Did Jesus live in India?

Plotinus,

what about the alleged non extant gospel *Q*? Couldn't it speculatively be considered a early gospel perhaps written by those who knew Jesus, if it indeed existed?
 
Well. if what you say is correct about the NT, then Christianity was carried forward from 30 AD until the end of the 1st Century on pretty tenuous legs. The oral tradition must have been very strong during the first 50 years and probably grounded more on the charisma (not quite the right word) of the people rather than the content of the stories they told. Those folks who had experience with Jesus must have embodied something sufficiently different and visibly noticeable. Christians will say it was the holy spirit and leave it at that. And from a mystical pov that is enough. But if so few stories survived long enough to be included in Mark, then what were christians talking about for 50 years? Well candidates could be:

1. How Jesus/christianity fit or didn't fit into Judism? What can I eat? etc.
2. Personal stories of their lives and how christianity changed it
3. Recollections of meetings with the Apostles or other christian celebrities of the day

While intellectuals may have discussed things on a philosophical level, the ordinary person probably would not have. They would stick to the immediate impact of being a christian and how they could impress their neighbor.

So when someone finally said "Hey, wait a minute, we better get something down on paper for the kids," the actual events had mostly been lost. As communities reached a critical mass of followers and could organize into structured groups, then more formal rules of expressing belief would emerge.

To get back on topic: I fJesus was the son of god as christians claim, then the trip to India after the ressurection is perfectly possible. Death on the cross is no more difficult to pull off than raising others from the dead. After sending the apostles on their way to spread the good news, Jesus heads off to India on other godly business. There is no reason to think that god had only one agenda in sending his son to earth.
 
@BirdJaguar

My impression is that early Christianity was extremely diverse... extremely. Plotinus undoubtedly knows much more, but in the early stages, there was a great variety of ideas swirling around in what would later become consolidated. I'm not lending any credulity to the India hypothesis, just saying that it was pretty diverse in the 1st C.
 
There were indeed many fractions. But the strongest were one in which someone could become a christ only as Jew and the other who denied that. In the end the last fraction got the majority, also because of Roman persecution. We also should not forget that in these days christianity was much more a kind of doomsday religion. Many believed Armageddon was near. This changed but in the Bible there are still traces to be found. The damnation of the body and sex, which lasts until today, but now slowly dying, has its cause there.

Adler
 
Adler17 said:
There were indeed many fractions. But the strongest were one in which someone could become a christ only as Jew and the other who denied that.

Adler

Adler, I wasn't necessarily thinking of comparable or earlier Jewish factions ie. Essenes or schools which considered only Jews to be acceptable as Christians (an idea refuted in the Pauline letters IIRC). I was thinking more of the Gnostics, which were present in the first and second centuries.
 
There are several references to Jesus in non-Christian sources from the New Testament period.

Josephus writes in "Antiquities" 18: "At that time there appeared Jesus, a wise man, if indeed someone should call him a man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. He was the Messiah. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. For he appeared to them on the third day, living again, just as the divine prophets had spoken of these and countless other wondrous things about him. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, named after him, has not died out."

Clearly this passage can't be authentic, as no way would Josephus have called Jesus the Messiah. The passage has been altered by later Christian editors. However, most scholars agree that Josephus did actually write something here about Jesus, and that the later editors didn't just completely invent the entry.

Tacitus writes in "Annals" 15: "Nero created scapegoats and subjected to the most refined tortures those whom the common people called 'Christians'... Their name comes from Christ, who, during the reign of Tiberius, had been executed by the procurator Pontius Pilate."

Suetonius writes in "Claudius" 25: "Since the Jews were constantly causing disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome."

Clearly, Suetonius doesn't know much about Jesus, thinking that his name is "Chrestus" and that he was in Rome stirring up trouble. In fact some people doubt that this is a reference to Jesus at all.

So you don't get much information about Jesus from these sources. In fact, they're not *really* much good as evidence that he existed. After all, where do you think that Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius heard about Jesus from? From Christians, of course. They knew his name because Christians talked about him.

However, for all that, there's certainly no doubt that Jesus existed, and we don't need a couple of vague mentions in contemporary historians to know that. The evidence of the Gospels is enough, really.

Jonatas, I do think that Q existed (and I believe that a broad majority of scholars think so too), but assuming that it did, it wasn't a Gospel. It was simply a collection of Jesus' sayings. Or at least, that's what it seems to have been, judging by the common non-Markan material in Matthew and Luke. But of course we know very little about it or the circumstances under which it was written. I don't know that there's any particular reason to suppose that it was earlier than Mark or that it was written by people with particularly close access to the historical Jesus. After all, Mark evidently didn't know it - would he have left out the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount by choice?

Birdjaguar, it is true that it all sounds terribly tenuous. But it's not quite as bad as you might think for those who want to use this stuff to reconstruct Jesus himself. For one thing, never underestimate the power of oral traditions in illiterate communities. In particular, bear in mind that when a story or saying is transmitted, details inevitably change in the transmission, but the "point" stays the same. Otherwise, it wouldn't get transmitted at all. What's more, popular teachers such as Jesus invariably taught in the form of pithy sayings or easily memorised stories. They expected people to repeat their teachings, and they made them easy to remember. After all, we all know sayings from the Gospels, because many are easy to remember - "Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's, and to God that which is God's," for example, or "Blessed are the poor, for they shall inherit the kingdom of God." Both of which, by the way, are probably authentic sayings by Jesus.

What this means is that the oral tradition is often considerably more conservative than you might initially think. Of course, the oral tradition is also capable of transforming stories and sayings to suit the situation of those telling them, and even of creating completely new ones. From the viewpoint of the early Christians, such alteration was perfectly legitimate (where it was deliberate) because they believed that the Lord was with them through his Spirit, and that the Spirit could give new teachings in this way. Whether Jesus had said the saying in question during his lifetime wasn't really the point. Remember that Paul's letters show surprisingly little interest in the earthly Jesus; presumably people only became especially interested in what Jesus did and said during his lifetime (as opposed to what he was going to do shortly, when he came again) during the next generation, the time when the Gospels were written. In other words, early Christianity was an eschatological religion, based around the expected imminent return of the Lord. Of course, this expectation was based in part upon the historical Jesus' own sayings and actions, but it seems that that was not people's focus. After all, read the speeches of the apostles in Acts, and see how much they say about Jesus' life other than his death and resurrection. Virtually nothing. So Birdjaguar is right to say that for much of this period, Christians were talking about other things. But of course they were still followers of Jesus for all that, and they were still passing on the traditions that would later be written down in the Gospels. And they did pass on quite a lot. Even if you remove the repeated versions of stories and sayings that are shared by different Gospels, you still have a lot of material, in total, in the Synoptics alone.

The task of scholars, then, is to sift all this material and try to work out (1) how it can be categorised, (2) how individual stories match or diverge from the "genre" they are in, whether it be miracle story, healing, legal dispute, or whatever, and (3) what might explain the special features of each story. Then they are in a position to try to establish which of these record genuinely historical incidents or sayings, and to what degree they are historical. It's not an easy task but it's not impossible. I think that there can never be certainty with regard to any given saying or story, but still a broad picture of what Jesus was doing and the sort of things he taught is quite possible. It's a picture that's rather blurry around the edges, but not insubstantial for all that.

Adler - damnation of the body and sex was never a mainstream Christian view, being in fact a common belief of Gnosticism and explicitly condemned by the church on a number of occasions. Where it did arise, it came not from an emphasis on eschatology but from a fundamental belief that the world was evil and not the work of a good creator God. The rather negative attitude towards the body and sex typical of mainstream Christianity really arose in the fourth century, long after eschatology had ceased to be the main element in the religion.

And yes, Jonatas, first-century Christianity was indeed very diverse, probably rather more so than the New Testament suggests. Indeed there's plenty of diversity in there alone - just read Paul's account of the "Council of Jerusalem" in Galatians, or consider the fact that James is written explicitly to attack Paul's theology as presented in Romans. I suppose it was one of the problems that these first generations bequeathed to their successors that they had left a rather contradictory body of beliefs and writings that had to be reconciled with each other - but at the same time it was something of a gift too, as it gave Christianity a richness and breadth of tradition.
 
Plotinus said:
Jonatas, I do think that Q existed (and I believe that a broad majority of scholars think so too), but assuming that it did, it wasn't a Gospel. It was simply a collection of Jesus' sayings. Or at least, that's what it seems to have been, judging by the common non-Markan material in Matthew and Luke. But of course we know very little about it or the circumstances under which it was written. I don't know that there's any particular reason to suppose that it was earlier than Mark or that it was written by people with particularly close access to the historical Jesus. After all, Mark evidently didn't know it - would he have left out the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount by choice?

Plotinus,

You're right about the priority of Mark. It's been a while since I thought about these things, and my memory is verry rusty ;) I was referring to Q as a gospel in the same sense as "The Gospel of Thomas", which is also a collection of sayings, although somewhat gnostic.
 
Every apocryphal Gospel supposedly describing Jesus' early life (and he certainly wasn't a priest at any point) is obviously legendary. For example, you've got the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, where we find Jesus as a boy making model birds come to life or cursing his playmates when they annoy him. It's all about as likely as Jesus spending time in an Indian ashram...

It's just a matter of using your common sense. Is a document dating from over a century after Jesus' death, which not only purports to give detailed information about obscure periods of his life lacking in earlier documents but is full of lurid and improbable miracles, likely to be of much historical value? You might as well ask whether something like the Apocryphon of John better preserves the real teaching of the historical Jesus than the Gospel of Mark does. Most of these apocryphal works are late and incredibly legendary. While the canonical Gospels are perhaps later and more legendary than we would like, they are the only ones that preserve anything of historical value when it comes to reconstructing the historical Jesus himself. It's this mass of late and improbable legendary material about Jesus that makes me intrinsically very suspicious of claims like the ones with which this thread began - yes, maybe Jesus went to India, in the same way that maybe he delivered detailed teachings about the eternal Aeons of the Pleroma to select disciples, or in the same way that he spoke through a huge glowing cross that floated out of his tomb, or in the same way that all of Pilate's standards bowed to him when he was on trial. It all gets rather tedious after you've waded through enough of it.
 
Plotinus said:
It all gets rather tedious after you've waded through enough of it.

I've always been interested by the Gnostic texts though, for the contextual understanding they can give us of the diversity present in Early Christianity. Certainly that's what the Nag Hammadi did. I recall reading a few books by Elaine Pagels (I haven't read her later stuff though, don't know whether I would vouch for it) which were interesting in this regard. I think that if you're interested in a broader context of Early Christianity, it can be worth looking at.
 
Plotinus said:
[Rambuchan] And what's the connection between the ass on which Jesus rode into Jerusalem and Shergar? I think we should be told.
Yes, quite sloppy of me to leave that out. The connection between Shergar and 'the ass that Jesus rode in on' is less direct and obvious than that between Jesus, Tupac Shakur, Jim Morrison, Elvis and Biggie. The trail of physical evidence and testimonials that saturates Jesus' trip to Kashmir is not found for these two equidae, for it is but a conceptual connection between them. But there is one nevertheless and it is significant, even if quite tenuous.

Shergar was of course owned by the Aga Khan, an individual who is recognised by western nation states as being of equal ranking with other world leaders. Yet he is not the leader of any territorial kingdom, state or nation. Well, Jesus was such a leader too!
 
Plotinus said:
Every apocryphal Gospel supposedly describing Jesus' early life is obviously legendary. ...It's just a matter of using your common sense.

How did the early church fathers come to select the texts of the canonical New Testament? Was it their common sense? They certainly didn't have some of the scientific methods we have today. Or was selection based in part on advancing a particular agenda?
 
7ronin said:
How did the early church fathers come to select the texts of the canonical New Testament? Was it their common sense? They certainly didn't have some of the scientific methods we have today. Or was selection based in part on advancing a particular agenda?
Plotinus is in the UK and hopefully will provide the detailed answer by morning in the US. But IIRC, the church looked for writings that, for them, showed a direct connection to Jesus (written by a disciple or linked to a disciple). They, of course, did not have modern scholarship to correct the authorship errors people like Plotinus have found. I know there is more to this and I'm sure Plotinus will present a better, more complete, answer.
 
That's about right. The basic principle was that the writing should have been written by an apostle or close disciple of an apostle. So when people disagreed over whether a certain text should be in the canon, it was often because they disagreed over authorship. In the third century, Dionysius, patriarch of Alexandria, analysed the book of Revelations and concluded that it wasn't by the same author as the Gospel or letters of John. He therefore argued that it should not be considered canonical.

Of course, people in antiquity tended to assume that a book was written by the person whose name was attached, even with the most obvious forgeries. This is a bit surprising given how very common the practice of pseudepigraphy - that is, writing a text and claiming that some great worthy of the past was the author - was in antiquity. Think of how many texts there are supposedly by Plato, Aristotle, and any number of other worthies, even before you consider the Christian pseudepigrapha. Sometimes different texts attacked each other, more or less explicitly: look at 2 Thessalonians 2:2, which apparently attacks some other letter supposedly written by Paul (and note 3:17, which offers a way of ensuring that this letter is genuine). Of course this is rather ironic, given that many scholars think that 2 Thessalonians is actually itself pseudepigraphical - basically, the author is protesting too much that he is really Paul! In this case, the "fake" letter attacked in 2:2 would be 1 Thessalonians - which is by Paul!

Nevertheless, it didn't entirely revolve around authorship. Thus, the book of Hebrews is anonymous, and no-one knew who had written it. Many people suggested Paul (and, traditionally, it is identified as Pauline) but even in antiquity there was no agreement on this. As a result, Hebrews was not used in many churches until after the fourth century, when it was included in the canon. Thus, the intrinsic quality of a book was also apparently a factor.

Of course, you must bear in mind that the notion of a "canon" at all was something that developed only gradually. In Jesus' day, all Jews venerated ancient Jewish texts, but there was not a sense that some were specially "canonical" and the others were just old. That was a distinction that came about only after the Council of Jamnia at the end of the first century AD. Similarly in Christianity, the word "canon" meant not a collection of texts but the whole doctrinal, ethical, and liturgical tradition of the church, taught by Jesus to the apostles and established by them in the churches that they set up. This is how Irenaeus and Tertullian, at the end of the second century, use the word. In their minds, the writings of what would become the New Testament are authoritative because they reflect that tradition and are part of it. Of course, to show that they must also show that many of the writings apparently from that period are inauthentic - thus Irenaeus devotes much time to showing that there have to be precisely four Gospels, no more and no less, to exclude all the weird Gnostic ones.

So it's only after the 390s, when the canon of the New Testament was officially established, that you really get the sense of a "canon" of writings as opposed to that broader sense. But it wouldn't be until the Reformation that the stronger notion developed that the textual "canon" and the "canon" of tradition might actually be rival authorities, rather than complementary ones - that is, that church teaching and the Bible might be at odds with each other.

Again, you can get more information on all of these books (canonical and apocryphal) at www.earlychristianwritings.com, complete with possible dates and discussions of authorship, and all probably much more reliable than anything I might say.
 
The passion narrative discussion from that site is particularly interesting especially in how they date it.
 
Plotinus said:
It's very handy!

By the way, BJ - I'm in Singapore these days. Not sure what the time difference is, but it must be a lot...
Singapore :eek: What's with that? Are you writing a book on Buddhism? Japan is 14 hours earlier than NM, where are you in relation to Japan in time?

It's 11:30 at night on Monday in Albuquerque now.
 
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