Design: Promotions

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Wouldn't this make cavalry units the best stack defenders? Regardless of their strength?
How about instead give cavalry an ability similar to Loki or Maian's Heroes, only on a % to succeed basis?

This is one of the details to be resolved. We don't want a cav unit to prevent attacks on the main stack itself. We want teh cav to move ahead of teh main stack, cutting off the enemy's ability to maneuver. There are some reasons to feel optimistic though.

1) Mounted units don't get defensive benefits. So foot units in the same tile would generally defend first over mounted units in the tile. Except, maybe, in flatlands, where mounted units are supposed to thrive. But even then, a powerful attacking stack is likely to be full of very powerful non-mounted units. Those units wold still go out to accept battle. (I assume ... could be wrong here!!!)

2) The Screening promotion can be restricted to certain specific mounted units. This would represent a defacto split of mounted units into "light" and "heavy" cavalry. "Light" cav, like Horse Archers, could learn teh screening promotion. "Heavy" units, such as War Elephants, could not. This would further lessen the chance cav units could intercept attacks launched at the main stack full of powerful attackers.

3) There will still be instances where a cav unit can screen other units in the same tile. Wounded units, Adepts, Zealots, Great People, Workers ... all of these would let the mounted units fight first. Is this a deal-breaker or a deal-maker? Or none of the above?

As for the randomness ... yes, I agree, the ability should not work 100% of the time. I do not know how detailed the Team can make the percentage calculation, or how complicated they'd want to make it. But in theroy it would be possible to adjust the % chance of success based upon various factors ... perhaps even differnt Screening promotions, I, II and III. Details TBD, but yes, I agree entirely that this thing should not work automatically.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Well, when the regular archer is better at defending city then the Unique Archer unit of a religion I think there is something wrong. The Archer of Leavs dont have anything special really but +10% in forests/ancient and double movement in them. So they arent really much better in the field then a regular archer anyways. I guess the fact they dont require an Archery Range makes them OK.

I see the 112 tier-2 religious units as stop-gap troops, not as the prime example of that unit type. I look at 'em as religiously-motivated militia. Levees. (The sort of units King Edward send into battle against unkempt Scots instead of using up expensive arrows.) They let a civ obtain some capability in that area, but of lesser quality and at an inefficient cost. Civs that have put in the resources to learn specific warmaking techs should be able to field units superior to the militia version. All just IMO of course.

The Drown of the OO are a bit of an exception to this genral rule. Their 4 STR is pretty tough for their era, but the hammer inefficiency remains. It would not be FfH if every rule of thumb was not broken at least once.

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Maybe a Fearless promotion instead which actually gives a slight bonus against units with fear?

Cav units would not literally be casting fear spells. They would be using their mobility to deny combat to slow-moving threats, while still remaining in the general area. The net effect in the game is modeled much the same way, but it's nnot literally fear at work.

Now, how about light cav used against light cav in the screening role? It seems plausible to have Screening I, II, and III. A unit with Screening III would find it rather easy to foil a unit with only Screening I. The same concept could work without the various levels of Screening of course. Screening-capable units could counteract each other.

 

[Jono]

Wouldn't these upgrades make the Hippus really strong? I mean nerf-required strong...

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

Wouldn't these upgrades make the Hippus really strong? I mean nerf-required strong...

Beats me. It'd have to be playtested to see for sure.

[Edit: If a unit needed Screening I-II-III, for example, in order to really make this ability reliable, then that also means three promotions do not go into boosting the unit's STR. So there's a little bit of a self-balance there.

And none of this help against the magic. In fact, this thing might open a whole new role for spells.

Earthquake:[/I] Bounce them horse soldiers all over the map. Where's yer skirmish line now, pal?

Entangle: Root them horsies to the ground, send in the grunts to mop up. (i.e. Entangle negates Screening.)

Perhaps some new Spirit or Mind applications might arise to meddle in this sort of thing?]

So at first impressions I don't think Hippus should start counting up the victories yet.

 

[mindlar]

From the unit thread:

Fourthly - some undead specifics ideas:

*Undead perhaps cheaper than the standard units? Not merely no maintenance.
*If possible require 150% damage to kill (they must be completely destroyed not merely "mortally wounded". Though this is what i suggested earlier, and may be impossible.

-Qes

Instead of extra HPs, I'd think that some undead should get a parting shot ability to represent the extra effort to kill them. Parting shot would work the opposite of first strike and allow the defeated undead unit an extra strike after it died.

I could really see this being done on other units like berserkers and skeletons. Both of them are typically thought of as continuing to fight after their deaths.

 

[Grey Fox]

I see the 112 tier-2 religious units as stop-gap troops, not as the prime example of that unit type. I look at 'em as religiously-motivated militia. Levees. (The sort of units King Edward send into battle against unkempt Scots instead of using up expensive arrows.) They let a civ obtain some capability in that area, but of lesser quality and at an inefficient cost. Civs that have put in the resources to learn specific warmaking techs should be able to field units superior to the militia version. All just IMO of course.

The Drown of the OO are a bit of an exception to this genral rule. Their 4 STR is pretty tough for their era, but the hammer inefficiency remains. It would not be FfH if every rule of thumb was not broken at least once.

Well the leaves archers are more expensive then regular archers. (atleast last time I checked)

 

[loki1232]

Hey Kael-how hard would it be to code an ability: Gift of the Axe. This would bring up a targeted spell that transfers Orthus' axe to anotehr unit in the stack.

 

[Grey Fox]

Hey Kael-how hard would it be to code an ability: Gift of the Axe. This would bring up a targeted spell that transfers Orthus' axe to anotehr unit in the stack.

I think Orthus would lose his charm if he started handing out his axe.

 

[loki1232]

....
I mena this for all of the people always wanting to give the axe to their late game heros and stuff. (once Orthus is dead, and the ai probably won't use this at all anyways)

 

[Grey Fox]

....
I mena this for all of the people always wanting to give the axe to their late game heros and stuff. (once Orthus is dead, and the ai probably won't use this at all anyways)

Hehe, yeah I didnt think that far. I think I was too occupied with thinking about Orthus. In this MP game we just played, 4 players FFA with Raging Barbs, there were 2 players who played as the Clan of Embers. And when Orthus spawned 1 tile from my borders, it took them like 2-3 turns to declare war on me to *protect* their king. I ended up Pop-Rushing Saverous and killing orthus and then instead of retribution bringing peace to the area.

 

[QES]

From the unit thread:



Instead of extra HPs, I'd think that some undead should get a parting shot ability to represent the extra effort to kill them. Parting shot would work the opposite of first strike and allow the defeated undead unit an extra strike after it died.

I could really see this being done on other units like berserkers and skeletons. Both of them are typically thought of as continuing to fight after their deaths.

I sorta dig this idea, it needs more thought.
-Qes

 

[Nikis-Knight]

I think Heroic strength should be tied to level and not Combat, if possible, since it discourages all other promotions.

 

[QES]

I think Heroic strength should be tied to level and not Combat, if possible, since it discourages all other promotions.

This is VERY true.
-Qes

EDIT: Although, I should point out, any random combat promotion is more valueable than the heroic promotion (on a strict basis) for units with base strengths of above 5. As 20% of 5 is 1. Heroic strength is a +1 str. Now, if you've a load of other bonuses, then the Heroic becomes compouned in value, again being awesome. But generally, its smart to pike +% over the heroic str after a base of 5 str.

 

[Grey Fox]

This is VERY true.
-Qes

EDIT: Although, I should point out, any random combat promotion is more valueable than the heroic promotion (on a strict basis) for units with base strengths of above 5. As 20% of 5 is 1. Heroic strength is a +1 str. Now, if you've a load of other bonuses, then the Heroic becomes compouned in value, again being awesome. But generally, its smart to pike +% over the heroic str after a base of 5 str.

Well, as +1 Str works in every battle, just like combat promotions, and as it increases the effeciency of every other % str based promotion, I'd think it's still good to increase STR over many other promotions. Going from 9 to 10 might be a 10% increase, but its also 10% increase on every promotion the unit already has. Also being at 50% HP means you have 5 STR not 4.5.

 

[QES]

Well, as +1 Str works in every battle, just like combat promotions, and as it increases the effeciency of every other % str based promotion, I'd think it's still good to increase STR over many other promotions. Going from 9 to 10 might be a 10% increase, but its also 10% increase on every promotion the unit already has. Also being at 50% HP means you have 5 STR not 4.5.

Yeah, i know its not wholey across the board, hence the "Strict" interpretation of it.
-Qes

 

[Kael]

Hey Kael-how hard would it be to code an ability: Gift of the Axe. This would bring up a targeted spell that transfers Orthus' axe to anotehr unit in the stack.

Hmm... its pretty easy to do. Let me see what I can do.

 

[loki1232]

Yes!!! Saverous Massacres Coming Up!

 

[Maniac]

How about adding defensive withdrawals to the flanking promotions?

	def onCombatResult(self, argsList):
		'Combat Result'
		pWinner,pLoser = argsList
		playerX = PyPlayer(pWinner.getOwner())
		unitX = PyInfo.UnitInfo(pWinner.getUnitType())
		playerY = PyPlayer(pLoser.getOwner())
		unitY = PyInfo.UnitInfo(pLoser.getUnitType())
		pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pWinner.getOwner())
		bUncaptured = True

		pLPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pLoser.getOwner())
		iRoot = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_ROOT')
		iFlanking1 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING1')
		iFlanking2 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING2')
		iFlanking3 = gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_FLANKING3')

		iRnd = CyGame().getSorenRandNum(100, "Maniac")
		if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iRoot):
			iRnd = iRnd - 150
		if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iFlanking1):
			iRnd = iRnd + 20
		if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iFlanking2):
			iRnd = iRnd + 20
		if pLoser.isHasPromotion(iFlanking3):
			iRnd = iRnd + 10
		if pWinner.isHasPromotion(iFlanking1):
			iRnd = iRnd - 20
		if pWinner.isHasPromotion(iFlanking2):
			iRnd = iRnd - 20
		if pWinner.isHasPromotion(iFlanking3):
			iRnd = iRnd - 10
		if iRnd >= 101:
			pPlot = cf.FFHFindClearPlot(pLoser, -1)
			if pPlot != -1:
				newUnit = pLPlayer.initUnit(pLoser.getUnitType(), pPlot.getX(), pPlot.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI)
				CyInterface().addMessage(pWinner.getOwner(),True,25,'Our enemies flee like cowards!','AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Highscores/Warp.dds',ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.getY(),True,True)
				CyInterface().addMessage(pLoser.getOwner(),True,25,'Tactical retreat succesful.','AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,'Art/Interface/Buttons/Highscores/Warp.dds',ColorTypes(8),pPlot.getX(),pPlot.getY(),True,True)
				newUnit.setDamage(95, True)
				newUnit.setExperience(pLoser.getExperience(), -1)
				newUnit.setLevel(pLoser.getLevel())
				for iCount in range(gc.getNumPromotionInfos()):
					if (pLoser.isHasPromotion(iCount)):
						newUnit.setHasPromotion(iCount, True)

 

[loki1232]

Sweet! (perhaps we could also include something tso that catapults defend the stack extra since they can now withdraw)