Dido Terrible

[Archon_Wing]

You'd have to move some stuff around for sure, but it'd put them on equal footing with the other early districts and probably make them more desirable. You would want more coastal cities because they'd be so much earlier than commercial bubs. And by extension, make the cothon a super awesome UD (which in my opinion is the most interesting thing about the civ anyhow).

Another alternative would be to make Celestial Navigation only require Sailing instead of having to get Astrology too.

I'm fine with deleting it entirely though, or maybe moving the GLH to it so we can forget about it entirely (both of them)

 

[kryat]

Agreed that rolling for a non-coastal Dido is just dumb. One of Dido’s greatest strengths is the half price harbor, which means faster produced trade routes. You should be trying to swim in gold from maritime trade.

 

[Ziad]

Agreed that rolling for a non-coastal Dido is just dumb. One of Dido’s greatest strengths is the half price harbor, which means faster produced trade routes. You should be trying to swim in gold from maritime trade.

Don't forget destroying naval competition. Is that a coastal city/trade route hub I see?

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I might do a dido game next. It turns out to suck for the Canada that I'm playing, but small continents map should be fun with her.

 

[Leucarum]

It's more like...all her bonuses are related to a single geographic property (coast) as opposed to Mali which exploits hills, deserts, and land-based districts. Archipelago still lets you exploit all that.

Phoenicia needs coast to be relevant. I've played her on Continents that might as well have been Pangaea and did fine but I still had to settle all along the coast and eliminate naval city competition (which was fun).

That being said I have never played her on basic Archipelago or Island Plates because that's essentially too much in the opposite direction... it's too easy. Island Plates/Continents with low sea level was probably the best option til now.

Small Continents or Seven Seas(high sea level) are really, really fun for her and have enough land that it isn't exploitative of AI shortcomings.

I may have to try another game as her for my next roll. She's a good candidate for the new map types...

 

[MarigoldRan]

1/3 of the time she's fine. The other 2/3's of the time she's awful.

 

[Ziad]

1/3 of the time she's fine. The other 2/3's of the time she's awful.

Well ignoring the arbitrary statistics you are providing, if your general idea is that sometimes a civ is randomly weaker due to geographic limitations, then you are literally describing most civs that have terrain dependent bonuses.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Which is one of the reasons why Canada and Inca are so good. Their bonuses are reliable.

 

[Ziad]

Which is one of the reasons why Canada and Inca are so good. Their bonuses are reliable.

If you play on Pangaea.

Also I'm lowkey giggling about Canada. Just yesterday they were trash tier according to people here.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Not anymore thanks to marketing by yours truly.

Inca's UU is good regardless of the map and terrace farms are always useful.

 

[steveg700]

Not anymore thanks to marketing by yours truly.

Well, if that was the case then hopefully your pitch for Canada was better than this one.

On some maps when she can expand peacefully, she's great. But 2/3's of the time she ends up with a cruddy low production city on the coast next to some warlike AI inland. So you end up with a generic civ forced into an archer war with no bonuses and a bad starting city.

Thing is, relating your disappointing experiences with a civ does not amount to something being wrong with a civ.

Some folks get dealt some rough hands, and then complain that the deck needs to be swapped out. Don't be that guy.

Maybe just learn to play the rough hands instead of petitioning for every civ to get pumped full of steroids. Which is what happened with Canada and England, and that in turn triggers more folks petitions, including such frivolous ones as this.

Maybe some civ's just don't get to have baller production.

EDIT: Just loaded up a game with Dido to check and see if I would have a crappy low-production game harassed by meanie neighbors. I must've gotten that 1 out of 3.

 

[MarigoldRan]

I got a start like that, too. Followed by 2 starts next to Chandra and Monty with no hills.

I would pitch Canada more, but I think I would get banned if I make more threads about them.

 

[kb27787]

Agreed that rolling for a non-coastal Dido is just dumb. One of Dido’s greatest strengths is the half price harbor, which means faster produced trade routes. You should be trying to swim in gold from maritime trade.

It sounds great in theory...

Until you realize that that coastal city (2 pop) takes 20+ turns to build a stupid lighthouse to get the route.
Half price harbor does comparatively little to help offset this.

Swimming in gold... sure... when you inevitably have less strategics to sell early (due to wasted water tiles) and when your crappy cities require 260 gold each to at least become somewhat useful (to get to build a 2nd district that is directly related to your victory type). In my only deity Dido game (just to get the achievement on Steam), I moved inland and that was how I managed to get a decent game. You want the government plaza and its building out in a timely manner for the free routes, and a crappy coastal capital is not going to cut if.

People should try and play her on deity and you will see that she STRUGGLES due to the start bias a lot against other civs which get a more inland starting position and forward settles you. At least with inland civs you have other directions you could potentially expand to... with Dido, if you play her as the devs meant her to be played I guess... she resolves this problem by sneaking in crappy cities along the coast in the midst of other empires and rely on the loyalty immunity. (That said, settling the city brings a guaranteed diplo hit... there is the possibility of war, AND she gets very little out of the city itself).

Crappy, crappy, crappy.

 

[SharTeel]

Until you realize that if you built a city in a zone without production it's your fault entirely
You don't build cities in green flatlands with 0 production, do you? then again, the more I read this forum the more I'm convinced that people think coastal city = 1 tile land + 30 tiles water.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Until you realize that if you built a city in a zone without production it's your fault entirely
You don't build cities in green flatlands with 0 production, do you? then again, the more I read this forum the more I'm convinced that people think coastal city = 1 tile land + 30 tiles water.

Nah, according to rules of Internet Hyperbole, every city on the coast if zero production and every city inland is nothing but hills.

 

[SirViss]

One thing I would suggest they do with Dido (or Phoenicia in general) is have the Settler ability to use water movement earlier. I would like it at Sailing but I think having it at Celestial Navigation would make a lot of sense. Get the Cothon, you can spam the settlers and have them immediately sail along the coast. I don't think that would be game breaking and I think it would be very thematic with them being early colonizer in the Med.

 

[kb27787]

Until you realize that if you built a city in a zone without production it's your fault entirely
You don't build cities in green flatlands with 0 production, do you? then again, the more I read this forum the more I'm convinced that people think coastal city = 1 tile land + 30 tiles water.

Until you realize that wandering 10 turns with your starting settler is quite a handicap... that, or settle on that crappy coast the game gave you.

And until you realize that the way the map script is... there will never be a green flatlands with 0 production (there will always be woods inevitably)... deserts on the other hand can qualify, but even they have hills and oases.

Also, the way the map script is, is that coastal civs get crappy spawns, even with balanced starts. Settle on the coast, then half your tiles as the game goes on, that you spend precious culture acquiring, are useless. The fact that no +production luxuries or bonus resources spawn on water just compounds the problem.

 

[Ziad]

One thing I would suggest they do with Dido (or Phoenicia in general) is have the Settler ability to use water movement earlier. I would like it at Sailing but I think having it at Celestial Navigation would make a lot of sense. Get the Cothon, you can spam the settlers and have them immediately sail along the coast. I don't think that would be game breaking and I think it would be very thematic with them being early colonizer in the Med.

I agree but I think the Maori will hold that niche.

 

[SharTeel]

Until you realize that wandering 10 turns with your starting settler is quite a handicap... that, or settle on that crappy coast the game gave you.

And until you realize that the way the map script is... there will never be a green flatlands with 0 production (there will always be woods inevitably)... deserts on the other hand can qualify, but even they have hills and oases.

Also, the way the map script is, is that coastal civs get crappy spawns, even with balanced starts. Settle on the coast, then half your tiles as the game goes on, that you spend precious culture acquiring, are useless. The fact that no +production luxuries or bonus resources spawn on water just compounds the problem.

You got a screenshot a few posts before that shows a coastal start with a coastal civ with plenty of production.
Different tiles have (and should) different yields. Sea tiles have food and gold, longer range traders and movement/los unhindered by terrain. You want production, you make damn well sure to found your city near some hills.

 

[Ziad]

Im making 200g a turn in my current game in the classical era haha. Im just buying everything.