil will pardon your soul if you are honest and I will leave you. If you follow the vows of your repentance you will never see me again, otherwise I will return for you.”

[tab]“I'm sorry. If I would have realized you regarded havesting mandrake so seriously I would have asked first.” The rider didn't seem to appreciate the joke.

[tab]“You have one day Saverous Gan-Fienel, then I return. Think well on my words.” Then he turned his horse and left at the same measured pace he came.

 

[Kael]

That's one thing i've never gotten in D&D. When you can prove that you at least have enough favor to cast, how the heck does anyone fall for it and how do you fake the non-healing stuff, i.e. destroy undead, cure disease on members of the establishment and so on. Not to mention how do you explain the "heretics" clearly getting spells that only Junil grants like the law sphere stuff, or Lawbringers sucsessfully attacking the mainstream guys or Sphener presumably completely flipping out at some of this stuff. Since he isn't bound by the compact can't he do something substantial. And shouldn't the armeggedon spells starting to go off pretty much justify at least bending the rules in the name of the world not ending like Sabathiel teleporting into the capital and doing something?
Ok, maybe I play too much Planescape, because a Planescape-style response instead of leaving would be more like starting flinging the holy smites everywhere.

Your right, if you are playing a high magic campaign where everyone can stop by the local church to get healed, arms reattached, and reincarnated as badgers it should be really easy to tell exactly what the gods want. I typically ran games where magic was much rarer. Most priests, even true believing ones, couldnt cast spells.

I always thought of it like the gods had a relatively small amount of power to hand out. The aggresive gods like Junil gavce it to adventurers and those out fighting evil directly. Nature gods might not give power to their worshippers at all but instead grant their power as blessing on holy groves and natural areas that their worshippers tended.

I never understood worlds where joe peon knew the details of a cure light wounds spell.

 

[ChaoticWanderer]

are their any palns for new Civs?

I really wish for Gnomes a rgeat inventing civ would be awesome and the Gnomes or Dark Gnomes could carry this trait

 

[Jono]

are their any palns for new Civs?

I really wish for Gnomes a rgeat inventing civ would be awesome and the Gnomes or Dark Gnomes could carry this trait

I think Kael claimed Gnomes did not exist in the world of FfH a while back...

 

[Kael]

I think Kael claimed Gnomes did not exist in the world of FfH a while back...

Halflings/Hobbits were the ones that dont exist. "Gnomes" do or dont exist just depending on what you want to call them. For all practical purposes the Luchuirp are the gnomes of the FfH world. In FfH they come from the same line as dwarves but split way back, basically just another race of dwarves. In the games they were called gnomes, dwarves or just the Luchuirp at different points.

In designing the mod I opted not to have the Luchuirp share the dwarven race instead of being gnomes. I didn't see much value in making a new race and I wouldn't be able to share units between the two if I did that.

FYI: Did you know the FfH2 civs were selected before I started working on FfH1? The first time they were released publically was Jan 15th, over 4 months before FfH2 was released.http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3578999&postcount=1388

Its nice to see that those early plans were maintained. It takes a lot of time to do this stuff but we are making progress.