DG4 Discussion - Const: Article I

[Strider]

Well, the current problems with it is

- Bad Wording
- To many loopholes (IE: the census is only taken once (during elections, yet the population can grow or (more likely) shrink after the elections, making it either to easy or to hard to pass amendments. )

Don't ask me to re-word it, as I've said many times, my english sucks .

On the loophole part, I'll suggest once again that it would be more efficient to post a "Census" poll in the polls forum Maybe during elections and half-way through a term (or possibly even more).

 

[DaveShack]

If the ratification poll fails as currently worded, I'll get the ball rolling on the next iteration by offering this replacement wording.

I.  Census, and Amending the Constitution
  1.  The census shall be defined as the average number of definitive votes cast
(abstain excluded) in each of the contested elections in the most recent
general election.

  2.  Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution shall require each of the following
    a.  A poll which is open for at least 48 hours, which states the text of the
proposed new section(s), the text of the section(s) being replaced, and posing
the question in the form of yes / no / abstain
    b.  A majority of yes votes
    c.  A number of yes votes greater than or equal to 2/3 the census current at the
start of voting on the amendment, dropping any fraction therein

 

[donsig]

Even if the poll does not fail we can re-write this article. DaveShack's proposal looks good but I'm not so sure I agree with excluding abstain votes from the census. Citizens who vote in the elections should be counted, shouldn't they?

 

[Cyc]

I believe that's the entire reason for the ABSTAIN vote, donsig.

 

[DaveShack]

Originally posted by donsig
I'm not so sure I agree with excluding abstain votes from the census.

I'm not hung up on that clause either way. It was only included because I saw a post or two bringing up the idea, and several "me too" type posts.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by donsig
Even if the poll does not fail we can re-write this article. DaveShack's proposal looks good but I'm not so sure I agree with excluding abstain votes from the census. Citizens who vote in the elections should be counted, shouldn't they?

Agreed.

Usual comment - add "All fractions shall be dropped."

Strider - I have three concerns about a "poll" thread. First, we would have a moving target for a census - the threshold early in a term would be lower than later in the term. So, when you define what the census is? Second, some people prefer to simply vote in polls, and don't participate in any other way. Third, and most important, we define citizenship as having registered in CFC and in the Citizen thread. A person who has done both is a citizen, regardless of the degree of their participation. The only good measure we will generally have is the election polls.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

Looks good to me if we drop the "excluding ABSTAIN votes" as donsig has stated. I believe DS's proposal includes a blurb about dropping fractions, Ravensfire.

Let's get this polled again. Maybe we can get this one passed along with an understanding of what it means.

 

[ravensfire]

And so it does Cyc, and so it does. And the brain spasm strikes again!

It is a bit later than I would prefer though. I think it makes more sense to put it at the end of I.1. The census is then defined as a whole number. As it is written, we would need to put "drop fractions" in the CoL and CoS amendment process.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

I see your point about saving words in the CoL and the CoS. Therefore let's add the wording to I.1, but let's also leave the wording in 2.c as it is.

Having said that, we may also need to put the extra wording in the CoL and CoS anyway. Let's make these small adjustments and poll this sucker...

 

[DaveShack]

So to be complete, the new wording accounting for comments is:

I.  Census, and Amending the Constitution
  1.  The census shall be defined as the average number of votes cast,
dropping fractions, in each of the contested elections in the most recent
general election.

  2.  Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution shall require each of the following
    a.  A poll which is open for at least 48 hours, which states the text of the
proposed new section(s), the text of the section(s) being replaced, and posing
the question in the form of yes / no / abstain
    b.  A majority of yes votes
    c.  A number of yes votes greater than or equal to 2/3 the census current at the
start of voting on the amendment, dropping any fraction therein

 

[ravensfire]

Looks good to me, DS!



-- Ravensfire

 

[DaveShack]

A new ratification poll has been posted here