Design: Civilizations

[QES]

Just doesn't feel nomady, seems like there'd always be cities around, and big ones at that. Having borders and yields means theyre working the land centric to their cities, and grants them dominion over all that within their borders (no barbarians spawning there, no animals entering), they'd treat other civs borders like they don't exist while maintaining their own solid borders (i know i'd be pissed if a civ snuck into my borders and built a city in my lands - AI's already build super fast and take all the good lands).

This is a very good point. But then another good point is that nomads never really made wonderful "civilizations" The only things nomads did (usually) was to conquer or get conquered by other civilizations, then settle (or be forced to settle) down.

The Mongols are prolly the largest exception to this, but even the mongols became "civilized" when they invaded persia and the islamic states, they converted and settled down. THe nomadic warrior culture of the mongolian step were more in lines with how 'minor civs' and "barbarians" work in CIV IV.

But still, id kinda like to play nomads once.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

My idea is of native americans before the germ-warfare europeans came
The idea of living off the land, camping and spreading out across a continent. Or like the gypsies (called Tinkers? i can't remember now O_o) in The Wheel of Time series, they might stop for a bit in a nice spot, but they were always on the move.

Nomads definately wouldn't be worth playing in vanilla civ (since most techs become city centric or involve units that would require factories to build; nomads building tanks just seems wrong).
But in FfH (or scenarios of ancient times) they can work. There's no reason nomads couldn't get access to mithril, or magic, so they could remain competitive throughout the game.


Your idea on how they'd work sounds neat, just not nomadic
Could emmigration and colonization not work? I'm not seeing the difference in mechanic besides new buildings and forced city disbanding. And given that these cities would exist for many years (some existing for extremely long times if they built a wonder for instance) before moving on it just sounds like migration.
But i don't know how i'd cope with enemies building cities in my borders, its difficult enough with them being able to walk through your units in peace time (that was a shocker first time i played, makes it near impossible to hold lands you eventually want to settle).

 

[QES]

My idea is of native americans before the germ-warfare europeans came
The idea of living off the land, camping and spreading out across a continent. Or like the gypsies (called Tinkers? i can't remember now O_o) in The Wheel of Time series, they might stop for a bit in a nice spot, but they were always on the move.

Nomads definately wouldn't be worth playing in vanilla civ (since most techs become city centric or involve units that would require factories to build; nomads building tanks just seems wrong).
But in FfH (or scenarios of ancient times) they can work. There's no reason nomads couldn't get access to mithril, or magic, so they could remain competitive throughout the game.


Your idea on how they'd work sounds neat, just not nomadic
Could emmigration and colonization not work? I'm not seeing the difference in mechanic besides new buildings and forced city disbanding. And given that these cities would exist for many years (some existing for extremely long times if they built a wonder for instance) before moving on it just sounds like migration.
But i don't know how i'd cope with enemies building cities in my borders, its difficult enough with them being able to walk through your units in peace time (that was a shocker first time i played, makes it near impossible to hold lands you eventually want to settle).

Yeah, we thought of different types of Nomads. (Although it should be mentioned that the plains indians were not nomadic before the europeans arrived, as horses had not yet been introduced into the culture, and "nomadism" increased with european influences - pushing them off lands, giving them tools that made hunting more profitable than farming, etc.)

So we both came up with legitimate nomadic civilizations that reflect two KINDS of nomadisim (the mongols did in fact have citys, but were considered nomadic, becuase the RULERS of those cities traveled in armies).

MAYBE! what we need here is two different civilizations - each with its own mechanic as we described it, and the "Nomadic Trait" which cuts down on maintenance costs? Maybe "Nomadic: -90% Maintenance, +2 Experience per unit" This would cover both types well....my warrior em/imegrants, and your mobile tribesman.

-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

Well the mechanic i described wouldn't have cities so maintenance wouldn't really apply lol

Though about the native americans, they did travel (particularly in cold climates) before they had horses (i was actually going to mention what you said, that they in fact didn't have horses), but (IIRC) they also had semi-permanent structures they revisited. And the original natives were supposed to have come from Asia crossing when a land/ice bridge formed connecting asia to Alaska, so i'm guessin they mostly travelled, which is not to say some didn't settle down in places (especially in central america with their big temples and such).

 

[QES]

Well the mechanic i described wouldn't have cities so maintenance wouldn't really apply lol

Though about the native americans, they did travel (particularly in cold climates) before they had horses (i was actually going to mention what you said, that they in fact didn't have horses), but (IIRC) they also had semi-permanent structures they revisited. And the original natives were supposed to have come from Asia crossing when a land/ice bridge formed connecting asia to Alaska, so i'm guessin they mostly travelled, which is not to say some didn't settle down in places (especially in central america with their big temples and such).

Well yes that great migration did impact quite a bit, the problem is that this is not a "civilziation" as such. Its a people. Its nomads....but put them up against (even mideval) modern natives they'd not stand a chance.

The plains indians (pre-horses) were more of a civilziation than the nomads that crossed the berring strait ever could be. Also...how would you address the "semi-permanent" settlements in game? Anything? or forgo it completely?
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

Prolly forgo them completely, complications are not needed!

 

[QES]

Prolly forgo them completely, complications are not needed!

Forgo yours maybe . J/k.

No i still want to see something nomadic introduced, which is why its best to hash out these ideas.
-Qes

 

[loki1232]

I know someone mentioned having an army of freed slaves earlier, and i think the malakim are the best choice for that. They are the missionaries, the ones who want to convert you and have you believe.

Whenever a malakim unit wins a battle against a unit from a evil civ, or an OO civ, there is a 20% chance of a freed slave unit being produced. This unit works at double worker speed, and can join a city as a pop point and a bonus of culture. or it can be upgraded into a Freeman. This is a medium strength unit that can be a missionary for your state religion, and can be upgraded into a Devotee, which is stronger and faster.
Demons and undead do not count for this, for obvious reasons (same as vamps and golems and spells)
(forgot to mention that capturing a slave also gives a freed slave.)

 

[Sureshot]

Forgo yours maybe . J/k.

No i still want to see something nomadic introduced, which is why its best to hash out these ideas.
-Qes

I'm messing around with python and the xml files to see how feasible what i'm talkin about is.

 

[bebematos]

What do you think of a nomadic civic? Some civilization, like the Doviello, the Clan of Embers and the Malakim, would start with it. This civic would be more or less like the the above described, and would be bad for all-things trade: research, culture and money. It would give the civ a incredible mobility, shorter reinforecemnt lines in battle, easier time colonizing new lands, amazing resource grabbing ability. And once the civ abandons the nomadic civ it cannot return to it. There would be a bigger anarchy time to change from nomadic, and we would have to think about how reward strategies to keep the civ nomadic until the late game.

I think the Sureshot version cleaner than the QES version, but do not allow the same amount of interaction with other game elements. My suggestion is turn the Sureshot mechanic a civic as above described, and make a variant of QES mechanic a unique mechanic of a civ, like the Hippus.

 

[Sureshot]

Sounds neat, I've been thinking about it as a civic, something the Hippus could start with that could be abandonned (turning all their nomad units into appropriate ones), but also possibly being allowed to choose the Nomadic civic later, with the effect being all cities disband into several nomad units, or turnin the cities over to the barbarians and turning their units into nomads.

Atm i'm workin on the nomad as units design, so far i've gotten them replicating (at an adjustable rate that also changes with game speed). I'm gonna see what i can do with them, they're fun for me to play, but atm the AI doesn't know what to do with them lol

 

[QES]

I know someone mentioned having an army of freed slaves earlier, and i think the malakim are the best choice for that. They are the missionaries, the ones who want to convert you and have you believe.

Whenever a malakim unit wins a battle against a unit from a evil civ, or an OO civ, there is a 20% chance of a freed slave unit being produced. This unit works at double worker speed, and can join a city as a pop point and a bonus of culture. or it can be upgraded into a Freeman. This is a medium strength unit that can be a missionary for your state religion, and can be upgraded into a Devotee, which is stronger and faster.
Demons and undead do not count for this, for obvious reasons (same as vamps and golems and spells)
(forgot to mention that capturing a slave also gives a freed slave.)

Thats awesome! Emancipation civ. Are they/should be forbiden from choosing OO and/or slavery type civics?

Side Note: Are they getting more "Desert" based soon?
Second Side note: I think sure shot and i still want nomads.
-Qes

 

[QES]

What do you think of a nomadic civic? Some civilization, like the Doviello, the Clan of Embers and the Malakim, would start with it. This civic would be more or less like the the above described, and would be bad for all-things trade: research, culture and money. It would give the civ a incredible mobility, shorter reinforecemnt lines in battle, easier time colonizing new lands, amazing resource grabbing ability. And once the civ abandons the nomadic civ it cannot return to it. There would be a bigger anarchy time to change from nomadic, and we would have to think about how reward strategies to keep the civ nomadic until the late game.

I think the Sureshot version cleaner than the QES version, but do not allow the same amount of interaction with other game elements. My suggestion is turn the Sureshot mechanic a civic as above described, and make a variant of QES mechanic a unique mechanic of a civ, like the Hippus.

This is a pretty creative solution. IM gonna chew on it.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

I've been messing around and gotten it to the point where you start (as Hippus) with a basic nomad (used the hippus settler image), if it camps somewhere it eventually replicates (the length of time is dependent on the game speed and the terrain), and if it camps a forest it turns into a Raider (though reduced to 3 movement), and if a Raider camps copper it becomes a Brigand, and if a Brigand camps iron it becomes a Wind Knight. I gave all of them +50% vs. animals and they can get terrain defense modifiers.

I made Rhoannas traits Raiders/Scorched Earth for it. It's pretty neat though i can't find any files for the AI, and atm the AI for it can't replicate (they just roam around fighting barbarians.. was pretty funny when my civ and another civ were nomads and they asked me for open borders lol [neither of us had any borders]).

Oh, and for replication, the new unit is always a basic nomad, so it'd have to go get upgraded by camping itself. I made the stronger units slower at camping as well (they're more military driven than production driven).
And currently i set it to about 20 turns on quick to replicate (20 years sounds like enough time for a population to double).
At the moment they can group together to do it faster, so three nomads can make an extra one in about 7 turns.
I'm thinking of making it so they can't replicate if they have no gold and a negative gold amount.

 

[CoheeLunden]

I was thinking recently that it might be cool to make it possible for the kuriotates to build different types of settlements. Traditionally you can think about how there were exploatory/financial settlements, military settlements (advanced forts), or religious settlements. It might be interesting to give the kurioates abilities to construct different settlement flavors...

Financial settlements are much of what you have now, made explicitly to grab resources and increase money at little cost to the mother nation, but not able to build anything.

A military settlement might be able to build a single unit but would have a larger financial drag. For instance imagine builing a calvary settlement that popped the highest level horse unit every 15-20 turns.

Religious settlments would actually produce culture ( or perhaps pop disciples), but resources in their borders might actually be useless, or become untradable....

Just an idea

 

[Love]

why can te ai but not i play ass infernal?anyone

 

[QES]

why can te ai but not i play ass infernal?anyone

The "infernals" are a minor civ, only available to the AI at this stage in the project. In the future the Infernals will be a playable (i think) faction with all the assorted accutraments. This will not happen until phase fire or shadow. We are currently in Phase Light. The order of phases is Light, Fire, Shadow, Ice. Each phase has with it associated issues to deal with. The infernals will be delt with later, and playable at a later release of the Mod.
-Qes

 

[Sureshot]

You can just edit the CivilizationInfos xml file and change the <bPlayable>0</bPlayable> under infernals to <bPlayable>1</bPlayable>, or theres another way if you have an excel editor (kael described it somewhere i cant remember)

 

[Love]

ok i understand

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Infernals may never be playable if they have special roles to play in hell or quests. It will always be changeable in the editor.