Designing America for Civ7

[Evie]

I mean, Canada was cut off from France several months every year by weather, and even when it wasn't, ships were scarce, and took weeks to make the crossing. And that's *before* the British arrived and completely cut Canadiens from France (which would be more than a century before Canadian independence). Even visitors to New France back when it was still New France observed how the Canadiens had their own culture.

(Similar arguments can be made for most of the other colonies - the cultures of the colonies existed long before the independent countries. It's hard to maintain cultural commonality when living on the wrong side of the ocean from each other.)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I mean, Canada was cut off from France several months every year by weather, and even when it wasn't, ships were scarce, and took weeks to make the crossing. And that's *before* the British arrived and completely cut Canadiens from France (which would be more than a century before Canadian independence). Even visitors to New France back when it was still New France observed how the Canadiens had their own culture.

(Similar arguments can be made for most of the other colonies - the cultures of the colonies existed long before the independent countries. It's hard to maintain cultural commonality when living on the wrong side of the ocean from each other.)

It is often overlooked that "Culture" is greatly influenced by physical surroundings, and the physical surroundings in the American colonies from Hudson's Bay to Tierra del Fuego were very different from anything in any of the "Mother Countries"

 

[Zaarin]

Although, bringing this back to America, until independence there was no "American" culture per se; the American identity was born in the fires of the Revolution--and in the smaller internal fires that followed. There was New England culture and New York culture and Pennsylvania culture (which also included the Delawares--there were two of them at the time) and Maryland culture and Virginia culture and Appalachia/North Carolina culture and Tidewater/Coastal North Carolina/South Carolina culture and Georgia culture, with some overlap in between but not a whole lot to make any of them regard each other as having much in common beyond, ironically, Englishness. Americans were confirmed royalists, far more so than the English, until well into the Revolution; even after open hostilities broke out there were still some idealistic colonists who believed or hoped the king would intervene on their behalf. (In the midst of all these colonial identities you also had a variety of subcultures, most of them religious, foreign, or both: French Huguenots, German Anabaptists, German Lutherans, Dutch Reformed, Swedish Lutherans, Scots-Irish Presbyterians, Scottish Presbyterians, English and Welsh Quakers, the Indigenous peoples, and, of course, African slaves, who themselves were from all over West Africa and created a kind of fusion culture in the South, especially the Carolinas. Oh, and small colonies of Jews, chiefly Sephardim at the time, in New York, Philadelphia, Newport, Charleston, and Savannah--small but usually wealthy and influential.)

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

I think much has already been said.

Leader. Doesn't matter to me. Although Dwight Eisenhower has not been tried yet. He would be interesting.

Building? No idea. I heard a Land Grant University mentioned. I imagine it would offer some sort of benefit to your extraction industries like farming, mining, and lumber yards, maybe in your more remote cities. That might be something to consider.

Unique unit 1. A settler unit, or pioneer, that can defend itself would be a welcome sight. Of course, historically, it might only be active in the Renaissance and Industrial eras when the game usually involves more ocean-going travel. I would add that whatever city it founds gains free ancient walls and a free granary to simulate the "boom towns" of the old west. Of course not many of them had walls, but maybe their unique animation when they defend themselves can be cowboys firing their six-shooters or something like that.

Unique unit 2. US Cavalry. I imagine it could move fairly quick and maybe has extra strength when fighting "Indians" (or in this game's case, hostile city state units).

Ability. I always wanted some sort of migration mechanic. Assuming Civ 7 would have this, maybe America can attract more immigrants depending on the amount of unimproved land it has in its borders.

 

[Evie]

Although, bringing this back to America, until independence there was no "American" culture per se; the American identity was born in the fires of the Revolution--and in the smaller internal fires that followed. There was New England culture and New York culture and Pennsylvania culture (which also included the Delawares--there were two of them at the time) and Maryland culture and Virginia culture and Appalachia/North Carolina culture and Tidewater/Coastal North Carolina/South Carolina culture and Georgia culture, with some overlap in between but not a whole lot to make any of them regard each other as having much in common beyond, ironically, Englishness. Americans were confirmed royalists, far more so than the English, until well into the Revolution; even after open hostilities broke out there were still some idealistic colonists who believed or hoped the king would intervene on their behalf. (In the midst of all these colonial identities you also had a variety of subcultures, most of them religious, foreign, or both: French Huguenots, German Anabaptists, German Lutherans, Dutch Reformed, Swedish Lutherans, Scots-Irish Presbyterians, Scottish Presbyterians, English and Welsh Quakers, the Indigenous peoples, and, of course, African slaves, who themselves were from all over West Africa and created a kind of fusion culture in the South, especially the Carolinas. Oh, and small colonies of Jews, chiefly Sephardim at the time, in New York, Philadelphia, Newport, Charleston, and Savannah--small but usually wealthy and influential.)

Very much agreed. I almost added that part, but figured it would detract from the core point.

More generally, I think we may want to avoid anything too obviously linked to US-Natives interactions. That doesn't mean an agricultural expansion theme can't be done, but maybe manifest destiny isn't the best term for it. Armed settlers on the other hand are just too much of an old western staple.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Although, bringing this back to America, until independence there was no "American" culture per se; the American identity was born in the fires of the Revolution--and in the smaller internal fires that followed. There was New England culture and New York culture and Pennsylvania culture (which also included the Delawares--there were two of them at the time) and Maryland culture and Virginia culture and Appalachia/North Carolina culture and Tidewater/Coastal North Carolina/South Carolina culture and Georgia culture, with some overlap in between but not a whole lot to make any of them regard each other as having much in common beyond, ironically, Englishness. Americans were confirmed royalists, far more so than the English, until well into the Revolution; even after open hostilities broke out there were still some idealistic colonists who believed or hoped the king would intervene on their behalf. (In the midst of all these colonial identities you also had a variety of subcultures, most of them religious, foreign, or both: French Huguenots, German Anabaptists, German Lutherans, Dutch Reformed, Swedish Lutherans, Scots-Irish Presbyterians, Scottish Presbyterians, English and Welsh Quakers, the Indigenous peoples, and, of course, African slaves, who themselves were from all over West Africa and created a kind of fusion culture in the South, especially the Carolinas. Oh, and small colonies of Jews, chiefly Sephardim at the time, in New York, Philadelphia, Newport, Charleston, and Savannah--small but usually wealthy and influential.)

It's easy to forget now that the American Colonies and United States were originally Plural, not Singular: even the completely "English" colonies were founded by different groups and for different purposes, which resulted in very different forms of "Englishness" - and that group does not include such very important Colonial foundations as New York (originally Dutch and very different from English sensibilities) or Pennsylvania (which had a strong German Dissenter Influence from almost the beginning) or the Carolinas (where the English dumped their Scots and Irish criminals, resulting in a sort of Proto-Australian Penal Colony Society, as I once heard a visiting Australian history professor describe it!)

All of which simply means that a Colonial American set of Uniques is a contradiction in terms when it comes to a Uniform Civilization - it would be like trying to set up a uniform Chinese Civilization from the Warring States period - an almost completely artificial creation.

However, that still leaves the 19th century Homesteader or Mountain Man, Yellow Leg Cavalry or 20th century Redleg Artillery as Unique Units, a Town Hall, Meeting House, Department Store, Film Studio, Shopping Mall as potential Unique Buildings, a Camp Meeting Unique Project, a Stockade Unique Improvement - even without a discussion of Leaders, of which America has, if anything, too many of them and no two with exactly the same potential Unique characteristics, there's a lot of Post-Colonial America to choose from.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Land Grant universities were also all designed to have Reserve Officer's Training Courses to train commanders for the US Army, so could provide a discount on forming new military units as well.

For Unique American Buildings, a short list:

Town Hall - Loyalty, Amenity bonuses. (This could be an alternative to the 'Meeting House' and more precise to America)
Department Store - major Gold, Amenity bonuses
Union Station - a railroad terminal used by all railroads serving a city: Trade, Amenity, Gold bonuses

Unique Improvement:
Stockade: a Fort built by US Military Engineers, can be built on unclaimed tiles within 4 tiles of tthe American border and turns the tile it's on and the surrounding adjacent tiles into American territory.

Possible Unique Units:

NOT the 'Minuteman' which was a mediocre militia outfit.

Actually 'Minutemen' which strongly associated with American Revolution were closely associated to 'New England' states. So often interchangebly used with 'Patriots' and so often used in modern professional sports themes for any teams originated from New England region. the most obivious is a 'Football team' (as Americans recognized) named 'New England Patriots' with ironically a logo of Continental Army troopers
AFAIK. 'Minutemen' were a name of militia units originally began as colonial defense forces for New England Colony, they began as Pike and Shot unit actually. i'm not sure if they were actually superior to other 'Militias' raised in North America at that time.
One thing for sure. George Washington, as a veteran of Seven Years War, favors a serious 'Standing Army' similiar to British Redcoats (which he was once leading) over Minutemen. he put a serious effort investing on raising an actual 'Army' and even military industrial facility to make weapons (particularly cannons). He's quite disdainful to Minutemen which lacks of 'full time' professionalism Redcoats have.

Legion of the United States - a Line Infantry unit with Scout-like vision and movement (the original Legion had line infantry, light infantry, light artillery and dragoons all in a regiment-sized unit, oe of the best Combined Arms units ever designed for rough country actions)

Is this unit really 'lag behind' in military fashion when it comes to uniform? Legion of the US did wore uniforms similiar to the Continental Army ones except with more 'French Revolution'/Early Napoleonic army tones.
Did Lewis and Clarke uses members of the Legion for his expedition towards Pacific through riverine routes?

Mounted Rifles - a Line Infantry unit that moves like Cavalry (the first 'Kentucky' Mounted Rifles rode in loose formation to the battlefield, but used mostly mounted or dismounted firepower with muskets, rifles, shotguns, and/or pistols)

Huh. Mounted Rifles a kind of linear infantry and not 'Cavalry'? if so this unit should requires a horse to train.

Yellow Legs - US Cavalry of the 19th century, no anti-mounted bonus applies when fighting them because they almost always fought dismounted.

So 'Rough Riders' in Civ6 is actually this unit? should this unit be able to build a fort?

 

[Zaarin]

More generally, I think we may want to avoid anything too obviously linked to US-Natives interactions. That doesn't mean an agricultural expansion theme can't be done, but maybe manifest destiny isn't the best term for it. Armed settlers on the other hand are just too much of an old western staple.

I actually considered calling the ability "Louisiana Purchase" but decided against it because of the Adams/Jefferson rivalry. It seemed a little mean-spirited to attach Adams to a civ whose ability was named after his friend-turned nemesis-turned friend's crowning achievement. Perhaps "Sea to Shining Sea" would be a better compromise?

Pennsylvania (which had a strong German Dissenter Influence from almost the beginning) or the Carolinas (where the English dumped their Scots and Irish criminals, resulting in a sort of Proto-Australian Penal Colony Society, as I once heard a visiting Australian history professor describe it!)

Yes, the practice which prompted Benjamin Franklin to suggest a gift of venomous snakes to England in return. A lot of free Scots-Irish and Germans landed in Pennsylvania and later moved to the Carolinas, also, as land prices in Pennsylvania rose, bringing their Presbyterian, Baptist, and German Dissenter religions with them to the fundamentally Anglican Upper South. The Carolinas (especially coastal North Carolina) were also the preferred home of French Huguenots.

no two with exactly the same potential Unique characteristics

William Henry Harrison and James Garfield?

Actually 'Minutemen' which strongly associated with American Revolution were closely associated to 'New England' states. So often interchangebly used with 'Patriots' and so often used in modern professional sports themes for any teams originated from New England region. the most obivious is a 'Football team' (as Americans recognized) named 'New England Patriots' with ironically a logo of Continental Army troopers
AFAIK. 'Minutemen' were a name of militia units originally began as colonial defense forces for New England Colony, they began as Pike and Shot unit actually. i'm not sure if they were actually superior to other 'Militias' raised in North America at that time.
One thing for sure. George Washington, as a veteran of Seven Years War, favors a serious 'Standing Army' similiar to British Redcoats (which he was once leading) over Minutemen. he put a serious effort investing on raising an actual 'Army' and even military industrial facility to make weapons (particularly cannons). He's quite disdainful to Minutemen which lacks of 'full time' professionalism Redcoats have.

The first Minutemen were raised in New England, but more were raised all over the colonies. It was the generic term for American irregulars, and they were horrifyingly green. Washington loathed them, and they were more a liability than an asset on the battlefield until Von Steuben drilled them into some fighting order. It was very important to Washington to keep the Revolution a conventional war, not a guerilla war or war of attrition, to minimize civilian casualties. (Guerilla warfare did break out in the Carolinas between Patriots and Loyalists, many of them motivated more by a desire to plunder their neighbors than by political sentiment. It was ugly, and the British and Continental leadership alike were appalled.)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

However, that still leaves the 19th century Homesteader or Mountain Man, Yellow Leg Cavalry or 20th century Redleg Artillery as Unique Units, a Town Hall, Meeting House, Department Store, Film Studio, Shopping Mall as potential Unique Buildings, a Camp Meeting Unique Project, a Stockade Unique Improvement - even without a discussion of Leaders, of which America has, if anything, too many of them and no two with exactly the same potential Unique characteristics, there's a lot of Post-Colonial America to choose from.

Every time I see Shopping Mall or Department Store I'm tempted to say that those uniques won't last long because once you research the Internet the yields of them will significantly decrease. Especially if diseases come back and you reach pandemic status.

I actually considered calling the ability "Louisiana Purchase" but decided against it because of the Adams/Jefferson rivalry. It seemed a little mean-spirited to attach Adams to a civ whose ability was named after his friend-turned nemesis-turned friend's crowning achievement. Perhaps "Sea to Shining Sea" would be a better compromise?

I have no problem with any of the names as they all fit the concept. I used "Louisiana Purchase" only because I had it as Jefferson's ability. "Sea to Shining Sea" would also work only because that named hasn't been used yet.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I actually considered calling the ability "Louisiana Purchase" but decided against it because of the Adams/Jefferson rivalry. It seemed a little mean-spirited to attach Adams to a civ whose ability was named after his friend-turned nemesis-turned friend's crowning achievement. Perhaps "Sea to Shining Sea" would be a better compromise?

"Manifest Destiny" would be accurate, but just as problematical . . .
"Sea to Shining Sea" works unless your in-game situation puts all the seas off-limits. "Westward, Ho!" has the same problem: if your neighbors to the west are the Mongols, Zulus and Brazil westward expansion is likely to involve Rough Riders and nuclear weapons, not Pioneers or Homesteaders.

The first Minutemen were raised in New England, but more were raised all over the colonies. It was the generic term for American irregulars, and they were horrifyingly green. Washington loathed them, and they were more a liability than an asset on the battlefield until Von Steuben drilled them into some fighting order. It was very important to Washington to keep the Revolution a conventional war, not a guerilla war or war of attrition, to minimize civilian casualties. (Guerilla warfare did break out in the Carolinas between Patriots and Loyalists, many of them motivated more by a desire to plunder their neighbors than by political sentiment. It was ugly, and the British and Continental leadership alike were appalled.)

Small correction: There were no Minutemen at Valley Forge: they had all long since gone home. The men at the winter encampment drilled by von Steuben were "Continentals", enlisted for longer duration but up until then not much better trained than the militia. Baron von Steuben was a Captain in the Prussian Army, which means he was directly responsible for the training of his company, and he turned out to be a master at it. His "Blue Book" of drill regulations remained standard in the US Army until 1814 and was still the basis for its drill regulations until the 1840s.
And, by the way, about 1/3 of the soldiers at Valley Forge did not speak English, which reinforces our discussion of the variety in the American Colonies: Von Steuben's drill directions and commands had to be translated into English, French, Dutch, and Scots-Irish!

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ This means Washington hypothesis of Standing Army similiar to British Redcoats are needed was correct, by then I think he wanted to phase out Minutemen in favor of Continental Army which can fight in a long campaign.

Did the Blue uniforms used by the Continental Army originated from American Provincials of the Seven Years War? (Which accompanied British units into Ticonderoga or any other French wood forts)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

. . . Is this unit really 'lag behind' in military fashion when it comes to uniform? Legion of the US did wore uniforms similiar to the Continental Army ones except with more 'French Revolution'/Early Napoleonic army tones.
Did Lewis and Clarke uses members of the Legion for his expedition towards Pacific through riverine routes?


Huh. Mounted Rifles a kind of linear infantry and not 'Cavalry'? if so this unit should requires a horse to train.


So 'Rough Riders' in Civ6 is actually this unit? should this unit be able to build a fort?

The Legion was in fact contemporary in "military fashion" of the 1790s when it was formed:

The leather helmet they adopted is almost identical to the helmet adopted by the Bavarian Army before and during the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars, for instance.

Mounted Rifles would NOT require Horses as a Resource: the Kentucky Thoroughbred horses were quite a ways in the future when the "Kentucky Mounted Rifles" were formed, and not being 'regular' cavalry they used just about anything on four legs that didn't bray.
While the Mounted Rifles were armed similarly to Linear Infantry, they fought in much looser formations and were better adapted to close country like the brush and forest of the Old Northwest and Canada north of Lakes Huron and Erie.

The US Cavalry of the late 19th century would be similar to the Rough Riders, who were after all simply the 1st Volunteer Cavalry Regiment in reality. Under the direction of Engineer Officers, US Army cavalry and infantry units both built frontier 'forts' or military encampments throughout the 19th century, both with and without stockades or artillery emplacements.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Heavy Frigate - the US 44-gun frigates of the post-Revolution: they could out-fight even small shps of the line.

What should this unit replaces? (generic) frigate or Ship of the Line ? (the US Navy did build a handful of SoTL, including 'Pennsylvania' four decker that took 20 years to complete only to be ill designed. (maybe because Americans didn't have the same shipbuilding techs the British Royal Navy had at that time)

 

[BuchiTaton]

UU- Pioneer, armed settler for easier expansion.
UB- Saloon, produce gold and culture but more importantly huge bonus to immigration appeal.
CA- "Land of the Free", each immigrant to your nation have a chance to produce a Great People.

Each part of the design are related, you can built a nation of explosive growing that can shine on any kind of victory. Is the civ that exploit the most a very needed immigration mechanic.

Saloon are related to the frontier, immigration, economic boom, folk culture, liberty, tough life and the forerunner of american entertainment industry.

 

[Phrozen]

America

Civ Ability: Sea to Shining Sea. American cities are founded with +1 population and gain any resource tiles in the second ring around the city upon founding. Internal trade routes gain +1 culture. International trade routes gain +1 gold for every civ they pass through for both origin civ and destination civ.

Leader: Calvin Coolidge.

Leader Ability: Business of the American People. Economic and production buildings cost 25% less to build and 25% less time to build.

Unique Building: Land-Grant University. All tile improvements in a city where a Land-Grant University is built gain +1 to their yields. Military units built in a city with a Land-Grant University gain a 10% bonus to experience.

Unique Unit: Yellowleg Cavalry. Normal cavalry except Yellowleg Cavalry suffer no malus due to terrain.

 

[Sirsquier]

1. Underlying themes: Early 1900s and late 1800s
2. Who should be leader: Calvin Coolidge
3. What should be their Unique Units: Devil Dogs (US Marines known as the deadliest weapon on earth) They'd be similar to the samurai in the fact that they'd not loose cs from damage. They'd also be able to disembark and embark without cost (though maybe a marine class tree should be added instead). They would also ignore terrain features. Besides this the B17.
4. What should be their Infrastructures: Steel Works and Frontier Fort.
America should be focused on golden ages, production, science, and economics.

 

[jsciv69]

1. Underlying themes: Early 1900s and late 1800s
2. Who should be leader: Calvin Coolidge
3. What should be their Unique Units: Devil Dogs (US Marines known as the deadliest weapon on earth) They'd be similar to the samurai in the fact that they'd not loose cs from damage. They'd also be able to disembark and embark without cost (though maybe a marine class tree should be added instead). They would also ignore terrain features. Besides this the B17.
4. What should be their Infrastructures: Steel Works and Frontier Fort.
America should be focused on golden ages, production, science, and economics.

Coolidge would certainly be an intriguing choice. At least it's somebody from the 20th century. A Unique building could be the Cotton Club(famous Jazz/Big Band club). I could see Coolidge being part of a scenario dealing with Prohibition and the rise of mafia gangs. Especially in New York and Chicago. But I think it's time for a Cold War Era leader. Someone with a little more Worldwide name recognition. My choice for that would be. Eisenhower As he was a WWII General and Allied Commander, Ike would be instrumental in Military recruitment. And I too think The Marines(Semper Fi) should be a unique unit. That's why I suggest Camp Pendleton as a Unique Improvement. This would make all Marines as instant Corps Units upon completion. I would also like to have the CH46 Sea Knight, or the CH47F Chinook Transport Helicopter. This unit can be loaded on a Carrier, or launched from a Helipad constructed by a Worker.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Coolidge would certainly be an intriguing choice. At least it's somebody from the 20th century. A Unique building could be the Cotton Club(famous Jazz/Big Band club). I could see Coolidge being part of a scenario dealing with Prohibition and the rise of mafia gangs. Especially in New York and Chicago. But I think it's time for a Cold War Era leader. Someone with a little more Worldwide name recognition. My choice for that would be. Eisenhower As he was a WWII General and Allied Commander, Ike would be instrumental in Military recruitment. And I too think The Marines(Semper Fi) should be a unique unit. That's why I suggest Camp Pendleton as a Unique Improvement. This would make all Marines as instant Corps Units upon completion. I would also like to have the CH46 Sea Knight, or the CH47F Chinook Transport Helicopter. This unit can be loaded on a Carrier, or launched from a Helipad constructed by a Worker.

Actually, one of the 'selling points' of Helicopters is that they do not need major Infrastructure bases to launch from, either on land or sea: almost any flat (non Hill, non Marsh, non Forest/Rainforest) tile will do.

 

[Phrozen]

I think my design hits what traditionally defined America: Expansion through settling new lands, commerce, and industry.

 

[jsciv69]

Actually, one of the 'selling points' of Helicopters is that they do not need major Infrastructure bases to launch from, either on land or sea: almost any flat (non Hill, non Marsh, non Forest/Rainforest) tile will do.

I actually served on board the USS Tripoli. This was a Carrier for Transport helicopters. The Sea Knight was instrumental in amphibious operations. This would be a great unit that goes hand in hand with The Marines Units. And I think this Civilization series should feature amphibious sea craft once again. In ancient times the Phoenicians used this to establish trade colonies. One particular colony in North Africa became Carthage. Civ III had sea vessels capable of embarking units. We need to return to full sea activity.