Designing Persia in Civ7

[Saint Leibowitz]

Oh gosh, I've just discovered that both Shapur I and Shapur II get called "Shapur the Great." That's... confusing, but I guess it makes more sense for the latter given the length of his reign.

I had Shapur I in mind, since his wars with Rome are particularly memorable and included a lot of shocking and devastating losses (like Valerian).

Shapur II would definitely be a great choice too. What should that aspect of his reign look like mechanically? Extra beliefs like Civ5 Byzantium?

 

[Zaarin]

Shapur II would definitely be a great choice too. What should that aspect of his reign look like mechanically? Extra beliefs like Civ5 Byzantium?

I'm hoping Civ7 religion looks rather different from what we've had in Civ5 and Civ6, less directly in the hands of the player, less directly connected to a specific civilization. Above I suggested bonus Culture and Faith from adherents of your state religion, bonus Science and Gold from adherents of non-state religions--but I'm having second thoughts. He did welcome Jews in his realm, but he also persecuted both Christians and Zoroastrian heretics.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Get them right, though: Cataphracts were the most expensive thing you could do with a horse and rider. Not only did you have to manufacture armor for both horse and man, and give man and horse lots and lots of time to train in armor and with weapons like sword and lance, but you also had to breed and feed horses sturdy enough to carry man and armor.
All of that meant that Cataphracts were always a very small percentage of any army: even armies largely of horsemen never seem to have managed to put more than 10% of the cavalry in cataphract-style armor and equipment, and 'settled' empires had even more problems: Rome had a dozen or so Auxiliary cataphractoi units, or about 5 - 7000 men out of 500,000, and the Tang Dynasty's elite shock force was 1000 cataphracts (with bow as well as lance) out of armies of 50,000 - 80,000 total.

That means, if Cataphracts are the 'generic' Classical Heavy Cavalry, the vast bulk of classical cavalry will be 'Light' and cover a wide range from unarmored horse archers and javelin-armed types to close-order cavalry with javelins, swords, lances, heavy spears, and body armor and shields. That's a pretty wide range of attributes to cram into Light Cavalry.

Then do you agree or disagree with Cataphracts being 'generic' Heavycav unit? if not how will you make do with 'Horseman' to distinct the 'light' and 'heavy' variants as a path of choice that mutually exclusives (i.e. a unit Horseman can choose light path that focus on combat speed or or ability to disrupt enemy supports OR heavy that's capable of charging head on and harder to kill). Since you introduced 'Tech upgrades' concept, what i've read through different threads when you presenting this idea is that EVERY (named) units player owns earns upgrades automatically once a tech is researched and nothing to do with pathways.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Sigil and Cities
Sigil
This Iran's Sigil is, naturally, the Lion and Sun they've used from the 11th Century well into the 20th century: Gold on Dark Green, as per their flag. Alt colours of Gold and Red seemed appropriate here, as that combination has been used before, in Civilization V.





City list

Capital: Isfahan
Other Cities: Tabriz, Shiraz, Tehran, Ardabil, Qazvin, Teflis, Ray, Mashhad, Yazd, Qom, Derbent, Herat, Merv, Hamadan, Soltaniyeh, Kerman, Bandar Abbas, Zaranj, Ormuz, Baku, Nishapur, Sari, Damghan, Maragheh, Astarabad, Shushtar, Kermanshah, Urmia, Bandar Bushehr, Birjand, Semnan, Zahedan, Lar, , Rasht, Zanjan, Khoy, Firouzabad & Bojnord.

Someone else is welcome to try the Sassanids while i go on to terrorize the other threads in this subforum with my presence. <3

Lion carrying saber is associated with Islamic Persia then. will it be applicable with Pre-Islamic ones as well??

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

That being said I'd like Cyrus again but hopefully they can portray him as the tolerant ruler that he was.

My first thought when seeing this is that it could work really well with a Culture system similar to the ones we've been discussing lately. Cyrus' ability could be that he can hold many different cultures in his cities without the stability downsides (however they choose to implement that, if they do), but his cities will never flip to a foreign culture as long as they have some Persian cultural influence. Imagine some bonus to multiple cultures coexisting similar to what Civ 6 India's Civ ability incentivizes with religion. Couple that with a Civ ability that doubles down on stability through governors, and you'll have the Persia I wish Civ 6 Persia was.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

My first thought when seeing this is that it could work really well with a Culture system similar to the ones we've been discussing lately. Cyrus' ability could be that he can hold many different cultures in his cities without the stability downsides (however they choose to implement that, if they do), but his cities will never flip to a foreign culture as long as they have some Persian cultural influence. Imagine some bonus to multiple cultures coexisting similar to what Civ 6 India's Civ ability incentivizes with religion. Couple that with a Civ ability that doubles down on stability through governors, and you'll have the Persia I wish Civ 6 Persia was.

Yeah honestly the biggest letdown for Civ 6 Persia was no tie in to governors which makes me kind of wish they waited to release them for R&F. Cyrus was also portrayed as a backstabber but at least he had some elements like no penalty to yields in occupied cities and loyalty with a garrisoned unit, which I assumed was at least a subtle tie into his tolerance toward others.

The Immortal and the Pairidaeza on the other hand are perfect.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Lion carrying saber is associated with Islamic Persia then. will it be applicable with Pre-Islamic ones as well??

For a more generalist logo you should go for the Simurgh. The Lion and Sun only works for Islamic Persia. The Farahavar, Persia's current sigil only works for Zoroastrian leaders.

 

[Lord of War N02]

My design for Persia that would be in CIV 7


Pre Islamic Persia design

Leader: Khosrau I
Unique Unit 1: Aswaran (Knight)
Unique Unit 2: Immortals (Spearman)
Unique Infrastructure: Satrap Palace

Islamic Persia design
Leader: Nader Shah
Unique Unit 1: Jazayaerchi
Unique Unit 2: Qizilbash
Unique Infrastructure: Bazaar

Combined design
Leader: Khosrau I
Unique Unit 1: Aswaran
Unique Unit 2: Jazayaerchi
Unique Infrastructure: Pairidaeza

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ Ain't Pairidaeza gardens also built and maintained by Islamic Persians too?

 

[Lord of War N02]

^ Ain't Pairidaeza gardens also built and maintained by Islamic Persians too?

You're right, Pairidaeza also used by Islamic Persians too because during later time, its spread outside Persia like in India by Mughals.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

You're right, Pairidaeza also used by Islamic Persians too because during later time, its spread outside Persia like in India by Mughals.

That's the only reason why I left out the Pairidaeza in my design of Persia, it's because I want to save it for a possible Mughal civ.

 

[Kimiimaro]

I'd have two partially worked out designs - one for ancient Persia, other for islamic Persia. For each I have two leaders, each from different dynasty. Gimmicks for unique units and buildings I was too lazy to think of, and I outright admit I wasn't very original when thinking of unique buildings either .

Persia (Ancient)

Unique ability: Satrapies - in conquered cities, Persia may recruit unique unit of the civilisation that founded said city, provided said civilisation had unlocked said unit. I suppose something regarding stability of these conquered cities could work, too.
Unique unit: Immortal
Unique building: Pairidaeza and/or Caravansarai

Achaemenid leader: Darius I
Capital: Persepolis or Susa
Leader ability: Royal Road - In times of war, Persian military units move with extra speed on roads built inside Persian territory. In times of peace, non-military units move with extra speed on these roads.
Note: One of the most important functions of the Royal Road Darius I had built during his reign was it serving as a highway for messengers. Creating a very effective postal system for his time, Darius could receive messages from the western border of the Achaemenid Empire in his royal palace in Susa in less than two weeks' time - an astonishing speed for the time. Needless to say, it was needed - the western border got quite busy under his reign, after all .

Sassanid leader: Khosrow I
Capital: Ctesiphon
Leader ability: Wek Antiok Khosrow
Note: Khosrow I was a powerful ruler enough to become a feared rival of the Eastern Roman Emperor Justinian, not only engaging him in wars, but also securing victories against the Byzantines, all while successfully expanding the Empire in other directions and simultanously bringing it internal stability. A decent choice for a Sassanid ruler, though I haven't much idea what skill to give him, so I went for a placeholder. During his wars against the Byzantines, Khosrow sacked the city of Antioch, and a few other surrounding towns in Byzantine Levant, capturing the locals. Those locals he had transported to live in a city inside the Sassanid borders he ordered to be built for them. The city was named Wek Antiok Khosrow. Meaning of the name? "Better than Antioch is this city built by Khosrow." Talk about adding insult to injury .

Persia (Islamic)

Unique ability: Lion and Sun - Frankly, no idea. Culture bonus would be nice, though I have a hard time thinking of something distinctively Persian at the moment .
Unique unit: Zamburak
Unique building: Pairidaeza and/or Caravansarai

Safavid leader: Abbas the Great
Capital: Isfahan
Leader ability: New Imperial Capital - Unlocks a project in all other cities that, once finished, transports 1 population from the city to the current capital of Persia. All structures providing housing have their housing yields increased in the Persian capital. Districts and buildings in the capital are 25% cheaper to erect, and the capital receives 20% speed towards wonder building.
Note: Probably the most accomplished Safavid Shahanshah, Abbas the Great did many things, such as massive military expansion of the empire, strenghtening of Persian economy, achieving the golden age of Safavid culture or establishing foreign relations between Persia and European powers, but as a Persian architecture enjoyer, I went with the Shah's project of moving the capital from the city of Qazvin to Isfahan, a town further away from dangerous Ottoman foe. In the process of establishing of the new imperial capital, Abbas transformed the city into one of Asia's most thriving metropolises of the time, complete with a grand set of magnificent projects he ordered built in the city - Naqsh-e Jahan, Ali Qapu or Shah's Mosque.

Afsharid leader: Nadir Shah
Capital: Mashad
Leader ability: Sack of Delhi - When pillaging a structure housing a great work and Persia has any free space for corresponding great work in one of its cities, said great work gets transferred to Persia.
Note: During his reign over the Afsharid Empire, Nadir Shah invaded the Mughal Empire in India, heavily crushing it militarily before entering Delhi, the Mughal capital, sacking it. The Persian Shahanshah captured immense wealth from the city (the seized wealth was so great that he temporarily halted taxation in Persia after his return) and managed to collect very great amount of treasures which he ordered transported to Persia - the most notable among those the famous Koh-i-Noor diamond and the Peacock Throne. The two mentioned items may not be in Iran anymore - the Peacock Throne was lost to history after Nadir Shah's assassination and Koh-i-Noor is now in British possession, but still, till this day, parts of the collected treasures from Delhi are to be seen in the Iranian capital of Tehran.

Side note - as anachronistic as it might be since it was used in 18th and 19th century mostly by the Qajars, I'd absolutely love if the Persian palace Islamic Persians would use was based on the Golestan Palace, or at least if the Golestan Palace was added as a wonder.

 

[Zaarin]

Afsharid leader: Nadir Shah

I'd rather have his (alleged) successor, Ahmad Shah Durrani of Afghanistan. Or both. That works, too.

 

[Ranger0001]

I don't know too much of the specifics but they should have a large cultural output. It could also work where they have a larger cultural output depending on how many cities they conquer to encourage the domination early game and then move into a cultural one.

 

[Krajzen]

My biggest frustration with Persian civilizations and perception in games and subcultures like this, is the fact that I personally think the global impact of "high culture", and especially science and philosophy, are the rarest and most precious achievements of historical civilizations. There have been very few civilizations in history that actually have developed "hardcore" mathematics, scientific method and naturalist philosophy. And Persians are among the most mighty cultures in human history in terms of the impact of their language, culture, art, architecture, literature, aestethics, philosophy, mathematics, medicine, astronomy and countless other sciences - upon literally the entire world. There was an era where scholars were reading Persian theatrises on science from England to Korea, and when Persian language was prestigious from Spain to Bangladesh. An enormous part of Islamic scientific output (like half of it? I know it can't be measured) was not done by "Arabs" but by Persians, often in Persian language; Abbasid caliphate was largely built by Persians; an enormous part of core Islamic doctrines were shaped by Persians and their cultures.

The problem? That era, as you may have noticed, was the Islamic medieval Persia, which just coincides with the lack of "long lasting mighty Persian state which covered modern Iran". So people around these kinds of games and subcultures tend to completely ignore this (imo the most glorious) era of Persian history, and either go completely into ancient empires or early modern ones, because they have been politically and militarily visible on the map. Like, yeah I am aware that ancient Persian empires have been glorious in terms of geopolitics and so on, but there were many empires across history that did that, and very few that did what this culture did in the medieval era. And I think the latter has been much greater achievement in general, and much more distinctively 'Persian' than yet another expansionist empires that left very little cultural remains and outside cultural impact. This problem is made even worse by Internet alliances of Western islamophobes and Persian anti - Islamic nationalist diaspora (I mean, I understand their frustrations...) who claim that pre - Islamic Persia was totally awesome and the latter utterly barbaric. In my humble opinion, in every aspect except physical size and imperial stability, the latter has been far greater, which is why I scream internally whenever I see popular crusader kings 3 posts reconverting Persia to Zoroastrian religion. I also scream internally when I see 'Arabs' used as a synonyme of 'Muslims' in context of medieval era, especially scientific achievements.

And then, as soon as the medieval era ended, Persians finally managed to create another "100% Persian Iranian empire"... which at this point was a silver age of cultural innovations and complete stagnation in science and technology. So, in the end, even if Islamic Persia appears as a faction in games like this, it is never scientific Persia, which is my biggest dream. You could, of course, do Persian civ based on Buyids or Samanids, but they are far less sexy empires than bigger and longer lasting ones; you could also create Persia like European civs are made, with a mix of different aspects from different eras, which could be a way to finally pay honors to Khwarizmi; but to this day, medieval Persia has to yet be noticed in popular history.

 

[Zaarin]

@Krajzen I get your frustration, but I think you kind of made your own point: there really was no significant Persian state in Iran proper between the fall of the Sassanians in 651 and the rise of the Safavids in 1501. At any rate, I would like to see an Islamic and Zoroastrian Persia if we could--and Zoroastrian Persia by definition means Sassanid since the Arsacids were pagan and the bulk of the evidence suggests the Achaemenids were, too.

 

[BuchiTaton]

I know that Achaemenids had been done to the point of get tired, but I still feel either that or Sassanids should be the mandatory Persia.

Now, I also like the idea of a modern islamic persian civ, but I think that could be cover by a persianized modern empire like the Gurkani and Durrani to have that sweet lapislazuli great domes and a zamburak UU, at the same time that cover Central Asia, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Now, I also like the idea of a modern islamic persian civ, but I think that could be cover by a persianized modern empire like the Gurkani and Durrani to have that sweet lapislazuli great domes and a zamburak UU.

If there is one reason to make Timurid Empire a civ, it has to be the blue domes

 

[Zaarin]

If there is one reason to make Timurid Empire a civ, it has to be the blue domes

My Durrani Afghanistan would have the blue domes, too. I have to say I strongly considered Uzbeks as a civ as well, for the same reason--but since Samarkand would almost certainly be the capital of any pre-Islamic Central Asian civ I think Persianate Samarkand could be better covered with a wonder like Registan.

 

[Kimiimaro]

My Durrani Afghanistan would have the blue domes, too. I have to say I strongly considered Uzbeks as a civ as well, for the same reason--but since Samarkand would almost certainly be the capital of any pre-Islamic Central Asian civ I think Persianate Samarkand could be better covered with a wonder like Registan.

If Firaxis doesn't opt for Afsharid or Safavid Persia and chooses Achaemenids or preferably Sassanids instead, I'll be happy to welcome the Durrani Empire in Civ VII . Apart from blue domes, we could get more oriental music, and that's always a plus by me .