DG4 Discussion - Const: Article G

[Donovan Zoi]

Good point, Ravensfire. I actually forgot that I was a proponent of longer Judiciary terms.

With a noticeable absence of grace, DZ hops onto the "fixed term" bandwagon....

 

[DaveShack]

Originally posted by ravensfire
Therefore, I propose that we adopt the following as Article G.
All elected positions shall have a fixed term. All such vacant positions shall be filled by appointment of a citizen to fulfill the remainder of the term.

Sorry, I can't resist one more grammar police type comment such is less than optimum, how about:

All elected positions shall have a fixed term. All vacant elected positions shall be filled by appointment of a citizen to fulfill the remainder of the term.

 

[ravensfire]

Everyone's picking on me!!!!!!!


Good correction!

-- Ravensfire

 

[zorven]

Originally posted by DaveShack

All elected positions shall have a fixed term. All vacant elected positions shall be filled by appointment of a citizen to fulfill the remainder of the term.

With this wording you are requiring that a Leader's position that becomes vacant must be filled via appointment thereby rendering deputies obsolete when it comes to replacing the Leader. Your new wording "All elected positions shall have a fixed term" is not what was approved by the poll. I think we need to stick to the approved wording with any additions we are now discussing forming a subsection of Article G.

Back to my proposal:

Article G: Leaders shall be elected by the full citizenry for a term fixed by law.
Section 1. Leader positions which become vacant may be filled via an appointment that is confirmed by the full citizenry.

I don't see how the word "may" could in any way cause a CoL that allows appointments to be ruled unconstitiutional. This Article specifically gives permission ("may") to use appointments. And my wording does not require every vacancy to be filled by appointment. And I do not see how my wording would forbid the CoL from specifying that any vacancy filled would be for the remainder of the term. I would also prefer that appointments be confirmed by the citizens.

 

[Cyc]

quotin zorven:
With this wording you are requiring that a Leader's position that becomes vacant must be filled via appointment thereby rendering deputies obsolete when it comes to replacing the Leader.

I would think that if there was a Deputy, that would be the first place a knowledgible President would look when searching for a replacement. If the Prez did select the Deputy for appointment to the Leader position and the Deputy declined, then the Prez would have to look elsewhere. I've seen quite a few people run for Office staing that they didn't have enough time to be a Leader, but wanted to participate in the Department. Thus, the Prez would know before-hand not to look at the Deputy for appointment purposes. What if there was no Deputy? But all this is way too much to put into an Article.

I see yer point, but I think we've worked through it already, zorven.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

I see yer point, but I think we've worked through it already, zorven.

Have we? Already?

Tell you what......I will check on this tomorrow afternoon, and if it seems we are ready for poll, I will post one.

But how should we go about it? By choosing one proposal to ratify, or submitting every available proposal to the ballot? If we choose the latter, I would like to see us whittle it down to two or three choices so that we have a chance of avoiding a follow-up poll.

Please post your thoughts.

 

[DaveShack]

Wording aside, here's what I want to see.

• Leadership positions filled via election.
  • Leaders, Governors, Justices -- definitely.
  • Deputies -- preferably.
  • Mayors & other "citizen" posts -- hard to do this and I'd lean towards giving the people "recall" power as a form of election.
• Deputies can fill in for expected and unexpected absenses.
• The leader can appoint a new deputy.
• Someone (some have suggested the president) can appoint a new leader.
• All appointments should be subject to ratification. The ratification process should allow at least a minimal amount of time for nominating alternatives to the appointment, so that the ratification is more than a rubber stamp.

The objective should be a minimal constitutional article which allows any reasonable combination choosing for each of these points, itself or its opposite, and does not mandate that all of the points have to be included at all.

 

[Cyc]

I think we should just ratify the proposal by ravensfire. It includes the "appointment" word and mentions elected positions serving a fixed Term. After five and a half pages and a poll, I believe that's all we need.

zorven's proposal changed a few words like "by Law", but of course it's going to be fixed by Law, we're not talking veterinarians here. He wants to swap the word "may" with "shall". This would just cause problems down the road. Then he brings up confirmation of appointees. I went back and checked this thread and today is the only day that confirmations are mentioned. I think zorven has taken up donsigism.

Most everything in DaveShack's wishlist is either covered by ravensfire's proposed Article or belongs in the CoL or the CoS.

So that covers it. Let's just ratify the ravensfire, reworded by Cyc, and finalized by DaveShack proposed Article. And put this one to bed...

 

[Sarevok]

sounds good, wasnt that the way it was before in DG3?

 

[zorven]

Originally posted by Cyc
zorven's proposal changed a few words like "by Law", but of course it's going to be fixed by Law, we're not talking veterinarians here. He wants to swap the word "may" with "shall". This would just cause problems down the road. Then he brings up confirmation of appointees. I went back and checked this thread and today is the only day that confirmations are mentioned. I think zorven has taken up donsigism.

I don't understand your veterinarian joke. Sure both proposals mean the same thing. It is just a matter of style/preference.

My problem with "shall" is that, in my opinion, it would not allow for deputies to automatically assume, or have the right to, the Leader's position if the Leader postion becomes vacant.

Is there some rule that we cannot propose new ideas? I assumed we were re-working this Article since it has already been polled and decided and we are still discussing it.

 

[ravensfire]

zorven,

If, in the CoL dealing with vacant offices, we put the clause:
If a deputy exists for the vacant office, the deputy is automatically appointed to that office, would that correctly handle the situation?

-- Ravensfire

 

[zorven]

ravensfire,

I think that would work. And I suppose my idea to have appointments confirmed can go in the CoL as well if anybody else wants that.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by zorven
ravensfire,

I think that would work. And I suppose my idea to have appointments confirmed can go in the CoL as well if anybody else wants that.

Exactly! The Constitution says that we fill vacancies with appointments. The CoL is were we get into the details of that process.

-- Ravensfire

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by zorven

Back to my proposal:

Article G: Leaders shall be elected by the full citizenry for a term fixed by law.
Section 1. Leader positions which become vacant may be filled via an appointment that is confirmed by the full citizenry.

I don't see how the word "may" could in any way cause a CoL that allows appointments to be ruled unconstitiutional. This Article specifically gives permission ("may") to use appointments. And my wording does not require every vacancy to be filled by appointment. And I do not see how my wording would forbid the CoL from specifying that any vacancy filled would be for the remainder of the term. I would also prefer that appointments be confirmed by the citizens.

Yes, but you are missing the obvious problem with using the term *may*. Vacant offices could be left vacant if whoever has appointing power decides not to use that power. You all word it the way you want but don't complain later if judicial reviews undermine your intent.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by DaveShack

All elected positions shall have a fixed term. All vacant elected positions shall be filled by appointment of a citizen to fulfill the remainder of the term.

Still looks like this is the general preference - any objections?

-- Ravensfire

 

[Donovan Zoi]

None here. And since no one else has objected, I now post this proposal for ratification.

Here is the poll:

Ratification Poll for Constitutional Article G