[Development Thread]WW1 Mod: Blood and Iron

[snafusmith]

@Skitters-

First, thanks a ton for all the work you've done to help flush out the civilopedia entries for Blood and Iron. This is one of those areas that takes a lot of time, adds a great deal to the overall finish of the mod, but often gets over looked. So from me and everyone else who's worked on Blood and Iron, THANKS!

As for super dreadnoughts (a name I hate, but can't get around), they're represented in game. Instead of offering a promotion to represent them, they're a complete class of ship that the player can build.

-Smitty

 

[snafusmith]

A quick update for all of you just because I'm very excited...

Tonight I started testing Blood and Iron! So far the version has no scenario, and I start with a blank map, but it works and is so far very stable. I played for a while so the map would fill up with cities and units, and even on my older computer w/18 civs on a large map the turns were no longer than with normal BTS!

That said, we're still about a month or 2 away from a release. I have a VERY long list of bugs to fix (mostly unit balancing and minor XML tweaks), some more art to add in and some other additions. BUT - the game works, it's playable, and the AI seems to use things correctly.

So far, I've seen civs trading designs (I caught France trading their designs to Belgium, and Belgium using them to build Renault tanks) and using they are using the new units as they are intended. It's exciting to see the game actually work!

PROGRESS IS HAPPENING!
-Smitty

 

[wotan321]

Wonderful news. Thanks for all the hard work that you have put into this.

 

[GeoModder]

Good news indeed.

 

[mamba]

So far, I've seen civs trading designs (I caught France trading their designs to Belgium, and Belgium using them to build Renault tanks)

so the different tanks can in theory be built by all civs ? They are different units (i.e. different stats) and not just civ specific art of e.g. a light / medium / heavy tank ?

Interesting

PS I hope you get around to uploading your tanks soon, there seem to be quite a few (I checked the WWII mod units for ones I thought were new)

 

[snafusmith]

so the different tanks can in theory be built by all civs ? They are different units (i.e. different stats) and not just civ specific art of e.g. a light / medium / heavy tank ?

Interesting

PS I hope you get around to uploading your tanks soon, there seem to be quite a few (I checked the WWII mod units for ones I thought were new)

For everything except ships and artillery (each civ has unique ship classes like in standard BTS if they have any, and artillery just uses civ-specific art), each unit is coded very specifically.

Here's how units work, I don't think I've run through this all the way in a while.
1. Each unit (plane, tank, or armored car) is its own complete unit class with specific attributes
2. Each unit is differentiated to different civs through the CivilizationInfos.XML file. You can either build the unit, or you can't. This is to keep a third party from trading your designs to your enemy and thus from building your equipment. Think of it as though Sweden was taking British/French designs and passing them along to Germany - bad juju!
3. The unit class is restricted further by resources (here called designs). Designs are provided by a civs defense industry building - only certain civs can build these, and they only provide so many designs that can be traded
4. The art for the unit is civ-specific through the CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos.XML file. This means that once the Ottoman Empire is traded some German designs, they can build German fighters, though they have Ottoman markings on them.

I've divided civs up as follows:
1st Class - Has unique units and attributes, has a defense industry and can trade designs
-Britain
-Germany
-France
-Russia
-Austria-Hungary
-Italy
2nd Class - Has full ability to construct all units, may have unique units, but lacks designs. Can only use designs from allies (Central Powers or Triple Entente)
-Ottoman Empire
-Belgium
3rd Class - Limited construction rights for units, and lacks designs. Heavily reliant on 1st and 2nd class civs for survival. Can use designs from either Central Powers or Triple Entente, but depended on civ and unit type.
-Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, etc

Hope this helps clear up the unit question a bit. It's kinda complicated and a bit confusing, but the AI seems to understand it, which is good. I do expect some kinks to need to be fixed during testing, but nothing too drastic.

As for the WW2 tanks, I've made something special. Over a period of a couple months I researched a tank that would be appropriate for every civ that you can play in standard BTS. I've completely re-made old models and started from scratch from quite a few. The tank pack has a couple stragglers that I need to finish up, otherwise its ready for release. Overall it includes 20 different tank models, and upwards of 40 unique skins (it has options for more than one type of tank per civ).

My ultimate goal was to make it so that mods didn't have to think about which tank to use for their civ - there are so many unit makers out there of various skill level that a lot of mods I see have some excellent artwork along side some not-so-excellent artwork. This really got on my nerves, so I decided to fix it. Ultimately I plan to do a unit pack for every type of vehicle in BTS.

-Smitty

 

[mamba]

For everything except ships and artillery (each civ has unique ship classes like in standard BTS if they have any, and artillery just uses civ-specific art), each unit is coded very specifically.

Interesting concept, having designs as resources also is an elegant approach to this

As for the WW2 tanks, I've made something special. Over a period of a couple months I researched a tank that would be appropriate for every civ that you can play in standard BTS. I've completely re-made old models and started from scratch from quite a few. The tank pack has a couple stragglers that I need to finish up, otherwise its ready for release. Overall it includes 20 different tank models, and upwards of 40 unique skins (it has options for more than one type of tank per civ).

ok, now you did whet my appetite, looking forward to that pack

Ultimately I plan to do a unit pack for every type of vehicle in BTS.

Next up, modern armor

that will be quite an undertaking to do this for all vehicles

 

[avain]

For everything except ships and artillery (each civ has unique ship classes like in standard BTS if they have any, and artillery just uses civ-specific art), each unit is coded very specifically.

Here's how units work, I don't think I've run through this all the way in a while.
1. Each unit (plane, tank, or armored car) is its own complete unit class with specific attributes
2. Each unit is differentiated to different civs through the CivilizationInfos.XML file. You can either build the unit, or you can't. This is to keep a third party from trading your designs to your enemy and thus from building your equipment. Think of it as though Sweden was taking British/French designs and passing them along to Germany - bad juju!
3. The unit class is restricted further by resources (here called designs). Designs are provided by a civs defense industry building - only certain civs can build these, and they only provide so many designs that can be traded
4. The art for the unit is civ-specific through the CIV4UnitArtStyleTypeInfos.XML file. This means that once the Ottoman Empire is traded some German designs, they can build German fighters, though they have Ottoman markings on them.

I've divided civs up as follows:
1st Class - Has unique units and attributes, has a defense industry and can trade designs
-Britain
-Germany
-France
-Russia
-Austria-Hungary
-Italy
2nd Class - Has full ability to construct all units, may have unique units, but lacks designs. Can only use designs from allies (Central Powers or Triple Entente)
-Ottoman Empire
-Belgium
3rd Class - Limited construction rights for units, and lacks designs. Heavily reliant on 1st and 2nd class civs for survival. Can use designs from either Central Powers or Triple Entente, but depended on civ and unit type.
-Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, etc

Hope this helps clear up the unit question a bit. It's kinda complicated and a bit confusing, but the AI seems to understand it, which is good. I do expect some kinks to need to be fixed during testing, but nothing too drastic.

As for the WW2 tanks, I've made something special. Over a period of a couple months I researched a tank that would be appropriate for every civ that you can play in standard BTS. I've completely re-made old models and started from scratch from quite a few. The tank pack has a couple stragglers that I need to finish up, otherwise its ready for release. Overall it includes 20 different tank models, and upwards of 40 unique skins (it has options for more than one type of tank per civ).

My ultimate goal was to make it so that mods didn't have to think about which tank to use for their civ - there are so many unit makers out there of various skill level that a lot of mods I see have some excellent artwork along side some not-so-excellent artwork. This really got on my nerves, so I decided to fix it. Ultimately I plan to do a unit pack for every type of vehicle in BTS.

-Smitty

Everything you said here sound terrific! Can't wait to play the mod, and also can't wait for the tanks/unit updates you're about to release!

 

[asioasioasio]

So would you make hipotetical units - in case different and unuaual trade of plans resources - for example albatros with british markings? I know tough that this trade isn't possible much if you set the significant -+ in the diplomacy attitude.

 

[snafusmith]

So would you make hipotetical units - in case different and unuaual trade of plans resources - for example albatros with british markings? I know tough that this trade isn't possible much if you set the significant -+ in the diplomacy attitude.

That would be cool. Something like this you mean?



Yeah, that could be a cool add-on or change down the road. The biggest concern I have is with the interface - the way the units are set up now, too many would show up on the tech tree to make it manageable. For example, there are about half a dozen or so units of each type (say, intermediate fighters - Sopwith Pup, Albatros D.III, Nieuport 17, etc). Right now, if every one is available and not restricted through the civilizationinfos.xml, then they ALL show up at the tech that allows them. Things get pretty crowded. Some type of interface change to limit the number of units allowed with that tech in the tech tree would be needed.

-Smitty

 

[asioasioasio]

Yeah - good job with nieuport

Yeah - it is serious problem. In python you can make more wide the tech on the tech tree - i've made it a little bit wider so all the units fitted the tech tree (I had problem with different artillery units). But if you want to add more units that makes problem. Someone good in Python my find other solution.

 

[snafusmith]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I finished the 'Tsar Tank.'



The model and most of the texture was done, I just hadn't gotten around to fixing it up and animating it. Don't worry, I plan to post it in the unit forums soon.

-Smitty

 

[GeoModder]

Wow.
Looks high-poly with all those spindles in the main wheels though...

 

[mechaerik]

Somebody was definitely on something when they designed that tank.

 

[nutnut]

Is it a spider? Is it a wheelbarrow? Actually it's a tank.

When Jerry saw that lumbering towards them across the battlefield I bet they were too busy laughing to actually realise it could still be dangerous.

 

[Flintlock1415]

Wow.
Looks high-poly with all those spindles in the main wheels though...

I'm guessing he just used an alpha channel on the texture for that. If not, then yeah it would be crazy high poly.
Anyway

 

[snafusmith]

I'm guessing he just used an alpha channel on the texture for that. If not, then yeah it would be crazy high poly.
Anyway

Nope, they're separate pieces of the model. To get that level of detail with a texture would have meant that the texture would have to be 512x512 or larger. It was easier to make it part of the model and just live with the extra polys. It's not that bad though - only about 2000 total. Not bad, especially since there will only ever be 3 of them on the map. The Russians can't build it, they can only get it through an event.

 

[Skitters]

Regarding events, when I was going throught the ship civ descriptions it reminded me of the two dreadnoughts that Britain had built for the Ottoman Empire (well one was for Brazil, but they had sold it to the OE before completion) that we kept for ourselves on the basis they could end up being used against us. That helped shift Turkish public opinion - particularly as the ships had been partly funded by public donations - towards an alliance with Germany. So it seems like a good opportunity to having an event which asks the British players if they want to keep the ships (negative relations with OE +2 Dreadnoughts) or let them continue to the OE (2 Dreadnoughts to OE and perhaps a small amount of gold to British player to represent a final installment or simply no effect so that the likelihood will be that the British player keeps the ships)

One problem with the event is whether you're looking at replicating exact numbers of ships in the game? I was trying to work out ship dispositions last week, but when you see Britain starting WW1 with 25 Dreadnoughts (including the 2 meant for OE), 11 Battle Cruisers and around 60 Pre-Dreadnoughts - never mind Cruisers and Destroyers - it quickly became apparent that there are a lot of units to represent (and the bulk of all those capital ships - except a handfull of the Pre-Dreadnoughts - were in the Grand Fleet). Presumably Destroyers could be represented on the lines of 1 unit = a flotilla, and perhaps Cruisers could be trimmed down on a similar basis? But that still equals a shed load of units and therefore a load of resources when B&I seems primarily geared towards land combat.

Anyhow there were a couple of other bits I cam across;

After the Brits kept the Residaye and Sultan Osman I (HMS Erin and Agincourt), and as a means of being able to move the Battlecruiser SMS Goeben and Light Cruiser Breslau from the Med to Black Sea via the Dardanelles (and help swing Turkish public opinion further towards Germany) the ships were nominally transferred to the Ottoman Navy as Yavuz Sultan Selim and Medilli - though they kept their German crew. The presence of these ships (well, Goeben) effectively prevented Russia from dominating the Black Sea as she was quicker, heavier armoured and better armed than the Russian ships present.

At the outbreak of war France kept 4 Destroyers built for Argentina (perhaps an event where the French player forgoes the Destroyers for a very small amount of gold?)

In October 1916, 11 Greek Destroyers were seized by the Allies and added to the French Med fleet.

In 1916 the Japanese returned the Pre-Dreadnoughts Sagami and Tango plus the Protected Cruiser Soya to Russia (these were war prizes from the Russo-Japanese war of 1905). Japan kept a further 4 Pre-Dreadnoughts and 2 Protected Cruisers that were also war prizes for itself.

 

[nutnut]

Regarding events, when I was going throught the ship civ descriptions it reminded me of the two dreadnoughts that Britain had built for the Ottoman Empire (well one was for Brazil, but they had sold it to the OE before completion) that we kept for ourselves on the basis they could end up being used against us. That helped shift Turkish public opinion - particularly as the ships had been partly funded by public donations - towards an alliance with Germany. So it seems like a good opportunity to having an event which asks the British players if they want to keep the ships (negative relations with OE +2 Dreadnoughts) or let them continue to the OE (2 Dreadnoughts to OE and perhaps a small amount of gold to British player to represent a final installment or simply no effect so that the likelihood will be that the British player keeps the ships)

One problem with the event is whether you're looking at replicating exact numbers of ships in the game? I was trying to work out ship dispositions last week, but when you see Britain starting WW1 with 25 Dreadnoughts (including the 2 meant for OE), 11 Battle Cruisers and around 60 Pre-Dreadnoughts - never mind Cruisers and Destroyers - it quickly became apparent that there are a lot of units to represent (and the bulk of all those capital ships - except a handfull of the Pre-Dreadnoughts - were in the Grand Fleet). Presumably Destroyers could be represented on the lines of 1 unit = a flotilla, and perhaps Cruisers could be trimmed down on a similar basis? But that still equals a shed load of units and therefore a load of resources when B&I seems primarily geared towards land combat.

Anyhow there were a couple of other bits I cam across;

After the Brits kept the Residaye and Sultan Osman I (HMS Erin and Agincourt), and as a means of being able to move the Battlecruiser SMS Goeben and Light Cruiser Breslau from the Med to Black Sea via the Dardanelles (and help swing Turkish public opinion further towards Germany) the ships were nominally transferred to the Ottoman Navy as Yavuz Sultan Selim and Medilli - though they kept their German crew. The presence of these ships (well, Goeben) effectively prevented Russia from dominating the Black Sea as she was quicker, heavier armoured and better armed than the Russian ships present.

At the outbreak of war France kept 4 Destroyers built for Argentina (perhaps an event where the French player forgoes the Destroyers for a very small amount of gold?)

In October 1916, 11 Greek Destroyers were seized by the Allies and added to the French Med fleet.

In 1916 the Japanese returned the Pre-Dreadnoughts Sagami and Tango plus the Protected Cruiser Soya to Russia (these were war prizes from the Russo-Japanese war of 1905). Japan kept a further 4 Pre-Dreadnoughts and 2 Protected Cruisers that were also war prizes for itself.

If the British do give the ships away then an event could happen with the Ottomans where they can keep the ships but not be able to build any more or dismantle them and get something like a 75% chance of discovering how to build new ones.

 

[Skitters]

I was kind of thinking I'd like to see the cost of Capital ships be pretty much prohibitive to build when at war to reflect that the only major ships that were built were those that were already on the docks at the start of the war.

Perhaps whilst it wouldn't be impossible to build ships, it'd be nice if for the most part capital ships are only added by event? This could represent actual ships that were on the docks (such as the British Queen Elizabeth class ships), but perhaps also have a series of possible "Naval Programme" event where a chunk of production is added to a coastal city to make producing a ship feasible. There could be several of these events with varying costs to the player (ie; one where there is no real cost, another where a chunk of gold has to be paid, and perhaps another where there would be a temporary reduction in production across several cities to represent the diversion of goods to the ships construction?)

The problem with this is that it makes capital ships more valuable - and may be hard to balance if the AI can't be taught not to simply fritter them away. So in terms of units I'd like to see the following

Dreadnoughts & Battlecruisers to have a potentially lethal bombard (but also a potential to miss), range dependent on map but around 3 squares (or the equivalent of railguns whatever they may be), plus the blitz promotion by default to allow multiple attacks. Ideally - as the bombardment increases in range, damage would decrease and likelihood of missing increase.

This would open up Gunnery Control as a possible promotion chain?

Pre-Dreadnoughts to also have a lethal bombard, and the 3 square range....but no blitz to represent them not being part of the big gun philosophy. Or perhaps if possible - a once per turn bombardment of 1 square, and a weaker bombardment of 1/2 squares that would have blitz.

Cruisers to have a bombard range of 1/2 squares.

Destroyers to only be able to attack normally - but to have an additional modifier to further stack the odds against them if they attack a capital ship. However they would have a button to be able to fire torpedos - which would ideally act in a similar way to a bombardment but only damage naval units. This would have a range of 1 square and be able to cause substantial damage to a capital ship *but* once clicked the option to fire again would not return until the Destroyer unit had finished a turn in port.

Having said that, obviously the emphasis of B&I is the land war...but I can't help but want to somehow get a Battle of Jutland in there somehow!