Dido Terrible

Cheap harbors don't hustle out settlers. If anything they delay it because the techs to get it slow you down from getting things like BW or Wheel.

Faith however does hustle out settlers thanks to monumentality.
 
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Cheap harbors don't hustle out settlers. If anything they delay it because the techs to get it slow you down from getting things like BW or Wheel.

Faith however does hustle out settlers thanks to monumentality.
I think the point with Phoenicia is supposed to be that you'll play the tech tree differently than you would with other civs. If you play them as a vanilla civ with some other pasted-on abilities you're going to be disappointed.
 
Unfortunately you don't have a choice if you start next to Mongolia or Chandra. It's not like cheap harbors, sailing, and celestial navigation help you there. If you can get through the opening 50 moves unmolested, Phoenicia is fine.

But that's true for any civ.

And on island maps I'd argue Indonesia is simply better.
 
I think the point with Phoenicia is supposed to be that you'll play the tech tree differently than you would with other civs. If you play them as a vanilla civ with some other pasted-on abilities you're going to be disappointed.
Indeed. In my playing of them, they lend themselves to building a network of cheap harbors as settler factories, and maxing out trade routes. They obviously get their real snowball going with Ancestral Hall, both for its innate bennies and the extra trade routes. This is all sort of counter-intuitive considering that they're Phoenicia and superficially appear focused on the early eras, but that's not to say it's any more terrible than other civ's whose suites focus on the later game.

One change I wouldn't mind is them getting the cothon earlier than celestial navigation, or maybe their capital just gets to build one for free. And the bireme doesn't have any way to shine. It's not like we'll be taking out a bunch of coastal cities or city-states with it, since both of those tend to be rare. Maybe if you have pirate problems, but they layout of the Seven Seas maps I'm playing doesn't really lend itself to that, because ironically the map is mostly land (which is why there tends to be more space between civ's).
 
Unfortunately you don't have a choice if you start next to Mongolia or Chandra. It's not like cheap harbors, sailing, and celestial navigation help you there. If you can get through the opening 50 moves unmolested, Phoenicia is fine.

Using situational context as an argument is a fallacy in itself. In an overwhelming majority of the time you won't start next to a hostile Mongolia or Chandra that have nothing better to do.

This is like saying Mali is terrible because they can potentially maybe probably possibly start in a jungle with no desert within 50 tiles.

One can make a similar argument for any other civilization that doesn't have bonuses tied to geography. If you want all civs to be basic AF like Greece then have at it. The point of Phoenicia isn't to be omegalul OP on 50 turn deity games. It's a different approach.

And on island maps I'd argue Indonesia is simply better.

Phoenicia can put Indonesia on its knees if they are on the same map with far quicker settling and a much stronger naval game (yay more water improvements to pillage), and if Indonesia isn't on the map then how is this comparison relevant?

And the bireme doesn't have any way to shine. It's not like we'll be taking out a bunch of coastal cities or city-states with it.

A very valid strategy is building biremes and conquering a few cities before you get your expansion game on with the hall and cothon. It's certainly not that rare. City states are the easier targets though and if their bonus is useless then all the better.

And depending on the map you probably don't even need to do that, nor do you really need the Hall to start.In fact it's arguable that it's better to just expand with Phoenicia immediately as soon as you get a Cothon in every city you have.

One change I wouldn't mind is them getting the cothon earlier than celestial navigation, or maybe their capital just gets to build one for free

I think the upcoming buff to coastal cities will essentially be a massive buff to Dido's game. I wouldn't mind seeing the whole Sailing/Astrology/Celestial Navigation part of the tree shuffled a bit.
 
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I think the upcoming buff to coastal cities will essentially be a massive buff to Dido's game. I wouldn't mind seeing the whole Sailing/Astrology/Celestial Navigation part of the tree shuffled a bit.
What upcoming buff is this?
 
What upcoming buff is this?

Nobody knows exactly, but after all the production changes that disproportionately buffed land tiles, Ed Beach said on twitter that they are now looking into addressing coastal cities. I don't think they're in that bad a spot, but in general a bad coastal city is far worse than a land one... so it would be nice to establish better parity.

I made a thread on it with a poll and most people believe it just needs more district adjacencies (I agree... Harbor not getting IZ bonus is sad) and more powerful improvements (also agree).
 
Oh yeah, I posted some ideas in that one.

Like I said, there, they should split off the harbor into a commercial port and a naval shipyard. Man, if there's one thing that annoys me about going the route of a harbor over a commercial hub is getting admiral points instead of GM's.
 
Oh yeah, I posted some ideas in that one.

Like I said, there, they should split off the harbor into a commercial port and a naval shipyard. Man, if there's one thing that annoys me about going the route of a harbor over a commercial hub is getting admiral points instead of GM's.

I mean.... Commercial Hubs and Harbors go together like milk and honey. I almost always strive to build both especially with Free Inquiry. You rarely need to go for Theaters or Campuses early on as Phoenicia with all your cities.

There are a few early GMs though that are quite valuable for Phoenicia. The good thing is that you can often straight up buy them with Gold. I always try to get Marco Polo for example.
 
Oh yeah, I posted some ideas in that one.

Like I said, there, they should split off the harbor into a commercial port and a naval shipyard. Man, if there's one thing that annoys me about going the route of a harbor over a commercial hub is getting admiral points instead of GM's.
Yeah, honestly I don't even really know what to do with them. They usually just end up hanging out in the middle of the ocean for most of the game
 
Yeah, honestly I don't even really know what to do with them. They usually just end up hanging out in the middle of the ocean for most of the game

They're glorified era score producers :p

Their effects could use some buffs. However they are still useful for naval warfare and the loyalty can help Phoenicia settle some intense spots. Leif Erikson is an era score machine.

Frankly I think GAs/GGs could use more civil benefits. Why isn't there a GA that awards settlers or buffs Harbors for example? IIRC there's only one that awards an envoy and another that awards a great work.
 
I mean.... Commercial Hubs and Harbors go together like milk and honey. I almost always strive to build both especially with Free Inquiry. You rarely need to go for Theaters or Campuses early on as Phoenicia with all your cities.
I don't see any strong synergies. Not since we stopped being able to double-dip trade routes. There's a one-sided +2 adjacency bonus, but that's compelling reason to add a whole new district.

Now, I think harbors should synergism with most districts. If you have a commercial hub, you get more gold. If you have an IZ you get more production. If harbors are intended to be the argument for settling coastally, they ought to be really good.
 
Yeah, honestly I don't even really know what to do with them. They usually just end up hanging out in the middle of the ocean for most of the game
They should let a ship within their command range heal outside of friendly territory. Or, y'know, get rid of that limitation altogether. I don't know what land units are doing to raise their dead that naval units can't do.
 
I know what to do with Great Admirals. I get the one that lets me make a Fleet or Armada sooner than anyone else, even on Deity, and I shortly own all the coastal cities. I paired it with the GA that makes Ironclads on retirement last night, built the Mausoleum to get two retirements, and had two Ironclad Armadas while everyone else had Caravels.

Dido isn't outrageously powerful but, if you adjust your play style to her strengths, she can be impressive.
 
I don't see any strong synergies. Not since we stopped being able to double-dip trade routes. There's a one-sided +2 adjacency bonus, but that's compelling reason to add a whole new district.

Now, I think harbors should synergism with most districts. If you have a commercial hub, you get more gold. If you have an IZ you get more production. If harbors are intended to be the argument for settling coastally, they ought to be really good.

Oh I totally agree that Harbor needs more reliable adjacencies but the +2 by city center is already more reliable than most.

Still there is a lot of synergy to be had

1) Harbors produce a lot of gold. Coastal cities run on a gold economy more so than Production, so Commercial Hubs boost the relative value of the Harbor
2) Both benefit from the Free Inquiry GA
3) Both benefit from commercial city states
4) CH gives an adjacency bonus and since Harbors are usually near the city center the CH is the only reliable district that won't get screwed over by being placed near it on the shore (unless you Indonesia ofc)
5) Economic Union policy card

But yes I also think there should be a little bit more, especially with the June update. There are many ways to address parity. I'm a big fan of making GA have more civil benefits as one possible way. One way is to make them occasionally provide bonus trade routes and luxuries just like GMs.
 
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Oh I totally agree that Harbor needs more reliable adjacencies but the +2 by city center is already more reliable than most.

Still there is a lot of synergy to be had

1) Harbors produce a lot of gold. Coastal cities run on a gold economy more so than Production, so Commercial Hubs boost the relative value of the Harbor
2) Both benefit from the Free Inquiry GA
3) Both benefit from commercial city states
4) CH gives an adjacency bonus and since Harbors are usually near the city center the CH is the only reliable district that won't get screwed over by being placed near it on the shore (unless you Indonesia ofc)
5) Economic Union policy card

But yes I also think there should be a little bit more, especially with the June update. There are many ways to address parity. I'm a big fan of making GA have more civil benefits as one possible way. One way is to make them occasionally provide bonus trade routes and luxuries just like GMs.
To me synergy connotes things working together to get something you couldn't get individually. Doubling down on them for mo money is the kind of min-maxing that devalues players' respect for gold, because you just get so much of it that there's no meaningful meta. Some of those things you mentioned maybe should go the way of double-dipping trade routes. Which is why I advocate a commercial harbor being exclusive with commercial hubs the way water parks are exclusive from entertainment centers.
 
So I tried a game as Phoenecia as a result of this thread and one thing I've noticed is that on the small continents map type, there often aren't an enormous amount of early settler locations for anyone until you get shipbuilding... While that's quicker for Dido than most I think I might prefer her on continents maps as it lets her maximize her settler spam... I'm thinking a high sea level, young world, continents map would really be her jam. Land routes being slow due to mountains but plenty of room to grow along the coast...
 
So I tried a game as Phoenecia as a result of this thread and one thing I've noticed is that on the small continents map type, there often aren't an enormous amount of early settler locations for anyone until you get shipbuilding... While that's quicker for Dido than most I think I might prefer her on continents maps as it lets her maximize her settler spam... I'm thinking a high sea level, young world, continents map would really be her jam. Land routes being slow due to mountains but plenty of room to grow along the coast...

Low sea level Small Continents.
 
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