Design: Units

[loki1232]

Rabbit is going to try to make a winged swordsman for us. I figure if we can get that we can start making angels like this with a little skinning work.

Reality ruins my life once again. Is rabbit using the SDK for his uber models? It seems like if you can get angels, there isn't much you can't get.

 

[Kael]

Reality ruins my life once again. Is rabbit using the SDK for his uber models? It seems like if you can get angels, there isn't much you can't get.

No, just those 3dsmax plugins from here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159481

The SDK doesnt have anyting to do with graphics, its just code.

 

[loki1232]

Another example is that only the elves get elven units. However, anyone with a nature node can build restorer-an upgraded druid with more spell abilities. Also upgrades land quicker.

 

[Kael]

We have a mix of 4 Unit granting methods:

1. Normal unit tree (all the shared units, warriors, longbowmen, etc). Units granted to all civs (in general). We probably own't be adding many units here, maybe a few ships, but this unit tree is pretty solid.

2. UU's. Units that replace units in the normal tech tree for a specific civ. The non-human civs will have tons of these. The human civs could have none.

3. Resource upgrades. Upgrades to existing units that are only available if a specific resource is available. This resource could be Fire mana, Nightmares, Hellstones, Iron, Banannas, anything. Most mana types will probably allow a few of these.

4. Summons. Units that can be gained through spells. In general this means they will only last for a turn, but this law can also be broken. Summons are always other-worldly units.

 

[Lunargent]

We have a mix of 4 Unit granting methods:

1. Normal unit tree (all the shared units, warriors, longbowmen, etc). Units granted to all civs (in general). We probably own't be adding many units here, maybe a few ships, but this unit tree is pretty solid.

Yeah, there are a few holes here and there, but I can only see two right now, that I've pointed out earlier (spearmen as early anti-horse oh crap I went for bronzeworking and have no copper, and something needs to be worked in a bit later). I think all late game ships should start with march, after all, why can't a ship repair and move itself? It's not like the crew carries it!

2. UU's. Units that replace units in the normal tech tree for a specific civ. The non-human civs will have tons of these. The human civs could have none.

Any civ that doesn't have any UUs will be underpowered, and there's the 'why would I play the civ that doesn't get any cool new units' factor to consider.

3. Resource upgrades. Upgrades to existing units that are only available if a specific resource is available. This resource could be Fire mana, Nightmares, Hellstones, Iron, Banannas, anything. Most mana types will probably allow a few of these.

Perhaps there could be multiple dependencies in this as well. Hellstones are an upgrade to stone that give better horse units, but they require a fire node. Nightmares are an upgrade to horses, but they require a darkness, mind, or chaos node, etc etc.

4. Summons. Units that can be gained through spells. In general this means they will only last for a turn, but this law can also be broken. Summons are always other-worldly units.

Perhaps some summoned units can be made to stick around, for a price. Summon a powerful demon that requires sacrifice of a population point in a random city somewhere in the empire per turn he stays......but I see AI as a problem here.

 

[Kael]

Yeah, there are a few holes here and there, but I can only see two right now, that I've pointed out earlier (spearmen as early anti-horse oh crap I went for bronzeworking and have no copper, and something needs to be worked in a bit later). I think all late game ships should start with march, after all, why can't a ship repair and move itself? It's not like the crew carries it!

Ships typically have to moor to inact repairs.

Any civ that doesn't have any UUs will be underpowered, and there's the 'why would I play the civ that doesn't get any cool new units' factor to consider.

They are underpowered only if everything else is equal, which we aren't assuming. We will need a reason players will want to play every Civ, I wouldn't assume new units will be that reason in every case. Remember that since each civ starts with a different mana node for free all the units that that mana node offers will be available to them from the begining.

Perhaps there could be multiple dependencies in this as well. Hellstones are an upgrade to stone that give better horse units, but they require a fire node. Nightmares are an upgrade to horses, but they require a darkness, mind, or chaos node, etc etc.

Definitly. We will have to make sure it balances out. I don't want players to have to spend to much time trying to get all of the requirements for some unit. But in certain big cases it might make sense. For example the Armageddon spells and Avatars might take multiple reosurces and mana types.

Perhaps some summoned units can be made to stick around, for a price. Summon a powerful demon that requires sacrifice of a population point in a random city somewhere in the empire per turn he stays......but I see AI as a problem here.

Yeap, thats exactly the challenge. Im really interested in the Mercenary Mod though and being able to stick fantasy creatures in it.

 

[loki1232]

We have a mix of 4 Unit granting methods:

1. Normal unit tree (all the shared units, warriors, longbowmen, etc). Units granted to all civs (in general). We probably own't be adding many units here, maybe a few ships, but this unit tree is pretty solid.

2. UU's. Units that replace units in the normal tech tree for a specific civ. The non-human civs will have tons of these. The human civs could have none.

3. Resource upgrades. Upgrades to existing units that are only available if a specific resource is available. This resource could be Fire mana, Nightmares, Hellstones, Iron, Banannas, anything. Most mana types will probably allow a few of these.

4. Summons. Units that can be gained through spells. In general this means they will only last for a turn, but this law can also be broken. Summons are always other-worldly units.

1. I agree with this stuff.
(ships should only have march up to a certain point, like 3/4)

2. This will balance out the malakim and elohim which have no obvious UU's.

3. So the mana upgrades will be the most important of these?

4. I don't think that you should include mercenaries in this.

 

[Kael]

1. I agree with this stuff.
(ships should only have march up to a certain point, like 3/4)

2. This will balance out the malakim and elohim which have no obvious UU's.

3. So the mana upgrades will be the most important of these?

Yeap.

4. I don't think that you should include mercenaries in this.

Ahh, good point. Have you played with the mercenaries mod, if so, whats your impression of it?

 

[loki1232]

Ahh, good point. Have you played with the mercenaries mod, if so, whats your impression of it?

I haven't played with it yet. Is it downloadable? I haven't been paying close attention.

 

[loki1232]

We have a mix of 4 Unit granting methods:

2. UU's. Units that replace units in the normal tech tree for a specific civ. The non-human civs will have tons of these. The human civs could have none.

2. Aren't heros under this? So each civ would have at least one.

5. I think that you forgot religion specific units. ie: crusader, paramander, lunatic.

 

[loki1232]

I was just using some shadows to kill an enemy civ, and i noticed that the anim is kinda lame. What if they had the panther and an assasin, both of them transparent.

 

[Kael]

I was just using some shadows to kill an enemy civ, and i noticed that the anim is kinda lame. What if they had the panther and an assasin, both of them transparent.

Right now, I can't make anything but animals transparent. some units use their alpha layer for transparency but most use it for the civ color. Since animals weren't supposed to have a civ color they can be made transparent. Hopefully this will change soon with the progress the 3d modelers are making.

 

[loki1232]

Fire Mana Units:
+Fire Elemental (created by the Conjure Fire Elemental spell)
+Fireball (created by the Fireball spell)
+Meteor (created by the Meteor Swarm spell)

I think that some of these mana units are kinda cheesy. They aren't about being able to get un upgrade because you have a magic node, they are simply summoned units.
ie: fireballs, water elementals, air elementals.
Instead, I think that you should have more interesting units.
ie: fire gives fire archers, demolition ship, fledgling dragon (weak dragon with fire spellcasting)

 

[Kael]

I think that some of these mana units are kinda cheesy. They aren't about being able to get un upgrade because you have a magic node, they are simply summoned units.
ie: fireballs, water elementals, air elementals.
Instead, I think that you should have more interesting units.
ie: fire gives fire archers, demolition ship, fledgling dragon (weak dragon with fire spellcasting)

I have no intention of making them buildable, I was just listing them there as a common place to put the fire units. In general you should never be able to build a unit you can summon and vise-versa.

 

[loki1232]

Yes, but theoretically you could get water elementals without a water node if you worshipped the OO.
Also, are we going to make it so that your spellcasters can only learn spells you have a node of?
Also, i really think that the balseraphs should get a magician unit that was a combination mage and conjurer. Could both summon and cast normally.

 

[Kael]

Yes, but theoretically you could get water elementals without a water node if you worshipped the OO.
Also, are we going to make it so that your spellcasters can only learn spells you have a node of?
Also, i really think that the balseraphs should get a magician unit that was a combination mage and conjurer. Could both summon and cast normally.

I assume you mean the Sheaim (Balseraphs are the carnival folk). And in effect the Sheaim already have this ability, they have the Summoner Trait which means that all of their mages get the Summoner 2 promotion for free and all archmages get Summoner 3 for free. So their mages cast summoning and sorcery spells equally.

But I think you implementation of the idea is much cleaner. Just UU the conjurer and mage into a single unit that gets both. I'll make the change.

And the plan was to make mages get spells for free of the nodes you control, but they can learn spells outside of the controled nodes by buying them with promotions.

 

[loki1232]

A couple of things:
a) I think that the dark elf assasin should be the shadow elf or something. Dark elf assasin sounds like a name from vanilla civIII
b) Are you gonna make werewolves into a new creature type? That would be pretty cool. Another use for silver (cities with silver in their radius give their units a free werewolf slaying promotion)
c) I think that anyone with air mana should be able to build a line of flying units. Pegasus--Griffin--War Griffin
d) For chaos unit names how about Demon spawn and Crazed Beastling
e) Earth mana should allow you to build a clay golem.

 

[loki1232]

I think that the lanum should have a ship that can enslave other ships.
Also, they should have a unit with amphibious that can attack enemy ships if it is carried by one of their ships.

 

[Lunargent]

There were dark elves in vanilla civ III? We need a dubious smiley.

The silver resource has been replaced with Mithril.

Flying units means that we have to add in aerial defenses, but they'd be cool.

 

[Kael]

A couple of things:
a) I think that the dark elf assasin should be the shadow elf or something. Dark elf assasin sounds like a name from vanilla civIII
b) Are you gonna make werewolves into a new creature type? That would be pretty cool. Another use for silver (cities with silver in their radius give their units a free werewolf slaying promotion)
c) I think that anyone with air mana should be able to build a line of flying units. Pegasus--Griffin--War Griffin
d) For chaos unit names how about Demon spawn and Crazed Beastling
e) Earth mana should allow you to build a clay golem.

Definitly need a more flavorful name for the dark elf assassin, all of the "civ name class" names are in just as placeholders for now.

I will probably move werewolves to animals so that the anti-aniaml bonus's work against them.

Air units would be be awesome, but its probably going to be a while before we have enough models to do them well. They probably won't be in phase 2.

I like the chaos unit names!