Did the Patch Improve the AI's Warfare Ability?

[Socratatus]

The patch in general is good, but they need to tone down the maniacal insistence on war - Or make it optional.

It`s like someone else said, you now have to play in war mode from the start - it`s no more build up or try to be peaceful.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Umm...why don't you try King?

Cheers.

Not sure if you read my post all the way through, but I have been trying King. The first post-patch game I played was Emperor (which is what I used to play pre-patch) but I was very lucky with managing to win, so I thought I would try King, but in terms of the AI aggressiveness it's almost as bad. Hence Prince.

 

[manu-fan]

Not sure if you read my post all the way through, but I have been trying King. The first post-patch game I played was Emperor (which is what I used to play pre-patch) but I was very lucky with managing to win, so I thought I would try King, but in terms of the AI aggressiveness it's almost as bad. Hence Prince.

You're right, I was just going off your last paragraph that seemed self contained.

Cheers.

 

[JA_Lamb]

Hi blackcatatonic, if you mod, why not try to re-balance Leaders attitudes. If not, why not go to Creation & Customization forum, start a thread and request for help. There are some very capable people there that may take up your challenge.

IMO one problem is that the AI plays at Chieftain level and it's discounts allow it very quick growth that coupled with better strategic "decision making" makes them see you like a free lunch.

 

[Green_Power]

What I don't like about the changes is that they force you to adopt a very military-focused strategy early on if you want to survive. I always like to start peacefully and get a couple of wonders built in my capital but it doesn't seem possible to play that way any more.

This is not what I experienced. I finished a Large Standard Emperor game last night (diplo victory) and I played peacefully next to China and Japan! I built the most wonders also, at least early game (Oracle, Pyramids, Great Library, Great Mosque, etc).

I did notice that the AIs expand more aggressively now, it even seemed like I was back in Civ4 with all those tiny cities spread all over the place. The AIs also backstab more, so you feel more afraid now than before, which is great.

So, overall I think there's more challenge now. The AIs are less reliable (but in an acceptable way) and you need to be even more careful and cunning with who you make friends with. You need to bribe AIs to attack others and really need to watch out who likes who and who doesn't.

In summary, I feel the game is better after the fall patch. The performance increase is notable. Before I couldn't play large games and they are very playable now. The renderer is also improved, it's much more smoother to move around. The AIs attack and move now, something I never saw before. The AIs also attack you on every chance they get, while before sometimes they just missed opportunities. They are more deadly (really go for wounded and critical units) and guard their cities better.

My only grip with the game still is with naval invasions and sneak attacks (or lack thereof). I didn't get enough sneak attacks and I failed to see naval invasions. Alexander and Pacal had more troops, more research and more everything and they hated me and they never attacked me overseas. I didn't bother with building garrisons and sent all my men to a front far away from my costal cities because I felt that they wouldn't come to get me. They could have just steamrolled me.

Something needs to be done about naval invasions and sneak attacks to raise fear and tension, two critical aspects in Civilization games in my opinion. After they fix that I think Civ5: G&K will be on an equal foot or even better game than Civ4:BTS. Maybe on a next massive patch or expansion.

 

[Socratatus]

This is not what I experienced. I finished a Large Standard Emperor game last night (diplo victory) and I played peacefully next to China and Japan! I built the most wonders also, at least early game (Oracle, Pyramids, Great Library, Great Mosque, etc).

Interesting. I`m only on Prince (I had to go down one level) and no matter how peaceful I try to be, I`ll get wiped out unless I make sure I have a good military garrison and even then I will still get several DOWs out of the blue. It`s been this way for several games.

In fact, i`m about to lose this game to Boudica due to a constant succession of DOWs from her, france and Spain whom started it all. It was no peace from the start.

It`s becoming tiring.

 

[manu-fan]

Maybe Green Power built a good military early and it kept others from attacking. That seems to be the best way.

Cheers.

 

[Green_Power]

I didn't have a strong army, I was always on the bottom 1-3 Civs in Soldier's strength. But, I'm always very careful in making the right DoFs. Oh, and, never EVER declare war early or you'll always annoy someone and get into trouble, and maybe jeopardize the all game because of that.

Befriend a close neighbor. Nurture that relation. I was friends with Japan for the entire game! He did backstabbed Isabella but not me. Was I lucky? Maybe, in the beginning, but then I always kept very friendly. I even decided to let go tech stealing from him twice.

I feel that both pre-patch and post-patch the game can be won as much through war as through diplomacy. And that was an aspect I hated about Civ5 vanilla (don't get me started). Now, it's possible to win your way through diplomacy.

However, it depends on your neighbors. I feel that Nobunaga is very trustworthy. Be very friendly and treat him with respect and he will behave. I had two games where I was friends with him till the end (both pre and post-patch). If you're close to Attila or Khan your strategy needs to be different, and that's what's great about Civ, every game is different.

But, in summary, I didn't feel post-patch to be very different than G&K, however, I feel that all the changes they did were for the best. Now, please add more naval invasions and sneak attacks and I'll be a very happy man.

 

[thegingerninja]

I've noticed the same thing post-patch. They're putting a bit more variety into their units, but they seem to usually choose the strategy of outnumbering. Ever since the patch, I've been steamrolled by a backstabbing civ plenty of times, and they've been doing it even earlier than usual. This is happening even on Prince difficulty. It's not always possible to fend them off.

Two things on this.
Greece always have a massive army. You need to stay on defensive until you beat the attackers before you consider an offensive
NEVER TRUST KOREA. I have noticed that in every one of my games korea has been powerful, usually on another continent. They start by being friends but soon you can't sustain the friendship anymore (denounce requests, requesting practically all your resources etc) then you have a big enemy who won't sign a peace treaty, even if he is down to his last cities

 

[Fluxx]

Ok first of all, the AI's are monstrous now.
Normally I play on immortal and win 80% of my games, unless I get really bad spawn locations.

After the patch however I find myself having much more troubles with the AI.
Last game f.e. I had a snowballing Inca, who not only conquered two civs incredibly early, but also managed to get all wonder known to man in his capital.
1000 AD and he gets into the industrial age, having triple my score, and 2.5 times the next civ who is 2nd.

Note I do not find the AI more agressive, just building more units and managing their money incredibly well.
It is still the same as before the patch that if you are not building enough units early game, the AI will punish you for it and DOW.
Which is more than fine, and gives a far better game experience.
I have noticed that the AI attacks city states very early on now, and most civs in fact do this, not just the uberagressive ones.

So ya, overall the AI has significantly improved. In fact in such a way I might have to play the better civs again and cant use my fancy out of the box strategies.
Note that they really should dampen the bonuses the AI is getting now, since deity atm is stupidly difficult, and involves a good amount of luck.
The former is ok, the latter really should not be the case.

 

[Socratatus]

I decided to start a new game on the longest time period (the one after epic) and this at least seems to slow down the propensity of the AI to instantly declare war...

 

[JA_Lamb]

Yes the AI has been boosted. But the game has not been re-balanced. It seems that going down 1 level has not helped much.

The problem and a solution are as follows:
Unlike Civ4 where the "STANDARD_HANDICAP" in GlobalDefines referred to the human player's Handicap, in Civ5 it refers to the AI's handicap. If now one was to read in the Handicap File what a Chieftain gets at the beginning of the game as well as the inordinate amount of extra Techs and units against the higher levels of human players, one is astounded at the amount of Handicap the AI used to require. It must have been really bad.

But... the Devs have been quietly at work and now you have a better AI, so the answer is increase the level of the AI at Global Defines from CHIEFTAIN to WARLORD.

The XML code is towards the bottom of the Global Defines after "Post defines..." REM lines:

<Row Name="STANDARD_HANDICAP">
	<Key>HANDICAP_CHIEFTAIN</Key>
	<Table>HandicapInfos</Table>
</Row>

Change to:

<Row Name="STANDARD_HANDICAP">
	<Key>HANDICAP_WARLORD</Key>
	<Table>HandicapInfos</Table>
</Row>

Sorry this is Civ4 modding style directly to XML files, I know it's a No, No here, but it's only one line, and although it will clash with Steam, if you play offline and find it works for you then reconstitute the code, make a proper ModBuddy Mod and incorporate it in your games.

I'm still a nooby where ModBuddy is concerned and cannot make this mod for you guys, sorry still learning the differences between Civ4 and Civ5 modding.

 

[fatboris]

I was playing pre-patch vanilla then went to post-patch GK so sI'm not 100% which changes are fo which. That said, I most play Continents and my old strategy would be to take everyone on my continent down to 1 city then move to the next continent. I'd move the bulk of my units and leave 1 crossbowman for every 3 cities and a knight/cavalry to be able to quickly move where needed.

Today I was using that same strategy but while moving a worker I noticed Siam had put together 2 War Elephants, 2 catapults, and some melee units. Luckily I had gold to buy 2 cannons and a minuteman to add to my pathetic army. They would have marched straight into my Capital befre the 10 turns it would have taken me to move some units back.

While the patch has definitely added some challenges I think I'll do better as a player long term with it. There were quite a few poor choices I was making because I could get away with it. I find I'mnow putting more thought into how I develop my cities and how I manage them because I have to. My first game I played down 1 level as several had suggested but quit the game less than 50 turns in. I wanted the changes to shine the light on where my game could get better. After only 2 games post patch there's a big difference in how I do everything, not just the things that changed.

 

[Jimdigriz]

Ive been playing as Rome a lot (I just like the idea of sending legions and ballistas out at the mo!).

In my last game (which I had to abandon) I was surprised at the AI - they launched surprise attacks from two different directions (two different AI civs) in concert with each other. I was woefully unprepared for this as I just didnt think the AI would be smart enough to attack when they did - they attacked just before my crucial getting the iron online happened.

I was annoyed of course (had to abandon the game at that point!) but was also kind of happy that the AI realised my predicament! Suffice to say, in my latest game Ive been a lot more careful with the AI.

This is only Prince level mind. I have to say, I havent enjoyed Civ this much for years. The recent G&K has really made me play the game and Im hopelessly addicted (again!)

 

[Deaths Advocate]

I can't say i've noticed a massive difference. Perhaps i've not played enough.

 

[DeathFace]

I can definitely say that from my experiences so far with the fall patch that the AI is better at warring. I think this could be due to slightly better combat AI, but i'm sure that most of the success the AI has in combat since the patch is from the AI building and maintaining a larger military.

 

[The Leviathan]

Seemingly every AI personality will now attack a weak contender rather quickly. This isn't how human players play the game, and I don't believe that is how the AI should play.

You've never played Civ with a good human player then

 

[smallfish]

Its terrifying really... sometimes they are just dumb, sometimes they have flashes of brilliance that stuns you.

Like Muggins here. He had cannonae, I had cannoae... but he had Lancers and tons of crossbows to boot. Taking out Babylon was a real pain, especially when he had crossbows stationed to focus fire AND Knights to play double rolling with my meatshields.

But I still managed to whip him out of this bit of Mesopotamia...

Spoiler :

Then he did what I rarely expect hotheaded AIs to do: sit down, camp and focus fire while probably racking up experience with promotions (he took Honor so it should be fast)

Spoiler :

Problems began mounting up when I lost my melees one by one... yeah, putting them in front of Babylon to shield them from an Aztec advance wasn't really good idea, but not much of a choice even with Great Wall and Himeji because of those Lancers

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Thus I had to resort to... well, not really resort but this dagger slip movement became extremely necessary to break the deadlock with Muggins, before he got to fun stuff like Artillery or had a lucky Lancer or three plop Babylon away from me (it was degraded to red HP... yeah)

Spoiler :

This is a dangerous foe.

And its only on Emperor.

 

[thegingerninja]

I think that gatling and machine guns are very and possibly to powerful. Love them

 

[Browd]

Per-patch, gatlings were deliciously powerful. With their reduced strength post-patch, I find I'm losing them more often (they melt in front of Cossacks). Seems about right to me.