Dido Terrible

[MarigoldRan]

On some maps when she can expand peacefully, she's great. But 2/3's of the time she ends up with a cruddy low production city on the coast next to some warlike AI inland. So you end up with a generic civ forced into an archer war with no bonuses and a bad starting city.

Moderator Action: Please take care with your thread titles. I have corrected this one. In future, I will delete your threads if they continue to be provocative. leif
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[Pietato]

Here we go again...

 

[Kibikus]

She ain't no Canada, that's for sure...

 

[MarigoldRan]

Definitely not. She's basically Canada on most maps, but without the 4 Faces of Peace bonus. I.e. all of the bad parts of Canada with none of the good parts. The only time I'm going to consider her is Archipelago or Island Plates, and even then Indonesia, Norway, Spain, or Brazil are arguably better.

Dido's main problem is her loyalty protection bonus applies only to cities she founds. So she can't conquer anyone with an amphibious assault because she immediately loses the city to rebellion.

Does anyone have a mod that eliminates loyalty issues for ALL coastal cities for Dido, and not just the one she founds?

 

[kb27787]

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk coulda told ya that...
When she was announced I immediately knew she sucked compared to the other OP GS civs... I even liked pre-patch Canada better than her.

Extra routes are not bad but the very strong coastal bias (I recall rerolling 10+ starts with her on Pangaea and was never able to avoid the coast) ruins the civ. I prefer a vanilla civ that has a hills bonus to her (yes, Tamar)

 

[Shorlin]

I find her interesting and fun to play as long as you don't get screwed by continent RNG. Her 'full loyalty for coastal cities on home continent' feels like a cheat code and allows for a unique war and expansion play style.

 

[Tech Osen]

Imagine the satisfaction when you can pull of a win with her anyway.

 

[Jman5]

Dido's main problem is her loyalty protection bonus applies only to cities she founds. So she can't conquer anyone with an amphibious assault because she immediately loses the city to rebellion.

Does anyone have a mod that eliminates loyalty issues for ALL coastal cities for Dido, and not just the one she founds?

This is what frustrates me most about Dido. Capturing coastal cities on your continent doesn't give you the full loyalty bonus. You also can't switch capitals to captured cities. If they were to open up those bonuses, she would be a lot more fun to play.

 

[Leucarum]

This is what frustrates me most about Dido. Capturing coastal cities on your continent don't give you the full loyalty bonus. You also can't switch capitals to captured cities. If they were to open up those bonuses, she would be a lot more fun to play.

Agreed. Her capital shifting would be considerably more interesting, and not remotely overpowered I suspect, if it also affected captured cities...

I like her cheap settlers, tonnes of trade routes and on the right map her ships can be fun for a quick rush. I enjoyed the games I played as her well enough, but her niche isn't my favourite out there.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'll guess that she would be better (good) if the Harbor were better placed in the tech tree.

 

[Ziad]

Phoenicia fills a peaceful expansionist forward settling early naval supremacy niche. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and it's off-meta enough that the average player won't know what to do with her.... especially with the Pangaea/no navy heroes in this forum. Why on Earth would you ever play her on Pangaea... ? It's like playing Inca on a very old world Archipelago.

That being said I doubt it would be overpowered to get the bonus from conquered cities, so that change would be alright really. It wouldn't be thematically appropriate though but then again neither is razing and resettling which is arguably very game-y.

I've played twice on Small Continents so far and I find it to be the most appropriate map for her.

I'll guess that she would be better (good) if the Harbor were better placed in the tech tree.

I find it really doesn't matter as you basically always go for Free Inquiry with her almost all the time anyway to support your early expansionism and Cothon spam so you quickly make up for any lost tech.. I think Phoenicia is actually balanced around a virtually guaranteed Free Inquiry which can be good or bad depending on how you view it.... can say the same about the Colonial cards.

I think its current position is fine. What I think could be improved is making Celestial Navigation connected to other techs rather than being a leaf.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Phoenicia fills a peaceful expansionist forward settling niche with the occasional naval war thrown in. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and it's off-meta enough that the average player won't know what to do with her.

Especially with the Pangaea heroes in this forum. Why on Earth would you ever play her on Pangaea... ? It's like playing Inca on a very old world Archipelago.

That being said I doubt it would be overpowered to get the bonus from conquered cities, so that change would be alright really. It wouldn't be thematically appropriate though but then again neither is razing and resettling which is arguably very game-y.

I've played twice on Small Continents so far and I find it to be the most appropriate map for her. Seven Seas with high sea level also works (and is arguably more thematic with the Med and all).



I find it really doesn't matter as you basically always go for Free Inquiry with her almost all the time anyway to support your early expansionism and Cothon spam. I think its current position is fine. What I think could be improved is making Celestial Navigation connected to other techs rather than being a leaf.

Put harbors at sailing and they'd be plenty good.

 

[Ziad]

Put harbors at sailing and they'd be plenty good.

Isn't that effectively removing Celestial Navigation then?

Sailing might be a little too bloated at this point.

Not saying I disagree but I'm not sure Firaxis would approve.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Isn't that effectively removing Celestial Navigation then?

Sailing might be a little too bloated at this point.

Not saying I disagree but I'm not sure Firaxis would approve.

You'd have to move some stuff around for sure, but it'd put them on equal footing with the other early districts and probably make them more desirable. You would want more coastal cities because they'd be so much earlier than commercial bubs. And by extension, make the cothon a super awesome UD (which in my opinion is the most interesting thing about the civ anyhow).

 

[Ziad]

You'd have to move some stuff around for sure, but it'd put them on equal footing with the other early districts and probably make them more desirable. You would want more coastal cities because they'd be so much earlier than commercial bubs.

I can definitely see how this would address issues pertaining to early coastal cities in general.

They did say they want to buff coastal cities.

 

[Leucarum]

Phoenicia fills a peaceful expansionist forward settling early naval supremacy niche. It's not everyone's cup of tea, and it's off-meta enough that the average player won't know what to do with her.

Especially with the Pangaea heroes in this forum. Why on Earth would you ever play her on Pangaea... ? It's like playing Inca on a very old world Archipelago.

That being said I doubt it would be overpowered to get the bonus from conquered cities, so that change would be alright really. It wouldn't be thematically appropriate though but then again neither is razing and resettling which is arguably very game-y.

I've played twice on Small Continents so far and I find it to be the most appropriate map for her. Seven Seas with high sea level also works (and is arguably more thematic with the Med and all).



I find it really doesn't matter as you basically always go for Free Inquiry with her almost all the time anyway to support your early expansionism and Cothon spam so you quickly make up for any lost tech.. I think Phoenicia is actually balanced around a virtually guaranteed Free Inquiry which can be good or bad depending on how you view it.

I think its current position is fine. What I think could be improved is making Celestial Navigation connected to other techs rather than being a leaf.

It always felt to me as if Dido was a 'fixed' version of how the originally intended Victoria's England to play... I like that she has a very distinct playstyle and as you said it's unusual enough that it makes for a nice change. On the right map I don't know if I think she's quite as bad as people are making out. Those extra trade routes are great and unless you are on pangaea it's usually possible to swipe some early conquests with your biremes which can set you up nicely. Maybe it's the latter part that made firaxis not count loyalty for captured cities.

And I can't be the only one who enjoys playing civs on maps totally unsuitable for them, cold archipelago Mali anyone?

 

[iammaxhailme]

I think that moving capital thing is so niche that it's barely worth considering

 

[Ziad]

It always felt to me as if Dido was a 'fixed' version of how the originally intended Victoria's England to play... I like that she has a very distinct playstyle and as you said it's unusual enough that it makes for a nice change. On the right map I don't know if I think she's quite as bad as people are making out. Those extra trade routes are great and unless you are on pangaea it's usually possible to swipe some early conquests with your biremes which can set you up nicely. Maybe it's the latter part that made firaxis not count loyalty for captured cities.

And I can't be the only one who enjoys playing civs on maps totally unsuitable for them, cold archipelago Mali anyone?

It's more like...all her bonuses are related to a single geographic property (coast) as opposed to Mali which exploits hills, deserts, and land-based districts. Archipelago still lets you exploit all that.

Phoenicia needs coast to be relevant. I've played her on Continents that might as well have been Pangaea and did fine but I still had to settle all along the coast and eliminate naval city competition (which was fun).

That being said I have never played her on basic Archipelago or Island Plates because that's essentially too much in the opposite direction... it's too easy. Island Plates(low sea level)/Continents was probably the best option til now.

Small Continents or Seven Seas(high sea level) are really, really fun for her and have enough land that it isn't exploitative of AI shortcomings.

 

[Ziad]

I think that moving capital thing is so niche that it's barely worth considering

False. Moving the capital is essential to exploiting one of Phoenicia's strongest bonuses which are the home/foreign continent bonuses. These include policy cards (eg: colonial taxes), wonders (eg: Casa), and dedications (eg: Draconis) among others.

I can manage to gain an additional +40% gold, +25% production, +15% faith, +15% growth in my core cities (including Tyre) if I get Casa (never failed to do so since it's in a conveniently accessible tech path).

%modifiers are rare in Civ6 for a reason. Base bonuses are high enough as it is and % modifiers are tuned with the assumption that they will mostly affect satellite cities with relatively poor output. 40% more gold with massive trade routes from very well developed cities is A LOT.

It's rather obvious that Phoenicia was balanced around these capabilities (as well as a very accessible Free Inquiry).. which is why her strengths aren't immediately obvious as +1 production on a tile.

 

[King of Prussia]

My first game for the new patch was playing as Dido. I had a lot of fun with her on the new 7 seas map. Tons of money thanks to all of the trade income. Plenty of food/prod as well. Cothons + Gov district made spamming settlers to all of the nearby lands quick and profitable even without needing to use the policy card. Spammed a few boats and attacked my neighbors.