Designing America for Civ7

[Zaarin]

Yeah I didn't mean I'm uneducated, just I don't go to school. My mother basically sends the school a letter, which allows me to not go.... I get an education through books, online classes, ect. Basically I get to study what is important (history, science, math, english, ect.) at a pace I want, (which mean I work through the summer.)

TDLR I'm homeschooled

Ah. I was homeschooled as well, though I followed a structured program, just at home. I knew other kids who were unschooled, though.

Three yeah I wasn't saying the Maya were bad (B tier is by no means a bad tier) I just wouldn't make them stronger than two of the greatest world powers...
So basically if a civ is IRL a F tier move it up to a C tier. If civ is IRL S move it down to a A. Keep Civs that are IRL C-A the same as they are....
Basically buff the weak guys so they're the harder ones to play but not too much and nerf the strong guys so they're just a bit stronger...

I just don't accept this reasoning. Civs should be good at what they were historically good at, but their relative historical power shouldn't play any role in their design IMO. Civ is a history-flavored 4X game, not a historical simulator.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Alright sooo, yeah I mentioned this but I said, how they are technologically compared to others at the time.
Two I believe both U.S. and Rome are S tiers, so because this is a game we need to make them A tiers (so they aren't win cards)
Three yeah I wasn't saying the Maya were bad (B tier is by no means a bad tier) I just wouldn't make them stronger than two of the greatest world powers...
So basically if a civ is IRL a F tier move it up to a C tier. If civ is IRL S move it down to a A. Keep Civs that are IRL C-A the same as they are....
Basically buff the weak guys so they're the harder ones to play but not too much and nerf the strong guys so they're just a bit stronger...

So does that mean the if the Goths get in the game should they be S+ considering they took down Rome?

I don't really get into the tier rankings that much, or don't care, as that doesn't affect my gameplay whatsoever. The matter of the fact is Maya are designed to be good at Science and they do a good job of portraying just that. America on the other hand clearly has an advantage over them with Culture though.

 

[BuchiTaton]

For me the only aspect that could differentiate some "big names" like Rome, India, China or America from others like Nubia, Korea, Maya or Denmark is that the former would be broad flexible designed to exploit some game mechanic that covers all variety of victories, while the later would be more limited to a couple of options but still should be really strong at it.

For example America could exploit settlement+immigration to be strong in everything, while Mongolia would be powerfull conquerors (related to barbarian camps) with only a secondary economic route to gain from it.

 

[Sirsquier]

I just don't accept this reasoning. Civs should be good at what they were historically good at, but their relative historical power shouldn't play any role in their design IMO. Civ is a history-flavored 4X game, not a historical simulator.

My main problem isn't that the Maya are strong, it's that civs that are weaker irl are so much stronger than irl superpowers in the game. I wouldn't mind Maya and America being on par with each other.. (though I'd prefer for America to be 1 tier above) but it just kinda doesn't make sense when the Maya are above America if you know what I mean.

For me the only aspect that could differentiate some "big names" like Rome, India, China or America from others like Nubia, Korea, Maya or Denmark is that the former would be broad flexible designed to exploit some game mechanic that covers all variety of victories, while the later would be more limited to a couple of options but still should be really strong at it.

For example America could exploit settlement+immigration to be strong in everything, while Mongolia would be powerfull conquerors (related to barbarian camps) with only a secondary economic route to gain from it.

Actually this is a pretty good Idea. World powers being flexible and smaller nations being more specialized.

 

[Zaarin]

My main problem isn't that the Maya are strong, it's that civs that are weaker irl are so much stronger than irl superpowers in the game. I wouldn't mind Maya and America being on par with each other.. (though I'd prefer for America to be 1 tier above) but it just kinda doesn't make sense when the Maya are above America if you know what I mean.

I know what you mean; I just don't agree. In Crusader Kings, I expect the Great Seljuq Empire to be stronger than the County of Leinster because it's a historical simulator, but there's no reason for that to be true in Civ. Part of Civ's appeal is that you can create scenarios where the real-life second-tier and also-ran civs dominate; that's what makes Civ fun.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I know what you mean; I just don't agree. In Crusader Kings, I expect the Great Seljuq Empire to be stronger than the County of Leinster because it's a historical simulator, but there's no reason for that to be true in Civ. Part of Civ's appeal is that you can create scenarios where the real-life second-tier and also-ran civs dominate; that's what makes Civ fun.

- And not just Civ: My favorite games of EU have been when I took a "minor" power like Scotland or Brandenburg and turned them, contrary to reality, into great Colonial Powers. I don't think that is a unique experience: turning America or Russia into a Superpower is, frankly, a 'meh' achievement, compared to conquering the world with Georgia or the Maya - that at least feels like you've accomplished something Special.

 

[Zaarin]

- And not just Civ: My favorite games of EU have been when I took a "minor" power like Scotland or Brandenburg and turned them, contrary to reality, into great Colonial Powers. I don't think that is a unique experience: turning America or Russia into a Superpower is, frankly, a 'meh' achievement, compared to conquering the world with Georgia or the Maya - that at least feels like you've accomplished something Special.

Completely agreed. If I want to see superpowers being superpowers, I'll read a history book or watch the news.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

My main problem isn't that the Maya are strong, it's that civs that are weaker irl are so much stronger than irl superpowers in the game. I wouldn't mind Maya and America being on par with each other.. (though I'd prefer for America to be 1 tier above) but it just kinda doesn't make sense when the Maya are above America if you know what I mean.

What part of America in game is meh, exactly? I thought they were pretty good, at least the new Bull Moose Teddy.
To be fair that's also a part of game design where everyone wants the world powers in the base game: America, Rome, China, France, Russia, Germany, England etc. Civs released later are going to be more flavorful unless they get an overhaul, see Spain.

- And not just Civ: My favorite games of EU have been when I took a "minor" power like Scotland or Brandenburg and turned them, contrary to reality, into great Colonial Powers. I don't think that is a unique experience: turning America or Russia into a Superpower is, frankly, a 'meh' achievement, compared to conquering the world with Georgia or the Maya - that at least feels like you've accomplished something Special.

Yeah it's definitely feels more fun to conquer China and America as Vietnam, or conquer Russia as Georgia, in an ironic sort of way.

 

[Zaarin]

What part of America in game is meh, exactly? I thought they were pretty good, at least the new Bull Moose Teddy.
To be fair that's also a part of game design where everyone wants the world powers in the base game: America, Rome, China, France, Russia, Germany, England etc. Civs released later are going to be more flavorful unless they get an overhaul, see Spain.

America's never been an exciting civ in Civ6, but I think it's always been a pretty solid one. I rarely play it, but AI Teddy has always done pretty well for himself in any game I've played. And Bull Moose Teddy is probably the most interesting the US has been in the franchise. It's even somewhat quixotically very American: while America is, in fact, highly developed and urbanized, we have so much land that we can and have set aside large parts of it for preservation.

conquer Russia as Georgia

Bad things happen when Russia has the Georgian spirit.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

America's never been an exciting civ in Civ6, but I think it's always been a pretty solid one. I rarely play it, but AI Teddy has always done pretty well for himself in any game I've played. And Bull Moose Teddy is probably the most interesting the US has been in the franchise. It's even somewhat quixotically very American: while America is, in fact, highly developed and urbanized, we have so much land that we can and have set aside large parts of it for preservation.

Yeah and speaking about preservation, I forgot to mention the preserve district which obviously helps him out a ton as well.

Bad things happen when Russia has the Georgian spirit.

Fine the Ottomans. Waiting for Armenia to do that in Civ 7.

 

[Zaarin]

Waiting for Armenia to do that in Civ 7.

Here's hoping we get the opportunity. Armenian catharsis: conquer Persia, Byzantium, Ottomans, and Russia.

 

[Sirsquier]

I know what you mean; I just don't agree. In Crusader Kings, I expect the Great Seljuq Empire to be stronger than the County of Leinster because it's a historical simulator, but there's no reason for that to be true in Civ. Part of Civ's appeal is that you can create scenarios where the real-life second-tier and also-ran civs dominate; that's what makes Civ fun.

Exactly, there should be some struggle though. It's not as fun when it's easy. That's why I almost always start out as a count in CK3. Take a weak start, and make it a strong and powerful victory.

On another note:

America:
Ability: +10% to all yields in all cities when in a golden age +15% when in a heroic age. -50% production and -25% food when in a dark age. (reflecting the 1800-1900s with the massive growth and depressions)
UU: Devil Dog, Ignores terrain, No penalty for disembarking. +5 CS if adjacent to a naval unit. +5 CS in rough terrain. Never looses CS based off damage (Like Samurai)
UU2: B17
UI: Steel Mill, 3 Production, -1 appeal on adjacent tiles, -2 appeal on tile, 1 gold, +1 Production for every adjacent Steel Mill, Must be built next to river.
Leaders Choices: Adams, Jackson, Coolidge, Madison???

 

[reddishrecue]

America's never been an exciting civ in Civ6, but I think it's always been a pretty solid one. I rarely play it, but AI Teddy has always done pretty well for himself in any game I've played. And Bull Moose Teddy is probably the most interesting the US has been in the franchise. It's even somewhat quixotically very American: while America is, in fact, highly developed and urbanized, we have so much land that we can and have set aside large parts of it for preservation.


Bad things happen when Russia has the Georgian spirit.

I think some of the unsettled land is like that because of the weather also. Tornadoes, hurricanes and few natural disasters prevent huge urban areas from forming up. New York could be an exception since it gets really cold sometimes but the place is still urbanized. New Orleans, Miami, etc. are some of the cities that get hit and could be larger if it wasn't for the weather. What if preservations had bonuses for hurricanes or floods like food bonuses since the trees in preserves grow more or deserts which provide commerce for tourism for people with families that come and make picnics. There are also less mosquitoes which could even benefit preserves more.

 

[Zaarin]

I think some of the unsettled land is like that because of the weather also. Tornadoes, hurricanes and few natural disasters prevent huge urban areas from forming up. New York could be an exception since it gets really cold sometimes but the place is still urbanized. New Orleans, Miami, etc. are some of the cities that get hit and could be larger if it wasn't for the weather. What if preservations had bonuses for hurricanes or floods like food bonuses since the trees in preserves grow more or deserts which provide commerce for tourism for people with families that come and make picnics. There are also less mosquitoes which could even benefit preserves more.

Weather isn't unique to North America, though. The indigenous population of North America was devastated by the Columbian Exchange of diseases, and the excess population of Europe was quick to replace them--but even so could space out their settlements in a way unimaginable in densely populated Europe. Even if you compare similar unpleasant environments, like the American Midwest and the Eastern European Steppe, Europe is far more crowded.

 

[Knightfall]

UU idea:
Pioneer-Replaces Settler; can defend itself if attacked.
It shouldn't have a lot of combat strength, and should not be able to attack, only defend, but should still be tough enough to see off a Warrior or Slinger in the early game.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think some of the unsettled land is like that because of the weather also. Tornadoes, hurricanes and few natural disasters prevent huge urban areas from forming up. New York could be an exception since it gets really cold sometimes but the place is still urbanized. New Orleans, Miami, etc. are some of the cities that get hit and could be larger if it wasn't for the weather. What if preservations had bonuses for hurricanes or floods like food bonuses since the trees in preserves grow more or deserts which provide commerce for tourism for people with families that come and make picnics. There are also less mosquitoes which could even benefit preserves more.

The Miami area is the 4th largest urban area in the U.S.? Los Angeles area and the San Francisco Bay Area is also prone to earthquakes and forest fires.

Most of the large places of unsettled land is in the West because of deserts and the Rocky Mountains where historically people really never lived also, not necessarily because of more natural disasters. Most of the largest urban places in the U.S. are prone to experience some sort of hurricane/tropical system.

 

[Zaarin]

UU idea:
Pioneer-Replaces Settler; can defend itself if attacked.
It shouldn't have a lot of combat strength, and should not be able to attack, only defend, but should still be tough enough to see off a Warrior or Slinger in the early game.

Literally what I posted on the first page.

 

[dagriggstar]

So in my ideal civ 7 we would have 3 leaders per civ and (again) ideally at least one of each gender.

But is America one of those civs where it is simply not possible ? I know civ II had Eleanor Roosevelt but I have no idea if the wider civ community would accept her.....

 

[Zaarin]

So in my ideal civ 7 we would have 3 leaders per civ and (again) ideally at least one of each gender.

But is America one of those civs where it is simply not possible ? I know civ II had Eleanor Roosevelt but I have no idea if the wider civ community would accept her.....

I'd take Abigail Adams over Eleanor Roosevelt. She was so deeply involved in public policy that many in the government referred to her as Madam President.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd take Abigail Adams over Eleanor Roosevelt. She was so deeply involved in public policy that many in the government referred to her as Madam President.

I might take Abigail Adams over John Adams.