Design: Units

[Bad Player]

Kael can you make OO allow production of The Drown even after fanatacism has been discovered so that you can upgrade to Stygian Guard and Eilodon with water walking!!??


Also what is this vampire strategy you talk of? I must know!!!

 

[eerr]

drown... stygian guards... vampires...
maybe if you gave a level 6 warrior vampirism you could make an undead demonic vampiric stygian guard!(with water walking!)

 

[Sareln]

drown... stygian guards... vampires...
maybe if you gave a level 6 warrior vampirism you could make an undead demonic vampiric stygian guard!

I think that demons can't gain vampirism... or at least, you can't impart vampirism to Saverous, but you can give it to Hemah.

 

[eerr]

well you can only gift it to living units i believe... but if you upgrade that warrior to a drown, then a stygian guard you might be able to an undead demonic vampiric stygian guard(upgrades to eidolon)

 

[Lord Vermillion]

Hmm, dont know if this has already been covered in this forum, but what about reinstating regicide, and making the leader (Alexis of Calabim for example) a hero? I think that would be pretty cool, balancing would be a big issue, but might be worth it. Just a thought.

Again, if this has already been covered, I apologize.

 

[Sureshot]

ya i miss regicide

 

[Maniac]

Luonnotar

Neat.
Will these stories be told in the last scenario phase of Fall from Heaven?

 

[loki1232]

Some of them certainly.

 

[Kael]

Neat.
Will these stories be told in the last scenario phase of Fall from Heaven?

Yeah, Loki's rights. Some will be told, some won't. Its 17 years of gaming and I could spend days talking about stories. There is no way I could try to tell all of them.

Besides, a lot of time what makes a good RPG story doesnt make for a good strategy game story. And I dont want to tell all the stories anyway, Ideally I would like FfH to be a world where people can make their own stories.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Hmm, dont know if this has already been covered in this forum, but what about reinstating regicide, and making the leader (Alexis of Calabim for example) a hero? I think that would be pretty cool, balancing would be a big issue, but might be worth it. Just a thought.

Again, if this has already been covered, I apologize.

Another thought, outside of regicide that might be neat, would be if the alternate leader for you civ was availible as a hero, i.e, if Kandros was your leader, Arturus would be a buildable hero.
I don't think that's worth doing, just an interesting idea.

 

[Maniac]

Yeah, Loki's rights. Some will be told, some won't. Its 17 years of gaming and I could spend days talking about stories. There is no way I could try to tell all of them.

Don't you have them on your harddisk, eg Tale of Saverous?

 

[Kael]

Don't you have them on your harddisk, eg Tale of Saverous?

Yeah I have a lot of D&D games I wrote on my hard drive and unfinished short stories. But most are your typical DM's notes that were never meant to be legible to anyone but me.

Here is, for example, a handout that was given to the players after one of their games. A summary of what had happened so far in this adventure:

Spoiler :

Winters Run - Game 4 “Kephets Curse part 2” Bolg Murg Orthus
-------- -------- --------
Visiting Luciaqua, talking about Ethne 1 1 1
Visiting August Eril, solving Andrew Weatherby’s murder 3 3 3
Visiting Della Windibank, asking about the painting 1 1 1
Curing Toff’s (the Windibank family dog) depression 1 0 0
Helping Kael, Memories Remain on the Tower of Eyes members 3 3 3
Questioning Philip Travis, his theories of this plane being Hell 1 1 1
Meeting Tinia of the Temple of the Abyss 1 1 1
Experimenting with the Mist 2 2 2
Impersonating Akram Fahmi on very short notice 2 3 2
Following the mob to Abdullah Al-Suad’s house 1 0 1
Capturing and questioning Lucius 3 3 3
Meeting Malchavic again, Solving James Windibank’s murder 3 3 3
Successfully completed Kephet’s Curse adventure 7 7 7
-------- -------- --------
29 28 28

Bonus:
All characters- solving the Altar of Perception riddles
+1 rank Perception
+2 max ranks Percpetion
3 Character points

Treasure:

Major Characters:
Barnaxus- Wood Golem created by Bolg.
Capria- Incarnation of Death for Kadath.
Cu Roi- Archmage of Aaron’s Valley.
Ethne- Mystic that traveled with the party, currently missing.
Kael- Elven Vampire attempting to receive training as an Archmage
Khord NuValle, King- King of Braduk, drinking buddies with Orthus and wielder of the Matron Essendi.
Lanthis- Acolyte of the Temple of Osiris in Alexandria.
Malchavic- Archmage of Prespur.
Menolly NuValle, Queen, Archmage- Queen and Archmage of Braduk, friends with Bolg.
Pontif Elim- Priest of the Temple of Osiris in Alexandria, a drunk.
Tephus the Mistwalker, Archmage- Archmage of Alexandria, seems to resent the party.
Tonaley- Warrior currently dominated by Bolg.

Minor Characters:
Andrew Weatherby- Archeology student and member of the Weatherby’s of Prespur, killed by August Eril
Anthony Uruburu- Deckhand on the Chaste Wind and a ladies man.
Astar- Lich door guard at Be’lan T’Seraa’s Vampire Aerie.
August Eril- Warder at the Tower of Eyes in Prespur. Killed Andrew Weatherby to avenge Ebenizer Turnbull.
Axium- The first Wood Golem Bolg made?
Balin- Pirate leader. Former leader of the Barren Tower and owner of a Ship in a Bottle.
Be’lan T’Seraa- Leader of the Vampires of Prespur.
Brother Egil- Hired Barnaxus, Kendol and Lanthis to find his friend Lucius.
Captain Ostanes- Head of the guardsmen of Alexandria, bears no love for the party.
Cethlion- former guardsman of Rusa, now he lives in Prespur with Shannon.
Della Windibank- James Windibanks widow and mother to their three children.
Ebenizer Turnbull- Archeologist who found Kephet’s remains, killed by Andrew Weatherby
Fair- “Working girl” in Braduk. Unsuccessfully tried to seduce King Khord.
Goroff Grist, Adjuticator- Head of the Halls of Justice in Alexandria, a dwarf.
Herman Ramsey, Captain- Captain of the ship the Chaste Wind.
James Caster- Thieves Guild of Prespur member responsible for monitoring the Vampires.
James Windibank- Curator at Prespur’s Museum of Antiquities, killed by “Kephet’s Curse”.
Janna- Female ghost that haunts the Temple of Sucellus in Alexandria.
Justin “Needles” Fek- Former Thief now hiding in Braduk, rescued by the party.
Kendol- Former bouncer for Macauleys Gambling House and adventurer. Killed by the Cult of Persephone.
Kephet- Winged skeleton found outside of Alexandria.
Lita, “Witch”- Woman who was killed at the Halls of Justice and who broke the Clock tower.
Louise Fenwick- Merrill Fenwicks emotionally abused wife, killed by Merril following the parties intervention.
Luciaqua- Marid that lives in Prespur.
Lucius- Librarian who lost years of his memory or pirate leader? Wanted to destroy the Orb of Storms.
Merrill Fenwick- Abusive husband, turned into a toad by Bolg, then “remade” into Della Windibanks relative
Milas Aether- Proprietor of the Hooded Lantern of Prespur.
Murigen- Pirate leader. Blue tatoos on his left arm. Wants to destroy the Matron Essendi.
Nisien- 17 year old girl, rescued from a tragic circus fire by Murg. Daughter to a ships captain.
Philip Travis- Archeology student in Prespur.
Pilot- Malchavic’s student.
Rhianon Fek- Justin’s wife, living with him in Braduk.
Rusa Pariek- Prominant artist, killed by Orthus.
Shannon- Rusa’s former slave, she ran off to Prespur with Cethlion.
Silva Pariek- Rusa’s daughter, inheritor of his considerable estate.
Simon of Gitta- Nobleman of Alexandria, arena fighter.
Solomon Doone- Excitable curator of the Museum of Antiquities in Prespur
Sonna- Temple of the Silver Moon member who was looking over the party, priestess of Sirona.
Staffers, Physician- Head physician of Alexandria.
Timble- Half-Orc carriage driver in Prespur.
Tinia- Demoness leader of the Temple of the Veil of Prespur
Valin Fand, Sargent- Head of the Royal guard of Braduk, Bolg created a magical arm for him.

Places:
Alexandria the Gleaming- Mountaintop city.
Brass Orchid Tavern- Friendly tavern and Pontif Elim’s favorite hangout.
Castle of Alexandria- Home of the guard, Tephus and the king of Alexandria.
Clock Tower Plaza- Open plaza with a formorly broken clock tower at its center.
Docks- The place where ships park.
Emerald Dome- Temple of Kilmorph.
Halls of Judgement- The courthouses of Alexandria.
Lighthouse- Ancient building, being fortified since the Clock towers repair.
Macauley’s Gambling House- Gambling house with a fighting arena below.
Petal’s in the Clouds- Flower shop right across from the Temple of Sucellus.
Temple of Sucellus- The parties home.
Tephus’s Gate- Gate leading out into the Mists.
Venra Library- Library specializing in the identification and classification of outer planar creatures.
Aarons Valley- Fertile valley walled off from the mists.
Barren Tower- Looks to have been used to store books, now empty.
Braduk the Burning- City built around a volcanic mountain.
Castle of Braduk- Home of King Khord and Menolly.
Docks- An elevator transports people from the docks to the city.
Joffels All You Can Eat Kitchen Pit- Great cooking pit by the docks, Orthus costs extra.
Promonade- The open center of Braduk, around the lava pit.
Reidman Road- An oddly angled road in the otherwise symetrical city
Sacred Sword- Murgs old fighting school. A Portal to the Vault of Ceridwen is in the basement.
Smoking Cellar Tavern- A dark tavern.
Striped Minotaur Circus- Lively circus right off of the Promonade, home of a tragic fire.
Temple of Light- Large temple built right at the edge of the lava.
Mag Mor- An underground road that connects Alexandria and Aarons Valley.
Prespur of the Storms- City with a permanent thunderstorm bound over it.
Bloodgem Park- Park at the heart of Prespur’s Undercity.
The Cellar- Malchavic’s Home
Cliffs of Hastur- Dark cliffs populated by powerful bat creatures.
Fields of Rest- Graveyards of Prespur.
Hooded Lantern- Merchant on the docks that sells goods for dealing with Prespurs storms
House of Spouts- Inn covered with funnels that makes decorative waterfalls all around the building.
Luciaqua’s Pool- Home of the Luciaqua and a great blue dragon.
Museum of Antiquities- Public institute showcasing several old items and maps of the cities of Kadath.
Red Haired Gentleman’s League- Front for the Thieves Guild
T’Seraa Manor- Home of Be’lan T’Seraa, leader of the Vampires of Prespur
Temple of the Veil- Temple in the center of Bloodgem Park.
Tower of Eyes- Tower that guards the Orb of Storms.
Twilight Gap- Two jagged precipices with an odd darkness between them outside of Prespur.
Undercity- Huge Caveran underneath Prespur that contains most of the city.
Vampire Aerie- Vampire hideout near Twilight Gap.
Weatherby Manor- Home of a prominent family of merchants that supply blood to the Vampires.
Serannian- Flying city of Archmages..

Rumors:
Alexandria used to be a huge temple to Mulcarn, although it has gone through a great deal of renovation since.
Another Bolg “in White” helped dupe King Khord and was killed in Alexandria by a spirit that looked like Bolg.
Capria was a thief and one of the first people to visit this plane hundreds of years ago.
Construction is not allowed in Braduk to maintain the design of the city.
Kadath (this plane) is hell and Tinia of the Temple of the Veil is its ruler.
Kadath is Mulcarn’s dead body and the mist is his blood.
“Pirates” live in the mists, maybe an entire society exists beneath it.
Prespur appeared to have been full of fortifications and barracks but contained no bathrooms or kitchens.
Seven “Devil’s Horns” in Prespur will call aid to the city, although one is lost.
The Festival of Winter is held once every 10 years and heralds the return of Mulcarn.
The Festival of Winter will be held in Alexandria on December 21st.

Timeline:

1609 Nov 15 The party kills Aramus and recovers the Godslayer
Nov 27 The party begins searching the Crypt of Viscaris

1610 Jul 8 The party moves to Kadath as ambassadors for the Temple of the Silver Moon

1611 Mar 25 The party meets Ethne and begins traveling with her

1614 Nov 14 The party enters the mists
Nov 17 Murg and Orthus are teleported to the temple by Orthus’s ring, Orthus has all of Bolgs magical items
Bolg is found the same day in the graveyard of the Temple of Osiris in Alexandria

Game 1
Dec 4 The party awakens, meets several people in Alexandria and goes to the Temple of Subellus
Dec 5 The party hears the story of Ethne, Rusa Pariek and Justin Fek.
After wandering around town a bit the party sets off for Braduk.

Game 2
Dec 6 The party arrives in Braduk, finds the Matron Essendi, Menolly and those responsible for duping the King
Dec 7 The party discovers the Sacred Sword and the portal to the Vault of Ceridwen.

Game 3
Dec 7 The party sails to Prespur so Bolg can receive Malchavics recommendation.
Dec 8 The party arrives in Prespur and has to wait to meet with Malchavic.
Dec 9 Bolg meets with Malchavic and begins investigating the mystery of Kephets Curse.

Game 4
Dec 10 The party solves the mystery of Kephet’s Curse.

What you will probably notice is that although some names and such will seem familiar, most of it is unrecognizable. Thats just because I use the same mythology and flavor I had in the D&D game but a D&D game is a completly different medium than a strategy game. So some people stay the same, this was from the adventure that Barnaxus comes from and he remains in the Mod as a wood golem hero (though I asked someone else to write his history as the "real" history is pretty dull and doesn't do justice to him being a hero).

You also see people mentioned like Ethne and Kael who you are familiar with, although Ethne was changed for the mod (she was never onstage in the D&D game, she was just one of those legendary people that is talked about but never met). Capria is mentioned too, but thats a reuse of the name (Some of the names I liked most I reused over the years and with differeing play groups).

And you will probably find at least half a dozen names from the great people lists in the above.

The saddest part is I dont remember some of what the above stuff refers to. Like apparently I gave the party some character points (kinda like XP in the system we used) for curing a digs depression. I have no idea what that was about. I might have it in the actual notes I wrote for the mod, but those were only written to remind myself of what I needed to know enough to run the game. So when I look back on it now it confuses me.

For example, looking through my writeup for the game above I come across this dialog I had for an intial meeting. Apparently Bolg (a player) was attempting to become an archmage and needed the approval of 4 existing archmages to get the training. This was from a meeting with one of those archmages:

“It has been more than a year since the last mage came requesting my recommendation for the Archmage training of Serranian and now I have two. I understand that you know each other as well, the planes are a very small place indeed.

But you have not come to me to renew aquaintencences, you want my blessing and I will give that if you learn the lesson I am to teach. An archmage is not just a powerful mage, there are things that deffererintiate him from a common spellcaster. Each of these lessons is meant to teach you one of these things. Mine is simple. An Archmage is effective!

It is not the power of an Archmages spell that seperates him from the rest but the impact these spells have. An archmage is not bound to conventions of one minute political or morale situation. His goals superseed these, if they don’t then he is wasting his time pursuing them. There is none of this half hearted flag chasing for the cause of the moment. Set your mind upon a task and accomplish it. If your goal cannot be accomplished with discrete means be obvious, if it cant be accomplished with peaceful means, be violent. If you are not determined to do whats nessesary to accomplish these goals, whatever they are, then give up now.”

If Malchavic is asked if this means Archmages have to be evil he will respond:

“You worry me by even asking that. You can call it evil, Im sure some would, you could call it the greater good, you can call whatever you want. What I am telling you is to ignore petty tasks. If you aren’t willing to kill, steal, or lie to accomplish these goals then your goals do not befit an Archmage. Im not saying that you should steal fruit because you don’t have money, this isn’t for all of that petty crap. Im not saying that you should rape, pillage and torture, I can't think of the goal that would require such behavior or that couldn’t be reached using other means. But if a goodly priest has an artifact that is needed to kill a powerful demon and he refuses to allow me use of it to accomplish my task I will take it. Some would say theft is evil and that theft from a goodly priest is even more evil. An Archmage isn’t bound by those peoples convictions.

If asked specifically about killing he will answer:

“A king may send ten thousand troops into battle knowing half of these will not return. One could say he has killed five thousand goodly men. You would certainly agree that you don’t have to wield the hatchet to be a mans executioner. I would say that some Kings goals are important enough to warrant the death of those men and most men would agree. What then is the difference between the kings “noble” goals and our own. Most kings short sighted reasons for warfare don’t compare to the importance of tasks we are pursuing. And such if I were to kill five thousand men for my goals it would be no different.

After Kael and Bolg have asked their questions Malchavic will continue.

To teach this lesson, and to prove your own competence I have a task for each of you. Kael, I have reason to believe that someone is attempting to penetrate the Tower of Eyes. I want you to find out who is doing it and why. I have told the Towers head, Ke’ree Melange, to expect you as my embesary. Bolg there has been three murders involving an interesting skeleton that is being kept at our own Museum of Antiquities. Most blame the skeleton or some curse that surrounds it but I have personally looked into it and find no trace of arcane or divine magic about it. Find out who killed these three men and why. Curator Solomon Doone is expecting you as well.

Since you are both going to prove to be such effective investigators I think a day is more than enough time for you to provide me this information. Let us say that we will meet back here tomorrow at this time, 9am precisely, and you will give me the answers to my questions.

 

[Maniac]

What you will probably notice is that although some names and such will seem familiar, most of it is unrecognizable.

Still funny to read though.

Kael- Elven Vampire attempting to receive training as an Archmage

 

[Kael]

Still funny to read though.

Yeap, I have long said that I was named after the FfH character Kael, not the other way around.

 

[Jono]

Who was the DM in that campaign and how long ago was it played? If you weren't the DM, who were you in the campaign?

 

[Kael]

Who was the DM in that campaign and how long ago was it played? If you weren't the DM, who were you in the campaign?

I was the DM. Kael was just one of many NPC's. But I liked the name so when I started using a name online its the one I used.

 

[loki1232]

Unit that steals promotions from units it defeats? (Psychorg) Corlindale suggests we could balance this by only allowing the unit to hold a certain number of promotions at once.

Unit whose iCombat raises a little each time it wins a combat instead of through promotions (bebematos). Would require a saveable icombat rating on units.

"Slivers"- units that dont gain levels but have the abilities of all other "sliver" units. (bebematos)

1. Love the stealing promotions idea. What if this unit did not get promotions in the normal way, just by stealing? If you gave a limit of 3 of these then I think it would be balanced without making a promotion limit since this unit can't gain a promotion twice, so no matter how many units with combat I it kills, it only gets one promotion.
I would recommend it as an AV UU. Maybe medium strength and medium cost during t3? The idea being an interesting unit that adds some moreflavor to the AV and can be great in certain situations. (against a raider civ since all of their unitsstart with commando). Of course it wouldn't get religious promotions (already an AV unit), but it could get the evangelist promotion from demgaugs.

2. I don't think that the slowly raising iCombat is really interesting, and it would require a lot of programming. However, it could be nice as a golem.
I imagine maybe the bone golem could work like this. Start out medium for a t4 unit, but each time it kills the iCombat gets stronger. This would instead of the Immortal promotion (i believe bone golems replace immortals) so it would not be overpowering, but it might need an upwards limit (20?)
The other unit I could imagine it for is The War Machine. I don't like the idea of normal promotions for this guy, instead he'll just get bigger and bigger (like any self-respecting War Machine). Once again, maybe an upwards limit?

3. The problem with slivers is that IMO at least only slivers near each other should share abilities. However, would the ai really understand this?

 

[QES]

I was thinking about the golem buildings. Perhaps the gaurdsman one could be named Foundation of Law.
Could we have a way for golems to become siege weapons? Or at least replace the Luchuirp siege weapons with "Siege golems"(extra strength but can't level).
I would also really like it if there was a way for a golem to sacrifice itself and either summon a powerful unit, or distribute his hp among the rest of the golems in the stack.

I think that the Grigori Adventurers guild should give +1 happy since sometimes the Grigori have happiness problems.

I think golems in general need an overhaul. Not because of balance issues, but in theme. Why is a copper golem superior to an iron golem? Copper golems get city attack, iron get...well jack. Both are str 9.

I think Cavalry should also be replaced by golems. I wound up building a LOT of chariots and horsies because golems were A) too expensive to build during crisis, and B) because they were fast enough to get to the front.

Maybe some specialized golems. I just like variety, and honestly this civ is neat, but i never see a lot of golem building. Part of Luchurip benefits would be that maybe they'd only need a single building to produce many of their units. I realize the "archer" units will remain "dwarven" or rather the line of mortals for the luchirup.

Maybe make copper(bronze) and iron golems cheaper and weaker? Sort of make them into the fodder golems, and then add any the following?

Many of these could have similar strengths, but different specialties (outside of promotions)

Bronze Golem - (requires copper) replaces copper golem (bronze is strong, makes more sense)
Marble Golem - (requires marble) Golem adds happiness to a city (tis pretty)
Glass Golem - Replacement for Assassin? (Just a cosmetic change)
Stone Golem - (requires stone) Defensive Golem, gets defensive bonus (not just in city)
Electrum Golem - (Requires gold) Anti-Summon Golem
Magnatite Golem - Replacement for Shadow? (cosmetic change)
Old Clockwork golem becomes -> Adimantium Golem
New Clockwork golem - Replaces chariot (fast golem)
Gem Golem - (requires gems) High-tier fast golem, OR hard hitting national golem

EDIT: I'd just like to see golems filling more roles. And perhaps in variety. Cheap ones, expensive ones, ones intended for special use, others that are the core of the military.

 

[loki1232]

I think that a Valkryie would be a great barbarian medic.
3 strength, medic I. Cavalry type.

 

[loki1232]

QES-
I agree with you that more golems would be nice, however I don't think that cavalry or recongolems are a good idea. Maybe siege golems though.

And the thing with copper golems vs. iron golems isthat copper golems are available to everyone while iron golems are Luchuirp specific. And iron golems should be strength 10.