Destroying a Holy City

[vormuir]

Playing as Huayna, did a Quechua rush in my neighbor Tokugawa. Hey, he's no damn good as a trading partner, and who wants to share a continent with another Aggressive civ?

The Quechua rush was almost accidental, though... I founded a second city with great production but little food, which had to crank out like four Quechuas before growing to size 2. Then I had all these Quechuas, so... But wow, a good Quechua rush can make your whole game, can't it.

Anyway. Right after I took Kyoto, Tokugawa founded Judaism in his second city, Osaka. A few turns later I swarmed Osaka with Quechuas and took it. But whoops! It was only a size 1 city and it disappeared.

Now, I had been told that destroying a holy city would earn me a permanent -1 penalty with everyone. But no... the one other civ on my continent doesn't seem to have noticed.

I figure either

1) No, you only get a dip penalty with civs of that religion; or,

2) you only get a dip penalty with civs who have that religion in one or more cities (whether it's their state religion or not); or,

3) you only get the penalty if you /raze/ the city, not if you destroy it for being size 1.

I strongly suspect it's #3. After all, you don't get a razing penalty for destroying a size 1 city in wartime.

Still, does anyone know?

(And it's a little sad, killing off a whole religion... never done that before.)


Waldo

 

[Jerrymander]

Option 3 seems to make the most sense, since one lacks control over capturing/razing a city when it is size 1.

EDIT: I razed the Christian Holy City, and Hindu people got mad at me with the -1 penalty of "You razed a Holy City!".

 

[KMadCandy]

i've heard rumors 1 and 2. never heard #3. it seems logical, but i've learned not to assume that logic is expected. i'll do my best to investigate this a bit.

 

[Mutineer]

I would suspect that it is posible that you get penalty only civ you know at time of raising. I never check, so I am not 100% sure, but tech trade work this way, so...

 

[flamingzaroc121]

maybe only if people know it is the holy city, but otherwise #3

 

[Bhruic]

While playing today, I razed the Jewish capital. No one was Jewish at the time, but there were cities with Judaism. I'd met all of the other Civs. I didn't get a -1 penalty with anyone. Therefore I'm pretty sure that it's (1).

Bh

 

[Hold The Onion]

i'm betting on only civs that have the religion in some sense (state or not) Razing holy cities is a favorite hobby of mine and I know it's not a -1 with everyone, but it's with more usually than just the owner.

 

[ori]

@KMadCandy:

There is a simple answer to the diplomatic penalty after razing a holy city:

Edit: 1 and 3

Spoiler more precise answer :

the diplomatic penalty is Razed_Holy_City and there is only one instance of it in the sdk, within the razeCity function, now
size 1 cities are not razed but auto-killed so you cannot receive the penalty for it, also you only get a penalty for razed_holy_city with those civs that have that religion as their state religion at the time of razing the said city. Curiously this is one of the hits that only human players can get, since the AI will never raze a holy city...

Spoiler code from CvPlayer.cpp :

void CvPlayer::raze(CvCity* pCity)
{
	wchar szBuffer[1024];
	PlayerTypes eHighestCulturePlayer;
	int iI, iJ;

	if (!canRaze(pCity))
	{
		return;
	}

	FAssert(pCity->getOwnerINLINE() == getID());

	eHighestCulturePlayer = pCity->findHighestCulture();

	if (eHighestCulturePlayer != NO_PLAYER)
	{
		if (GET_PLAYER(eHighestCulturePlayer).getTeam() != getTeam())
		{
			GET_PLAYER(eHighestCulturePlayer).AI_changeMemoryCount(getID(), MEMORY_RAZED_CITY, 1);
		}
	}

	[B]for (iI = 0; iI < GC.getNumReligionInfos(); iI++)
	{
		if (pCity->isHolyCity((ReligionTypes)iI))
		{
			for (iJ = 0; iJ < MAX_PLAYERS; iJ++)
			{
				if (GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iJ).isAlive())
				{
					if (iJ != getID())
					{
						if (GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iJ).getStateReligion() == ((ReligionTypes)iI))
						{
							GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iJ).AI_changeMemoryCount(getID(), MEMORY_RAZED_HOLY_CITY, 1);
						}
					}
				}
			}
		}[/B]
	}

	swprintf(szBuffer, gDLL->getText("TXT_KEY_MISC_DESTROYED_CITY", pCity->getNameKey()).GetCString());
	gDLL->getInterfaceIFace()->addMessage(getID(), true, GC.getDefineINT("EVENT_MESSAGE_TIME"), szBuffer, "AS2D_CITYRAZE", MESSAGE_TYPE_MAJOR_EVENT, ARTFILEMGR.getInterfaceArtInfo("WORLDBUILDER_CITY_EDIT")->getPath(), (ColorTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForString("COLOR_GREEN"), pCity->getX_INLINE(), pCity->getY_INLINE(), true, true);

	for (iI = 0; iI < MAX_PLAYERS; iI++)
	{
		if (GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iI).isAlive())
		{
			if (iI != getID())
			{
				if (pCity->isRevealed(GET_PLAYER((PlayerTypes)iI).getTeam(), false))
				{
					swprintf(szBuffer, gDLL->getText("TXT_KEY_MISC_CITY_HAS_BEEN_RAZED_BY", pCity->getNameKey(), getCivilizationDescriptionKey()).GetCString());
					gDLL->getInterfaceIFace()->addMessage(((PlayerTypes)iI), false, GC.getDefineINT("EVENT_MESSAGE_TIME"), szBuffer, "AS2D_CITYRAZED", MESSAGE_TYPE_MAJOR_EVENT, ARTFILEMGR.getInterfaceArtInfo("WORLDBUILDER_CITY_EDIT")->getPath(), (ColorTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForString("COLOR_RED"), pCity->getX_INLINE(), pCity->getY_INLINE(), true, true);
				}
			}
		}
	}

	swprintf(szBuffer, gDLL->getText("TXT_KEY_MISC_CITY_RAZED_BY", pCity->getNameKey(), getCivilizationDescriptionKey()).GetCString());
	GC.getGameINLINE().addReplayMessage(REPLAY_MESSAGE_MAJOR_EVENT, getID(), szBuffer, pCity->getX_INLINE(), pCity->getY_INLINE(), (ColorTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForString("COLOR_WARNING_TEXT"));

	// Report this event
	gDLL->getEventReporterIFace()->cityRazed(pCity, getID());

	disband(pCity);
}

 

[KMadCandy]

my "investigating" a bit was to PM ori since he knows how to read code and i don't, and has been very helpful to me in the past . my searches kept coming up with conflicting rumors like the post started with. now we know. thank you ori!

 

[bonafide11]

While playing today, I razed the Jewish capital. No one was Jewish at the time, but there were cities with Judaism. I'd met all of the other Civs. I didn't get a -1 penalty with anyone. Therefore I'm pretty sure that it's (1).

Bh

Yeah I agree... I'm pretty sure you don't get a penalty from Civs that aren't that religion

 

[cabert]

my "investigating" a bit was to PM ori since he knows how to read code and i don't, and has been very helpful to me in the past . my searches kept coming up with conflicting rumors like the post started with. now we know. thank you ori!

you're a charismatic leader, it seems

Thanks Ori,

 

[KMadCandy]

i wouldn't say that. it's more this specific case than applicable at all times. ori and i have or diplomatic modifiers built up so that we're at "Forum Friendly" status .

 

[ParadigmShifter]

i wouldn't say that. it's more this specific case than applicable at all times. ori and i have or diplomatic modifiers built up so that we're at "Forum Friendly" status .

Ha ha, they should have a diplomatic modifier for everyone on this forum.

-2: You flamed me!
+2: Our mutual struggle against the pedants brings us closer together
-1: Our posts being close together causes tension!
+4: We appreciate the years you have provided answers to my questions

EDIT: Thought of a few more.

+2/-2: We care for our brothers and sisters of the faith/we are upset that you have fallen under the sway of a heathen religion (CE vs. SE)
-5: You closed my thread (only applied to moderators)
+1: You have wisely chosen your leader in your walkthrough game
-1: You have posted in a thread started by our worst enemies!

 

[KMadCandy]

don't forget one of the most important ones! we'd need a strategy guide about the "We Fear You Are Becoming Too Off-Topic" limit.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

lollerskates! I think everyone would DoW against me in that case.


EDIT: Trying out my super-HTML skills here...

Nope, that's not working...

EDIT3: Yay! It works now!

 

[Hold The Onion]

Ha ha, they should have a diplomatic modifier for everyone on this forum.

-2: You flamed me!
+2: Our mutual struggle against the pedants brings us closer together
-1: Our posts being close together causes tension!
+4: We appreciate the years you have provided answers to my questions

EDIT: Thought of a few more.

+2/-2: We care for our brothers and sisters of the faith/we are upset that you have fallen under the sway of a heathen religion (CE vs. SE)
-5: You closed my thread (only applied to moderators)
+1: You have wisely chosen your leader in your walkthrough game
-1: You have posted in a thread started by our worst enemies!

+2 You made me laugh in a time of need (thanks)

 

[cabert]

Ha ha, they should have a diplomatic modifier for everyone on this forum.

-2: You flamed me!
+2: Our mutual struggle against the pedants brings us closer together
-1: Our posts being close together causes tension!
+4: We appreciate the years you have provided answers to my questions

EDIT: Thought of a few more.

+2/-2: We care for our brothers and sisters of the faith/we are upset that you have fallen under the sway of a heathen religion (CE vs. SE)
-5: You closed my thread (only applied to moderators)
+1: You have wisely chosen your leader in your walkthrough game
-1: You have posted in a thread started by our worst enemies!

I'll need a quite large excel sheet to keep track of my forum penalties .
I'll suggest a few more modifiers :
+10 you joined a SG I participated in (applies to Kmad )
-1 you declined my invitation to join a SG I participate in
+5 you wrote good articles which I look often at (applies to quite a few people, including Ori)
-2 you flamed someone writing good articles
-1 you're off topic in a good article's thread

 

[lukep]

Cabert, I suppose we have a

+4 for mutual struggle in off-topic ?

 

[kniteowl]

I destroyed a holy City once, it was in the middle of the Jungle with 1 pop and Zero Culture as the Civ with that City was running a Different Religon and when I went ot capture that city it was automatically razed....

But I didn't get a Diplomacy penalty, probably because the other Civ was running under a different state religon from it's holy city.

LOL probably this might need to be fixed in BTS expansion or in a patch.

 

[KMadCandy]

what probably needs to be fixed, kniteowl?

"because the other Civ was running under a different state religion from it's holy city." yeah that was it. they don't care at all about whether you raze "a holy city" in general, or "our holy city" as in "one that we own" ... it's all about "the holy city of our faith", even if their worst enemy owns it.

you only get the penalty from razing the holy city with civs that have that religion as their state religion. if the city has never been at pop 2 so it gets auto-killed, that doesn't count as you choosing to raze it, so you don't get a penalty for it. if they're running a state religion with a faith so brand new that the holy city hasn't ever had any population growth, i might question their sanity, but maybe i've only been size one as isabella a time or two on a hydra run, i can't remember. and as a matter of fact i do question my own sanity so that doesn't change that statement.


so, you didn't get a penalty, for two reasons. if you have two reasons for not getting a penalty, maybe you should get a bonus .