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Developing a logical (aka non whiny) list of issues with Civ V

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Stalker0, Sep 23, 2010.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So I've played through several games of Civ V at this point. On the one hand, I agree with a lot of the detractors, there are some solid concerns I have with the game. On the other hand, I agree with the others that there are way too many insults and outlandish complaints as opposed to legitimate discussion.

    I have seen a few threads like the lunatic one that attempt to impose some civil discussion, and I will do my best to support that by including my thoughts here. My goal is to highlight the parts of Civ V I do not like, and try to explain in a concrete manner how it is so. In an attempt to be balanced I will also describe some of the features I really do like.


    1) Game Slowness

    I join with a number of other complaints about the game's slowness between turns. Turns can take 10 seconds, and animations can drag that out to 20 seconds or more in certain cases. Civ IV had its issues with slowness as well, mainly during the modern era turns. The difference I have noticed here is that the slowness starts off right at the bat, even after the first few turns the delay kicks in.

    There is a second factor that makes this particularly bad. In Civ IV, I had the ability to turn off animations, to implement quick turns, factor that would allow me to compensate if my system was having trouble. The same features do not currently exist in Civ V.

    Now strategic view may be a way to get around this. I haven't enjoyed the strategic view interface but I recognize that could just be getting used to it, and ultimately it may provide some speed increases. I do however feel the quick turn features should be put back in the game.

    While this issue is a big one for me, I realize that optimizations can be implemented in later patches that could help with the issue.

    2) Slowness with certain aspects of the game

    This has nothing to do with game speed optimization, but more that certain aspects of the game feel like they are running at different speeds. One of the more common complaints is that buildings feel like they take too long to build. I share this view, not just from a “man I really want this building to finish” feeling, but also from the fact that because buildings take a long time to build they don't feel as worth buying as units and other things.

    I think part of it is that buildings are expensive; I think the other part is lumber stripping doesn't seem to be the end all be all strategy now, which makes getting your initial infrastructure in place that much more difficult (this isn't a criticism, just an observation).

    Another aspect I'm noticing is with culture and worker improvements. Initial improvements take a while since you can't stack workers. However, once you get your workers in place (and I'm talking about 3-4 workers, not a huge number) I find they move right along. In fact, I have found in all 3 games I've played that my workers run out of things to do. I get all the land improved, build my trade routes...and then my workers hang out.

    I do buy land on occasion, but even then I am quickly settling everything I need to, which makes me think culture spreading is just a bit too slow.

    I am playing more with build extra road routes, both within my system and to other areas, as roads aren't so expensive you can't build them in other places. But for right now, this area seems a bit slow.

    I can also state less from a factual standpoint and more from a perception one, that standard game speed feels much slower than in Civ IV. In Civ IV, it was always epic and marathon games for me, I couldn't stand regular games I felt like it was over before it started. Right now Civ V regular speed feels like between epic and marathon Civ IV in certain aspects.

    Overall, these problems are the easiest to patch if Firaxis chooses to do so, or even a quick mod can do it. A slight change to cost here, a small alteration to culture production here, etc.

    3) AI issues

    A lot of people have talked about this one, and I don't want to get into the vague discussion about how good the AI is with combat. What I will instead note are the “obvious” problems I am seeing with the AI.

    Auto Explore and City State Trespassing – Right now, units set to auto explore completely ignore city state borders, which angers them and lowers your influence. If there was an option for this I wouldn't mind it, as if I'm playing a warmonger I'm fine having my units go where they please. But if I'm playing peace, I want the AI to respect that.

    City Governors: This one is not as big a deal to me, and in fact the micromanager within me might even prefer it. The city focuses don't always focus as hard as I would like them to. I will tell a city to go food focus, but they will ignore a 3 F 1 P 1 G tile for a 1 F 1 P 4 G tile sometimes. This may be that the AI is given some priority to other aspects, so again this one is not the biggest deal to me.

    Culture Tile Choosing – Hehe, we all knew the second the AI started choosing tiles for us, there would be complaints:) In general, the tile choosing is pretty good. However, once in a while I will notice some oddities. For example, one time I had a tile that was 1F1P1G and other one that was 1F1P. Neither was near a valuable resource so that to me wasn't a factor. However, the AI chose the 1F1P tile. I will try to take some screenshots if I see this one again, but these are some glitches that can be smoothed out.

    Workers Deleting Previous Improvements – Not so much of an AI issue as simply a lack of options for me to select. I want the option to keep existing improvements.

    4) UI Issues

    A lot of anger has been about this one. I am going to do my best to explain with actual examples my issues with the UI.

    Production Queuing – In Civ IV this was very easy to do. With some control clicking I could fill up my queue quickly. In Civ V, queuing is very click intensive. I have to open up the city screen, activate the production queue, click that I want to add something to the queue, then click on the thing I want to add. I will say that move items around the queue is much easier now. Now, I personally don't mind the production queue set up the way it is for newer players, I just want a hotkey workaround for me. Maybe if I hold down the “Q” button while click on a unit it adds it to the queue..or something like that.

    Checking the status of a worker – In Civ IV, a mouse over told me how many turns are left. In Civ V I have to click on the worker to check. Its one more click in a game with a lot of clicks. Again, I don't mind that clicking on the worker gives me the info... I just want my mouse over as well.

    Alerts about when a new tile has been culturally acquired – This one is my own pet peeve. In Civ IV, when a city acquired a new border of culture you got a big announcement. Now, when a new tile is picked up, there is silence. I really want the map to show new tiles in pink or something, or put it on the mini map, or even one of the announcements put on the side bar. That way I can tell my workers to get to work!

    “R” key both creates roads and toggles resource displaying. This one actually comes up a fair amount.

    Diplomacy 5 gold per turn bug – As noted, I consider this one a flat out bug. Right now you are limited to a maximum of 5 GP per turn when you make a deal. Not a problem....except when I make a deal I can type in any number I want. If I put in 50 GPT for example, the AI will accept....and then I find out I only got 5 GPT.

    City Screen visual of workers – I am actually noting this one as a complaint I have that shouldn't be a complaint. Right now I don't like the way the city screen shows me where my workers are working. I'm having trouble getting a quick view of where my workers are at. But honestly...when I really thought about it...this is me being resistant to change. The UI shows me everything I need. I can see all my workers, all my tiles, I can see the ones the AI has chosen and the ones I chose, and I can see when another city is working tiles that my city could be working. I've got everything I need; I just don't like that its different. So I'm saying this for all those who have the same complaint, we should just play more games and see if we get used to it.

    5) Lack of information

    Like many fanatics, I'm a nerd at heart. I heart numbers as they say. However, I recognize that many people who play games are not, and they are intimidated seeing numbers and stats everywhere (Alpha Centauri was particularly bad about this).

    A lot of people have complained that they don't have all the numbers right on the screen. This part I can deal with in the interest of my non nerd breatren. What I will complain about is not having the information at all.

    I'll give an example...how fast does a road make your unit in Civ V? For a casual gamer, all he needs to know is “road = fast!”. But as a more number based guy, I want to know. Is it still 3 squares per 1 MP? How about when I get machinery, is it now 4 squares per 1 MP? How about with railroad?

    So I went to the Civilopedia expecting to find the secret numbers buried in here. That would be perfect, its tucked away from the people that don't care, but still available for those that do. Except...I couldn't find it. Looked at roads, looked at movement. All I could find is that “moving on a tile of road only consumes a fraction of your MP”.

    I have a number of examples like this. How many extra happiness does having an occupied city cost me? I can see the number that shows it for all of my occupied cities, but what about each one?

    I would also like to be able to see into my puppet states, as any good puppet lord does, so I can make some judgments whether I should leave him a puppet or fully annex him.


    Over time the community will compensate for this. Someone will post the charts on unhappiness and move speed and pacts of cooperation etc. So it will be less of a complaint with time, but certainly a complaint now.




    The Good Things

    So with all my complaining out of the way, I did want to note a few things I really do like about the new game.

    1) We Love the King Day – This small little aspect has such a great effect on diplomacy. It makes me reach out to city states and my fellow civs and do some serious trading. Normally would I shell out 500 gold just to be allies with a city state for a few turns, and a friend for a few more? Probably not unless I had a lot of patronage. But when it gives me a 25% growth burst in 1,2..sometimes 3 cities for 20 turns. Absolutely!!

    2) Happiness = Golden Age. Golden Ages to me got better and better through Civ IV, and I feel they finally nailed them in Civ V. I love that more happiness is a good thing. Its funny because resource trading is the opposite of what it was in Civ IV. In Civ IV, I could care less about gaining a wheat or a gold at times...especially late game when I had fixed my happiness problems. But I would sell my Grandma for your iron! In Civ V, I will swindle and sell out to gain those luxuries, because happiness is always useful.

    3) Embarkation/Naval Combat. Once you get over the distinct difference from previous games, it just is a better system. Naval combat is finally important, colonization is now no longer such a big headache, its just a win win.

    4) 1 UPT. Even though it has its little headaches at times, I really do enjoy combat right now.


    So that's my piece. Feel free to comment, but please keep it civil and constructive.
     
  2. abj9562

    abj9562 Warlord

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    Please add using multi monitor mode will not allow the screen to scroll left or right. You must use the arrow keys mini map etc... to accomplish this or turn of the extra montor(s). Confirmed witrh a thread and I have an open ticket with 2K support.

    Also when Civ5 is installed to a non standard directory (confirmed on installs to a different directory than the OS) mods can not be installed.
     
  3. Yakka2

    Yakka2 Chieftain

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    I applaud you sir.

    This is the way the criticism, whether everyone agrees with it or not should be given.
     
  4. Gorey

    Gorey Prince

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    No, it's not you being resistant to change. It's you noticing a clunkier/inferior design.
     
  5. Mazz

    Mazz Chieftain

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  6. Roots

    Roots Chieftain

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    This.
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Well my point was I think that too right now, but again the city interface gives me everything I need. The presentation is something I can get used to. Its not like some other UI complaints where I am actually missing information.
     
  8. Flavorable

    Flavorable Warlord

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  9. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    A few more posts like this and you may just well defeat the purpose of this thread.

    I applaud you, Stalker, and must say that except for points 1 and 2 I generally agree.
     
  10. Flavorable

    Flavorable Warlord

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    I agree about the last point.

    Not having numbers in diplomacy makes diplomacy more immersive and organic. But not having numbers when managing an empire is very very irritating.
     
  11. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    Not the first time I read this:
    I don't know what civ5 you are playing, but in mine it tells me when I put the cursor over it. Maybe you haven't seen the tiptools because by default I think they have a 3 seconds delay. I lowered that time in hte options to 0.3
     
  12. Tyrael

    Tyrael ALC Lurker

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    Great thread. My biggest problem is that most information that was available in 0-1 clicks in Civ4 now takes 1-3 clicks to get to. Yeah the interfaces are simpler, but it takes longer to find out where information is the first time, then too many clicks to get to it each subsequent time. Sometimes the information isn't there at all, like you said with road movement. That just seems like bizarre logic to me. It's like someone said hey, let's make the tooltips more vague so they're less frightening. Then someone changed "units can move 3 spaces per MP on roads" to "units can move faster on roads". Is that really that much simpler? I sure can't see how. When a minor change like this takes away important information, it's a step backwards.

    There's also a disappointing lack of options in the game. I miss "workers leave old improvements", don't view opponent's turns, etc. Actually I think having to view enemy turns is what's making the game so slow. In my first game I saw a barb galley sailing into the fog and thought "hey, that looked cool!". Then I realized that I had waited a total of 5 minutes between turns just to see that, and it wasn't going to get any better.
     
  13. dannythefool

    dannythefool King

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    This is a gripe I have with Civ V. There already is an info box for the tile your cursor is over in the bottom right corner. Why couldn't it show all information instead of delaying half of it in a tooltip that appears at a different location?
     
  14. zepitou

    zepitou Chieftain

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    I would add:

    6) Puppet City: forbid the gouvernor to build specific buildings, like barrack, armory, harbor, granary etcetc.

    7) No Capital/City State razing: so because of certains Victory conditions I'm not allowed to raze everything in order to enforce my vision of city placement/expansion...
     
  15. Newcomer24

    Newcomer24 Warlord

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    Please add a Multiplayer issues section, as of now many things are absent in MP games... you should be given the option to turn them the way they work in SP. The following is a list of things I noticed after a couple of hours of MP gaming, I'm sure there are more:

    - No movement or combat animations, this is expecially irritating when defending: you often have no clue of what is happening.
    - No full screen diplomacy, even when trading with the AI (wtf? This was advertised as one of the big new features and it's completely absent in MP)
    - AI players don't offer pacts or trades to human players (!!!), they just ignore you unless you contact them, it seems they are only allowed to accept/refuse things you propose them. They at least can still declare war to you.
    - City states give quests at a noticiably slower rate.
    - Tech quotes are replaced by boring "You have discovered XXX"... not a biggie but I mean was this really necessary?
    - You can see AI players score even if you don't know them.
    - You can't manullay save the game.
     
  16. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Just two minor corrections:
    Those features do exist in civ V , but by some reason they were shoveled to the advanced game start options. This means that you need to choose them before the game starts :/
    It is the exact same way in civ V, but by some reason , the default delay for the hover to appear is 1,5 seconds. Go to the options and change that to 0 to you get what you want .
     
  17. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Indeed, very good post and discussion style! :thumbsup:


    Can we sell buildings, BTW? I didn't find it yet, if it's not there it should be in.
     
  18. NCC81701

    NCC81701 Chieftain

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    1) Game Slowness

    This is something I noticed right away as well, when moving units "m" key or Holding R-mouse button it took a few seconds for the computer to come up with the path. This took some getting use to compared to Civ IV where pathing was instant. (As a side note, the change from "g" key to "m" key was a bit annoying and took some getting use to too).

    2) Slowness with certain aspects of the game

    This is readily apparent as well, but it is not all bad. This definitely makes each units worth more and gravitate the military side of the game away from massing units and toward a more strategic/tactical thinking. On the other hand in late game I have had units that took so long to build that I could upgrade them as soon as they are done. The numbers needs to be tweaked.

    Not being able to stack worker does need a transition in playing style, but I noticed that workers doesn't take as much to build as they use to, so you can just have more workers to compensate. No complaints here.


    3) AI issues

    Auto Explore and City State Trespassing - I wish the pathing would take into account City State Territory as well, I tend to piss them off when I M-move or RMB-move my units and the pathing completely ignores city state territory.


    4) UI Issues

    100% agree on this on

    Aircraft was very difficult to find the first time around and its representation is un-intuitive. The only indication that there is an aircraft based in a city is a number on top of the city name. It would have been nice if they are based at a city, that they would patrol over said city. When re-basing, the only indication of range was a solid blue line at range limit. The tiles within ranges needs to be clearly marked (color overlay, hash marks, anything). I actually spend a good deal of time wondering why I couldn't re-base my plane before I found out it was actually out of range.

    Railroads and roads looks nearly the same zoomed in, and are identical when zoomed out. It takes more effort than it should to tell where you've build railroads or not. There needs to be more difference in color between railroad and roads.


    5) Lack of information

    I find it difficult and confusing on simple task such as finding out how one Civ feels about another, whether they have trade agreements, def pact, etc. The new UI with a list takes too much scrolling to get information that was readily available in the diplomatic menu in the old games.

    End game was disappointing. I use to spend a good deal of time after the end of the game looking at stats and getting a general review of the game. Now when the game ends it just kicks you out to the menu. Very disappointed at this.

    The Good Things

    We Love the King Day
    -Agree

    Golden Age
    - Love the change

    Embarkation/Naval Combat.
    -Getting rid of transports is the single best thing that has happened to combat after 1 upt. Definitely makes an overseas empire much easier to manage, and your cities aren't stuck making transport units that really only has 0 use outside of transport.

    1 UPT
    -Best thing that has happened to combat since Aircraft basing, and promotions. No more stack of doom. There is much more value to each unit and tactical placement of units is important now. And it is much easier to surround or block an enemy unit.

    Artillery
    -It does what it does in real life, standoff attack. No longer a "Kamikaze" unit. As a side note, I kinda wish mounted units had zone control to prevent units from moving around flanks of your army.

    City States
    Awesome almost to the point of being overpowered. Makes diplomatic victory more do-able and with this system UN voting makes more sense and less dominated by who had the most pop/biggest empire.

    Resource Units
    Love how 1 tile of resource gives limited resource units. Now you don't have to hunt down every single oil tile to hurt their war economy. I like how some city building also depends on strategic resources.

    Overall, the game felt rushed. It is definitely different from Civ IV, but there is a lot of potential, just as Civ IV did when it was first released. The unpolished state of the info department really makes me feel like a good chuck of what make a Civ game fun is missing or needs serious work. Hopefully some of this stuff will get resolved in future patch/expansion.
     
  19. Buana

    Buana Chieftain

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    Let me see
    - who has which wonders
    - into my puppet states
    - what my active trades are
    - how many ressources I have
    - what unit promotions the enemy has
    - an after game replay! Did I miss it or is there really none and no victory movie?
    - single unit graphics. Those 10 tiny guys are really hard do discern
    - which unit is selected. That faint glow they use is really hard to spot

    - show enemy/friendly moves checkbox. I had to watch countless iterations of one of my allied city states attacking a barbarian! Every turn he bombarded this barb and it took ages until he died and then the next one came!
     
  20. Bhruic

    Bhruic Emperor

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    There's actually a setting for that in UserSettings.ini

    AutoWorkersDontReplace = 1

    I haven't actually tried that to ensure that it works (I don't automate my workers), but it's worth trying out. I haven't found any way to turn that on in-game.

    Bh
     

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