Did they fix diplomacy?

pennjersey83

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I just finished a game on Emperor where my allies didn't once stab me in the back. I made a declaration of friendship with America and Greece and they also made a declaration of friendship with each other. The other 5 civs hated me but me, Greece, and America were friends the entire game even though I was in 1st place the whole game. They even helped me fight my enemies and at times they would say "I am glad you're friends with Greece/America, I have done the same".

Anybody they denounced, I denounced the next turn.
 
By your post, I think it's you who has learned how to play the diplomacy, rather than it having been fixed.
 
By your post, I think it's you who has learned how to play the diplomacy, rather than it having been fixed.

Indeed. Smart player you are apparently.

I usually just don't do Friendships anymore since they ineveitably ask me for something i won't want to give up, and that always pisses them off, usually leading to war eventually.
That and someone usually hates the people i become friends with making trading more annoying.
 
I usually just don't do Friendships anymore since they ineveitably ask me for something i won't want to give up, and that always pisses them off, usually leading to war eventually.

The secret to that problem is to NOT HAVE IT until they have something in exchange. A little micromanagement in exchange for more control. For example, you have 3 cotton hexs, and you only need one for your people's happiness. You can "pre-build" the other two making sure they are not finished. Once you spot one of your friends with a surplus of something you need, THEN you finish your surplus resource exploitation imporvement, and trade it fairly with your friend. Works great! ;)
 
In my experience the diplomacy is entirely contingent on relative power levels - throughout today's game Polynesia was the weakest civ, and was invariably offering declarations of friendship. When I met the Americans, at a similar power level and with a larger military, they weren't even interested in open borders until a few luxury exchanges. This was actually the most peaceful Civ V game I've played, since the only war I was involved with was with Egypt, who were on another continent and didn't show any interest in attacking other than to capture my only city on that continent (which, given how bad the AI is at combat, took them literally half the game, when I was only defending with a few units. Citadels really stump the AI - it would consistency try and *surround* a citadel, regardless of how many units got shot by it as a result, and all attacking the defending unit achieved was to give it health and ranged defence promotions (it was a sad day when it finally succumbed to artillery bombardment).

EDIT: The "I'm glad you're friends with/you denounced Civ X" has certainly been in since I started playing.
 
I just finished a game on Emperor where my allies didn't once stab me in the back. I made a declaration of friendship with America and Greece and they also made a declaration of friendship with each other. The other 5 civs hated me but me, Greece, and America were friends the entire game even though I was in 1st place the whole game. They even helped me fight my enemies and at times they would say "I am glad you're friends with Greece/America, I have done the same".

Anybody they denounced, I denounced the next turn.

Wait... Wait a minute. Wasn't the AI supposed to "play to win"? I thought this was a very conscious design decision by Shafer and his crew? So there are really three possibilities here:

1. Teaming up with you was their best chance of winning (unlikely)
2. The AI is too stupid to figure out a good strategy
3. They game doesn't work the way it's supposed to work
 
It is great to see more people figuring out how to play this game without being massed DOWed on. The diplomacy works, a little vague at times, but it works. The real problem is the AIs lack of combat skills.
 
Wait... Wait a minute. Wasn't the AI supposed to "play to win"? I thought this was a very conscious design decision by Shafer and his crew? So there are really three possibilities here:

1. Teaming up with you was their best chance of winning (unlikely)
2. The AI is too stupid to figure out a good strategy
3. They game doesn't work the way it's supposed to work

It ought to have been, since what's the point in competition that doesn't play to win? As I've noted in the past I've seen little sign of it, though. However, I found today's game something of an exception - based on that experience I'd say it's not that the computer players aren't trying to win, it's that they aren't able to gauge how you're trying to win (unless it's by domination). I was going for a cultural victory on King, and playing a strategy that left me trailing in points throughout the game. I also had an island to myself, so I didn't invest heavily in military since the AI seems a bit scared of water - I've never experienced a full-blown invasion of my home continent from an overseas power in Civ V.

In this game, my closest neighbour was Egypt, who were going for a science victory. It was in their interests to be left alone, so they were offering declarations of friendship throughout the game.

Denmark turned out to be the other big player, already accumulating city-states. I'd only made sure I held Monaco, the state on my island (and a cultured one), so aside from competing financially for Monaco's favour at various points in the game, the Danes didn't seem to see me as a threat - and also eventually started offering declarations of friendship, perhaps to ensure noninterference in their war with Germany (whose main MO appeared to be trying to deny the Danes city-states by conquering them). At one point or another, both Egypt and Denmark tried to solicit my services in war, though I remained steadfastly neutral (I have also, in the past, run across AIs using war dec agreements to set me up against an enemy Civ and then declare peace themselves).

But I suspect they mostly ignored me because the computer had difficulty recognizing my passive accumulation of social policies as a threat; just enough military to tie up their resources if they attacked, but not enough to be a threat, no map presence as I was carefully avoiding settling areas where I could be I could be drawn into conflict (which set me behind in a previous game - against Egypt, in fact), and correspondingly low points. They didn't appear to actively try to beat me to any Wonders relevant to my victory condition - they did get Sydney Opera House while I was still building it, but probably only because I teched to Mass Media late.

It may also have had trouble identifying how a strategy can be changed; the UN was out in plenty of time to secure victory ahead of me. And if I'd stayed passively building up culture once I'd got my prerequisites, as perhaps the AI expected me to, it would have. Instead, not having any great need of technology or more culture at that point in the game, I just switched all my specialists to banks, markets and stock exchanges and turned my small number of highly developed cities to full wealth production (keeping just enough cultural development to secure advances on the Patronage tree, which hadn't been one of my five), allowing me to steal the votes that would have won Denmark the game.

All that aside, if the computer had genuinely played to win and played well, I was in no position to deny Egypt a science victory - for some reason that AI just didn't secure it.

It is great to see more people figuring out how to play this game without being massed DOWed on. The diplomacy works, a little vague at times, but it works. The real problem is the AIs lack of combat skills.

My last game on King was a pleasant surprise - I managed to be at peace with everyone (though only four civs) throughout the game, friendly with them all most of the time. Declarations of Friendship do seem to help.

The AI does diplomatically odd things, though - Denmark denounced Germany the turn they signed a research agreement (also the turn they'd signed a peace treaty), which is decidedly odd in principle. If Germany had indeed been "playing to win", they should have gone for a research agrement with me or the Egyptians, since neither of us had proven to be a threat.

Also, Egypt threw that game away - having made two spaceship components by the 1920s, and being unchallenged, it then proceeded to make no more at all, to the point that the game went on long enough for three sessions of haggling over city states in the UN (which Denmark reached late) and for me to complete the Utopia Project in the 2040s (having bribed Monaco and Belgrade successfully in the run-up to each UN vote - haggling over city states is a lot of fun, and very tense for a Civ experience, but they probably need to look into how this actually works in a turn-based game, since the last person/AI to play gets the final say in how the vote goes).
 
No, they have not fixed it yet, be prepared to have the AI's act really crazy and erratic probably 9 times out of 10. Some people try to make excuses and say you have to play a certain way to placate the AI. I feel that if they fixed diplomacy a player could try a bundle of strategies when dealing with the AI civs. You would not have to do everything so exact for them not to hate you, which most times they do end up doing anyway. Perhaps they will fix diplomacy in the next patch. I feel that they will look into fixing it, but it will be only one tiny step for making the system better. At this rate it will take them 500 years to fix the game properly and finish what should have been done to begin with.
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with diplomacy.

I don't think there really is any diplomacy.

It's widely known that the AI almost never declares a war when you have a DOF with them so you should make a DOF always when you do not want to start a war with that AI soon. On the other hand, no one knows what positive effect, if any, denouncing has.
 
No, they have not fixed it yet, be prepared to have the AI's act really crazy and erratic probably 9 times out of 10. Some people try to make excuses and say you have to play a certain way to placate the AI. I feel that if they fixed diplomacy a player could try a bundle of strategies when dealing with the AI civs. You would not have to do everything so exact for them not to hate you, which most times they do end up doing anyway. Perhaps they will fix diplomacy in the next patch. I feel that they will look into fixing it, but it will be only one tiny step for making the system better. At this rate it will take them 500 years to fix the game properly and finish what should have been done to begin with.

All Civ games get frustrating when everyone hates you and you can't placate them. Civ V's diplo issues go deeper than that - of course there's the erratic behaviour you mention, with backstabbing being so consistent. But on top of that there are the stupid 'you stepped into our borders, so we'll give you all our resources and gold to declare peace - oh, and then declare war ten turns later whatever the military situation' deals, the ease of exploiting AI civs' willingness to enter research agreements even with hated enemies, or to trade anything for gold (including open borders which won't benefit them), and their unwillingness to haggle down if they're the ones offering a deal.

Even fixing minor issues unrelated to the above might make the AIs' incompetence more tolerable - for instance they'll never trade one-of resources, even for one of your one-ofs, but could be programmed to add a positive bias to resources that their cities demand (so, if I want to trade 1 cotton for 1 gold one of my cities demands, the AI might be amenable if one of its cities demands cotton, say).

It's widely known that the AI almost never declares a war when you have a DOF with them so you should make a DOF always when you do not want to start a war with that AI soon. On the other hand, no one knows what positive effect, if any, denouncing has.

Does anyone know what effect it has at all? I haven't noticed that it has a noticeable effect on other leaders if an AI's denounced me.

Not only are these options not covered in the manual other than mentioning they exist, looking at the manual today I found that the AI civ diplomacy section is one page. Says it all, really...
 
I don't think there really is any diplomacy.

It's widely known that the AI almost never declares a war when you have a DOF with them so you should make a DOF always when you do not want to start a war with that AI soon. On the other hand, no one knows what positive effect, if any, denouncing has.

There is diplomacy. I think people are expecting to stay friends with everyone without making a single attacking unit. That isn't going to happen most of the time.
 
There is diplomacy. I think people are expecting to stay friends with everyone without making a single attacking unit. That isn't going to happen most of the time.

It never happened in older Civ games either, and the people raising issues with the Civ V diplomacy are familiar with that. That's not the issue - the problem is AI civs favouring bad deals, making erratic demands, declaring war when friendly, a general absence of information in-game on what prompted particular diplomatic decisions, and acts that make no sense in terms of the AI civ's goals. For example, today I was attacked by the Friendly Inca while they were already at war with Greece and most of the game's city-states (also on Emperor); I'd previously had two declarations of friendship with them (they had refused a third), but I'd remained carefully neutral in my dealings with Greece (except for allowing them open borders at one point), and a research agreement was, I think, ongoing when they declared war. At the time the relations dropdown had only one item - the positive "You gave us help when we asked"; in fact there was a positive and a negative with Greece, who were more interested in a declaration of friendship (which I refused in an effort to remain neutral) than my former friends the Inca. The only evident difference (both were more powerful civs than me at the time) was that the Inca had a bigger army.

Civ is a strategy game. I've argued at length elsewhere that as such it is rather weak in one key aspect of strategy - that of responding and adapting to opponents' strategies - however the area that it does and should allow control over is how you execute your own strategy. Since relations with other civs (including whether and which you want to go to war with) are a major part of deciding on a strategy (should I focus on a culture victory that forces heavy investment in culture buildings and techs with little military application, go for a domination victory, or play a balanced strategy that can defend well while teching etc.), the player has to be able to rely at least to some extent on the diplomatic decisions they make in a game. Bribing civs to stay on-side, making deals that benefit them, declaring friendship and so forth all become meaningless as strategic tools if relations could be decided by them taking a random dislike to you.

Or, as appears to be the case, if "We have a stronger military" outweighs all other diplomatic considerations the AI takes into account, the game forces a particular strategy which includes keeping military production ahead of the opponents - which is again a bad trait in a strategy game.

Having occasions where these things don't work is fine - certainly players who don't anticipate unexpected plays can quite reasonably expect to lose. Backstabbing has always existed in Civ games. But having it appear to be at best a 50-50 chance that your planned approach of providing the AI with favourable deals, declarations of friendship etc. will actually materially affect the way the game plays out makes a mockery of diplomacy as a strategic tool.

EDIT: Civs becoming randomly hostile/declaring war isn't the only issue - the flipside is that it's equally random whether a civ you want to remain neutral with (e.g. Greece in one game I mentioned, who I wanted to remain neutral with not simply to placate the Inca, but because they were gobbling up all the city-states I wanted, so was intending on fighting them eventually) decides to become friendly for no reason. Greece started off neutral and (other than returning an early worker before I knew what the larger context was; though this was balanced by them being upset that I was after the same Wonders), I didn't do anything to encourage them - but even once I declined their offer of friendship they became Friendly - which in turn probably annoyed my Inca neighbours.
 
Indeed. Smart player you are apparently.

I usually just don't do Friendships anymore since they ineveitably ask me for something i won't want to give up, and that always pisses them off, usually leading to war eventually.
That and someone usually hates the people i become friends with making trading more annoying.

You can ignore their requests without making them angry by pressing ESC.
 
It never happened in older Civ games either, and the people raising issues with the Civ V diplomacy are familiar with that. That's not the issue - the problem is AI civs favouring bad deals, making erratic demands, declaring war when friendly, a general absence of information in-game on what prompted particular diplomatic decisions, and acts that make no sense in terms of the AI civ's goals. For example, today I was attacked by the Friendly Inca while they were already at war with Greece and most of the game's city-states (also on Emperor); I'd previously had two declarations of friendship with them (they had refused a third), but I'd remained carefully neutral in my dealings with Greece (except for allowing them open borders at one point), and a research agreement was, I think, ongoing when they declared war. At the time the relations dropdown had only one item - the positive "You gave us help when we asked"; in fact there was a positive and a negative with Greece, who were more interested in a declaration of friendship (which I refused in an effort to remain neutral) than my former friends the Inca. The only evident difference (both were more powerful civs than me at the time) was that the Inca had a bigger army.

Civ is a strategy game. I've argued at length elsewhere that as such it is rather weak in one key aspect of strategy - that of responding and adapting to opponents' strategies - however the area that it does and should allow control over is how you execute your own strategy. Since relations with other civs (including whether and which you want to go to war with) are a major part of deciding on a strategy (should I focus on a culture victory that forces heavy investment in culture buildings and techs with little military application, go for a domination victory, or play a balanced strategy that can defend well while teching etc.), the player has to be able to rely at least to some extent on the diplomatic decisions they make in a game. Bribing civs to stay on-side, making deals that benefit them, declaring friendship and so forth all become meaningless as strategic tools if relations could be decided by them taking a random dislike to you.

Or, as appears to be the case, if "We have a stronger military" outweighs all other diplomatic considerations the AI takes into account, the game forces a particular strategy which includes keeping military production ahead of the opponents - which is again a bad trait in a strategy game.

Having occasions where these things don't work is fine - certainly players who don't anticipate unexpected plays can quite reasonably expect to lose. Backstabbing has always existed in Civ games. But having it appear to be at best a 50-50 chance that your planned approach of providing the AI with favourable deals, declarations of friendship etc. will actually materially affect the way the game plays out makes a mockery of diplomacy as a strategic tool.

EDIT: Civs becoming randomly hostile/declaring war isn't the only issue - the flipside is that it's equally random whether a civ you want to remain neutral with (e.g. Greece in one game I mentioned, who I wanted to remain neutral with not simply to placate the Inca, but because they were gobbling up all the city-states I wanted, so was intending on fighting them eventually) decides to become friendly for no reason. Greece started off neutral and (other than returning an early worker before I knew what the larger context was; though this was balanced by them being upset that I was after the same Wonders), I didn't do anything to encourage them - but even once I declined their offer of friendship they became Friendly - which in turn probably annoyed my Inca neighbours.

*bows to your greatness*
This is absolutely correct. All of this would be forgivable if the AI had decent combat skills, and they don't. I was once rushed by Germany with 8+ Warriors (I was in the classical age) and I managed to pump out two swordsman and defeat their entire army. I would prefer if the AI received a 25%-50% combat bonus labelled "AI Stupidity Compensation"

The random-ness of the diplomatic side of the game absolutely ruins it. I hope to god they are planning some sort of Expansion that gives the game Vassal States and upgrades the AI. Hell. I would pay for an AI upgrade...
 
*bows to your greatness*
This is absolutely correct. All of this would be forgivable if the AI had decent combat skills, and they don't. I was once rushed by Germany with 8+ Warriors (I was in the classical age) and I managed to pump out two swordsman and defeat their entire army. I would prefer if the AI received a 25%-50% combat bonus labelled "AI Stupidity Compensation"

The random-ness of the diplomatic side of the game absolutely ruins it. I hope to god they are planning some sort of Expansion that gives the game Vassal States and upgrades the AI. Hell. I would pay for an AI upgrade...

The sad thing is, this puts so many people off the game and is, I suspect, the target of so many of the unfounded 'dumbed down' criticisms. I've been pretty vocal in my support of Civ V, although mostly that's resulted from pointing out that it's ultimately a lot more similar to Civ IV than nostalgia fans like to admit, but despite that I'd never really gone through a Civ addiction phase with the game. I don't think that's Civ V's fault per se - I also couldn't get back into Civ IV - it's just the way that once you have a really great game of Civ, you can't put it down - and somehow that just hadn't happened with Civ V until a couple of days ago.

The key reason it did, I think, was that in that game the AI actually behaved as it should. I made diplomatic decisions, I made the strategic decision to develop my 6 island cities rather than expand and risk conflict I didn't want to devote resources to dealing with (going for culture victory constrains your development path quite tightly, I find) ... and it actually worked. I haven't put the game down since, even with some more frustrating games. Civ V is a great game and a worthy member of the series (and the new combat systems makes the scenarios great fun, at least the one I've played), but it's easy to see why people decide there's less so much strategy than in previous games, when there's no technical reason in the game design for doing so, if the key flaw is that playing strategically simply doesn't work because the AI will ignore it altogether.

If you are looking for a game with more...aggressive...AI, then disable Diplomatic victory.

Actually, I think the influence system is weighted so that the AI is more likely to get aggressive if you go for diplo victory, particularly as it seems that in games at higher levels, with numerous civs, diplomatic is the most common condition the AI tries. The reason I say it's weighted that way is that the AI gives separate negative modifiers to relations to "You are after the same City States" and to "You are after the same victory condition", so the more players are after diplomatic victories, and the more conflict over city-states, the more aggressive rival civs will be.
 
Yeah. Of all of the issues and things that people hate with Civilization V, I think all would be forgiven except the terrible AI. The combat, the diplomacy...

The AI works much better in the Civ5 NiGHTS mod, where they are modified to favor early expansion over massing warriors. This decision makes them immensely more difficult to play against, no longer do you have an empire twice the size of the enemy.
 
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