Dido Terrible

[kb27787]

You got a screenshot a few posts before that shows a coastal start with a coastal civ with plenty of production.
Different tiles have (and should) different yields. Sea tiles have food and gold, longer range traders and movement/los unhindered by terrain. You want production, you make damn well sure to found your city near some hills.

It might look nice, but trust me, that city midgame will be anything but stellar. Housing is one thing (and we see the city is penalized with -50% growth already; 3 housing for coastal cities + 1 from palace, so 4 housing; assuming the tiles being worked are bananas, whales and grassland woods amber) the most important thing is that 60-70% of the cities' tiles are wasted on water.
2 eras or so later, where you could've had a size 15 capital, you will end up with something that will struggle to grow to size 10.

And really, I rerolled so many times with Dido, and the start in the screenshot is way better than all my rerolls. That is a very rare "good" start.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

You got a screenshot a few posts before that shows a coastal start with a coastal civ with plenty of production.
Different tiles have (and should) different yields. Sea tiles have food and gold, longer range traders and movement/los unhindered by terrain. You want production, you make damn well sure to found your city near some hills.

It's an issue of real estate. There's a better chance you end up having to cover up those good tiles with districts if half of your radius is water.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Until you realize that if you built a city in a zone without production it's your fault entirely
You don't build cities in green flatlands with 0 production, do you? then again, the more I read this forum the more I'm convinced that people think coastal city = 1 tile land + 30 tiles water.

Sometimes I start cities in big boring green fields, but usually not until midgame or later. I prop them up with internal trade routes until they at least have a theater square or campus running

 

[kryat]

It sounds great in theory...

Until you realize that that coastal city (2 pop) takes 20+ turns to build a stupid lighthouse to get the route.
Half price harbor does comparatively little to help offset this.

Swimming in gold... sure... when you inevitably have less strategics to sell early (due to wasted water tiles) and when your crappy cities require 260 gold each to at least become somewhat useful (to get to build a 2nd district that is directly related to your victory type). In my only deity Dido game (just to get the achievement on Steam), I moved inland and that was how I managed to get a decent game. You want the government plaza and its building out in a timely manner for the free routes, and a crappy coastal capital is not going to cut if.

People should try and play her on deity and you will see that she STRUGGLES due to the start bias a lot against other civs which get a more inland starting position and forward settles you. At least with inland civs you have other directions you could potentially expand to... with Dido, if you play her as the devs meant her to be played I guess... she resolves this problem by sneaking in crappy cities along the coast in the midst of other empires and rely on the loyalty immunity. (That said, settling the city brings a guaranteed diplo hit... there is the possibility of war, AND she gets very little out of the city itself).

Crappy, crappy, crappy.

I find that when I lean into the strengths of the civ, not trying to play each like a blank one, things get easier. That 260/city is nothing in the long run. Nor is the gold for the lighthouse. The gold those trade routes will rack in far outpaces the cost of investment, especially when bought early. My immortal Dido games have felt relatively easy, even if they did start a bit slow. But when you’re making >>1k GPT by mid-late game, that investment in a granary feels like nothing.

 

[Ziad]

It might look nice, but trust me, that city midgame will be anything but stellar. Housing is one thing (and we see the city is penalized with -50% growth already; 3 housing for coastal cities + 1 from palace, so 4 housing; assuming the tiles being worked are bananas, whales and grassland woods amber) the most important thing is that 60-70% of the cities' tiles are wasted on water.
2 eras or so later, where you could've had a size 15 capital, you will end up with something that will struggle to grow to size 10.

And really, I rerolled so many times with Dido, and the start in the screenshot is way better than all my rerolls. That is a very rare "good" start.

You play her on Pangaea. That's no bueno.

And 60%-70% is hyperbole, unless you're settling islands... which you shouldn't do unless they are teeming with resources.

I have not experienced what you claim, in all my games so far.

 

[Brutus2]

I love this game but sometimes I swear something in the random map code is designed to give the least favorable map for the civ I select. I choose a war focused civ and end up on a continent all to myself. I choose a civ that relies on a specific terrain or feature and can't find it outside of the first city start bias area.

For my second game with the new patch I went with Dido on Seven Seas map. I figured it would have plenty of opportunity to build Cothan and naval units, maybe invade some AI coastal cities and move my capital around but no, none of those things were necessary. My first city is on the coast of a large sea (almost like the inland sea map) but I have this large continent almost all to myself. There are dozens of great locations to settle new cities inland with lots of rivers, mountains, and resources and so I have expanded to about 16 cities all on the same continent mosty building commercial hubs on rivers because they are not near any coast.

So let's see...

Never had any need to move capital. Yes, I could move to another continent and use colonial policy cards to boost my other cities but they are already so good, it hardly seems worth it to have just my capital all by itself on another continent and I really don't need more cities.

Increased district production in one city and a few extra trade routes from government district is ok but not huge.

I have maybe three coastal cities total so the full loyalty and faster settler embarked movement was useless.

Eureka for writing is typically one of the easiest to get anyway.

I built exactly one bireme before they became obsolete. Early trade routes are typically domestic so a naval unit that protects trade units in the ancient era is kinda useless.

I had plenty of space to expand so the increased settler production from Cothan and Government district in capital was somewhat helpful. Never needed the increased naval production since I had plenty of space to settle peacefully.


I'm not saying Phoenicia is bad, just that the maps never seem to cooperate with the civ that I select and in this case being on a large continent with many great spots for inland cities, I got almost nothing from Dido. I really thought she would be good on seven seas map but now I think she is archipelago or island plates maps only.

I should mention that I really do like the seven seas map, it just would have been more fun with a different civ. Of course then the map would have found some other way to mess with me!

 

[kb27787]

You play her on Pangaea. That's no bueno.

And 60%-70% is hyperbole, unless you're settling islands... which you shouldn't do unless they are teeming with resources.

I have not experienced what you claim, in all my games so far.

Really? Let us do the hard math. A city can work 3 rings, each containing 6, 12 and 18 tiles respectively.
In other words, 36 tiles total; I counted from that picture only 13 tiles (excluding mountains and water) that are actually land tiles.
That actually comes out to only 36%, so 64% of your land are pretty much trash tiles.

I suppose I can be generous and say the fish and whale tiles are not completely trash, so I can give you 3 tiles more. There, so the number drops down to 55% trash.

Once you factor in any wonders or non-harbor, non-water park district tiles the number becomes even less. Good luck fitting in a campus, theatre and neighborhoods and still having room for a wonder or two while still having some tile yields in any shape or form. Moreover, flatland for spaceport is scarce if you choose to go science (if you take free inquiry it seems to suggest such).

Well I suppose with lucky Auckland and seasteads perhaps that city will EVENTUALLY get by.

Also, late game the capital city often gets 4th and 5th ring tiles to chop/harvest or even luxuries or strategics can be improved, even if they cannot be worked (or they can still be turned into national parks). If we do the math up to the 5th ring for example, I suspect 70% is very close to the actual % water.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Until you realize that if you built a city in a zone without production it's your fault entirely
You don't build cities in green flatlands with 0 production, do you? then again, the more I read this forum the more I'm convinced that people think coastal city = 1 tile land + 30 tiles water.

Unfortunately as Dido you don't have a choice sometimes, unless you want to spend 3-5 turns moving to someplace better. Coastal starts are biased towards grasslands. Half the time you won't even start next to a hill.

 

[steveg700]

It sounds great in theory...

Until you realize that that coastal city (2 pop) takes 20+ turns to build a stupid lighthouse to get the route.
Half price harbor does comparatively little to help offset this.

Swimming in gold... sure... when you inevitably have less strategics to sell early (due to wasted water tiles) and when your crappy cities require 260 gold each to at least become somewhat useful (to get to build a 2nd district that is directly related to your victory type). In my only deity Dido game (just to get the achievement on Steam), I moved inland and that was how I managed to get a decent game. You want the government plaza and its building out in a timely manner for the free routes, and a crappy coastal capital is not going to cut if.

People should try and play her on deity and you will see that she STRUGGLES due to the start bias a lot against other civs which get a more inland starting position and forward settles you. At least with inland civs you have other directions you could potentially expand to... with Dido, if you play her as the devs meant her to be played I guess... she resolves this problem by sneaking in crappy cities along the coast in the midst of other empires and rely on the loyalty immunity. (That said, settling the city brings a guaranteed diplo hit... there is the possibility of war, AND she gets very little out of the city itself).

Crappy, crappy, crappy.

It's often great in practice too. Great civ for sprawling. Buy the lighthouse, don't build.

A lot of cities have "wasted" tiles that's nothing unique to coastal city. Then again, there's nothing that Phoenicia is "meant to be played" as having nothing but coastal cities. How many cities does a play actually need to benefit from the cothon's production bonus? Mostly just the one with Magnus.

As for playing on deity, it may well be that she struggles--which is, of course, to say you struggle. Some civ's are pumped full of steroids and overpowered abilities that make them easier to play than Phoenicia. That's not a good basis for indicting a civ as crappy.

Having said all that, it certainly seems that water tiles could stand improvement. Seems obvious enough that they could just create a tile improvement that can be built on coastal tiles--wharfs or docks or some such. Should basically be the water equivalent of farms.

Would also like to harbors split off into a commerical harbor and a naval shipyard. The commercial harbor could be to the commercial hub what a water park is to an entertainment center. The naval shipyard provides parity with encampments and airports.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Having said all that, it certainly seems that water tiles could stand improvement. Seems obvious enough that they could just create a tile improvement that can be built on coastal tiles--wharfs or docks or some such. Should basically be the water equivalent of farms.

"Mines" on reefs seems like a low hanging fruit too.

 

[Ziad]

Mining reefs? The horror.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Well I mean it would probably look like any other old fishing boat but provide hammers instead

 

[kb27787]

It's often great in practice too. Great civ for sprawling. Buy the lighthouse, don't build.

A lot of cities have "wasted" tiles that's nothing unique to coastal city. Then again, there's nothing that Phoenicia is "meant to be played" as having nothing but coastal cities. How many cities does a play actually need to benefit from the cothon's production bonus? Mostly just the one with Magnus.

As for playing on deity, it may well be that she struggles--which is, of course, to say you struggle. Some civ's are pumped full of steroids and overpowered abilities that make them easier to play than Phoenicia. That's not a good basis for indicting a civ as crappy.

Having said all that, it certainly seems that water tiles could stand improvement. Seems obvious enough that they could just create a tile improvement that can be built on coastal tiles--wharfs or docks or some such. Should basically be the water equivalent of farms.

Would also like to harbors split off into a commerical harbor and a naval shipyard. The commercial harbor could be to the commercial hub what a water park is to an entertainment center. The naval shipyard provides parity with encampments and airports.

480 gold? Dunno about that... unless you guys really beeline naval tradition (and yet another leaf civic!) to double harbor adjacencies, this is worth dozens of turns of income at that point in the game...

"Meant to be played" or not, the fact is with coastal starts your cities are not in a nice, efficient cluster like a land empire, which makes for loyalty issues--AND since you probably will have less housing early you are at a disadvantage loyalty-wise due to city sizes (and yet another mechanic which makes coastal cities inferior... not to mention clustering from industrial zones and entertainment districts, as well as some wonders, less efficient).

Dido's UA is supposed to take care of that. You can only sprawl when there is space available, and most likely, you are going to have to sprawl into areas with negative loyalty pressure, but she can. It's mainly the loyalty immunity aspect which allows her to somewhat make use of the settler movement and production from the cothon. Move those cities inland such that they are no longer touching the sea and they rebel in 5 turns.

Well "crappy" then, is a relative term we can agree. If a civ is clearly inferior to almost all the others in the game, I prefer to call that civ "crappy" and the rest "not crappy". You would prefer to call the civ "OK" and the others--the vast majority of them I would say, "overpowered".

But in the end it is the same thing. I believe you'd think Georgia is overpowered because hills are so strong!

 

[Jman5]

Don't forget destroying naval competition. Is that a coastal city/trade route hub I see?

What naval competition? AI naval combat is so terrible that you don't need more than a couple generic ships to have complete superiority of the seas. Barbarians put up more of a fight at sea than regular AI empires because the AI spreads their ships all over the ocean.

Another thing I don't like about Dido is the writing eureka bonus she gets. It's probably the easiest Eureka to unlock in the game (meet one civ). At best it might have some use on Island maps, but even then that's a stretch. Now if you let the player start with Pottery that would be a lot more useful.

For the record, I think Dido is an interesting civ and I've mostly stuck to her since Gathering Storm came out. I just feel like the way you need to play her feels very scripted.

1. Choose Island map spawn for Writing Eureka advantage
2. Quickly rush Cothon and Ancestral hall to line up Settler bonuses.
3. Put Magnus with Settler skill in capital.
4. Pump settlers out for a time rapid expanding.
5. Try to get to Feudalism before you're done Rapid expanding so you can get free +worker charges when you settle.
6. Find a spot to settle a city on another continent that also wont get loyalty bombed immediately.
7. Switch capitals.
8. Grab Casa de Contracion Wonder
9. Beeline Colonialism and take Colonial taxes policy.
10. Profit

So yeah it works great when you follow the script, but I would just really like to see her abilities opened up more to let people do things differently without feeling like it's massively sub-optimal. For example making capital switching and continent loyalty bonus apply to captured cities.

 

[steveg700]

"Mines" on reefs seems like a low hanging fruit too.

Did not know that was an actual thing.

Tech era?

 

[Casualty of war]

It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Did not know that was an actual thing.

Tech era?

Nah, I'm just thinking it would be an easy thing to add for a small boost.

 

[MarigoldRan]

The trick to success is to always blame the failures on someone or something else.

 

[IvoryPavane]

As someone who has played mostly multiplayer only since GS came out, I think Dido is absolutely fine. (And by fine, I mean her core kit is absolutely fine. Coastal cities on the whole could use a bit of love and Dido will be a massive beneficiary of the upcoming coastal buff)

Her only issue I find is that her play style is quite readable, you know she is going to be in the coast and you know she is going to want to expand.

On the other hand, it’s very very difficult for humans to stop her doing those two things. she is impossible to take by the coast once a Cothon is established, and Free Inquiry means she rockets ahead in science early.

She has a strong start. Early science, early gold, early (ish) expansion.

I don’t know how she stacks up against the AI however. I don’t have much experience there. But against others who have the same start as you, she’s quite formidable (sans Pangea).

Interestingly, I’ve yet to see a game where the Inca come in top 3. Their UU is extremely, extremely easily counterable. Taking away Machu Pichu hurts them a lot (and I do it because I’m a petty queen). I wouldn’t ever attack them because their UU is good defensively and their terrain is annoying to cross but in my experience they don’t stack up well in multiplayer

 

[MarigoldRan]

Her necessary techs are all leaf techs. Unless you're playing a water map where you can galley rush (and conquer someone) she takes FOREVER to get set up.