diety large map strategies

[the argus]

I think I may have started on thread on this a few months ago but....
I am trying to beat the AI on deity, large map. Somehow I think that if I can accomplish this I will finally stop letting this game dominate my life. I'm almost there but even if I do it, I am left with the sinking feeling that once I do I will just want to see if I can do it faster. So since I'm apparently in for alot more work, I’m here to appeal for more general tips....

I play Tot, because that's what I have (got it on Ebay last spring for $4 plus shipping) and I play 7 civs, raging hordes. I let the game choose the climate and land mass and all that but tend to abandon games that put me on a small island to start or in a place with no good SSC location near the starting point.

I cheat less than I used to but still save after every turn and go back if I forget to rush build a wonder or forget to do some other huge thing I meant to do. Sometimes I'll go back when a battle result is ludicrous and I just don't have enough patience to deal or when a goody hut reveal barbs too many times.

Cheating aside, (and its mostly just to save time), I try to employ many of the strategies discussed on this website. I try to expand rapidly and ultimately follow a strategy similar to power democracy. I always build an SSC and my first two wonders are invariably Colossus and Hanging Gardens. Because of happiness issues, its better not to build the Pyramids in Deity, just build granaries when your cities are ready. I Go for Monarchy immediately then towards Trade, Philosophy, and Astronomy (for Copernicus for SSC). One I have Trade, I always build Marco Polo (for trading science, maps and contact in general). My understanding is that in ToT, its fruitless to try to use diplomacy to any large extent. Nevertheless I try to keep a good reputation and get an ally or two. Invariably though, I'm already far ahead by the time I build Marco's and make first contact that the other civs are receptive at best, usually hostile. Not easy to make alliances, harder to keep them as I stay far ahead. Because I’m doing SSC, its better not to do Great Library, you don’t need it if you have an SSC plus Marco Polo, and it screws up the order.

As far as later wonders, I build the science wonders for the SSC (always a prioirity) plus Leo's, Mike's and Bach's. Sometimes I’ll try to attain a wonder like Sun Tzu’s, Magellan’s or King Richard’s through conquest, but not usually. I might let the other civ's build Women's Suffrage because it doesn't seem worth it to me (even in Deity where you need happiness help) and Eiffel Tower is useless in ToT, but I like Darwin's (to stay very far ahead techwise) and I absolutely build Hoover's when the time comes.

Throughout I focus on constant expansion, (absolutely crucial, I've learned, on large map deity), and I focus on trade in building a solid empire. This website helped convince me of the advantages of trade and the micromanaging involved. It was hard overcoming the habit of wanting to just build marketplaces, libraries and banks, etc. Now I force myself to make extensvie efforts to get three awesome trade routes for my SSC and at least two for all other cities, even if they aren't the best trade routes. I try to take into account all the micromanaging issues that maximze trade. It definitely makes a huge difference and the ultimate answer to my entire post may be to just focus more on that. (Which is hard because I dont' have the luxury of much time to play the game)

Despite its obvious importance, it's hard to keep up with trade when you are trying to get important wonders, the whole world is against you and you've got to rush to explore, colonize and expand. I basically try to get far enough ahead and have a large enough civ and claim to continents that I can at some point shift my focus to all out war on the other civs. This usually doesn't happen, however, until post-industrialization and by then, the other civ's aren’t that far behind techwise. They catch up because they all ally themselves against me, trade techs and are too far spread around the large map for me to get around to conquering them all fast enough. Along the way I might be able to eliminate one or even two of them, but there are usually at least three who are allied against me, sharing techs and attacking me on all fronts. Ultimately, I can get mobile warfare, veteran spies, switch to fundy and start taking everyone out, but again, its a struggle when everyone is against you, the map is so big and they aren't far behind. They usually succeed in getting at least one of my cites, stealing tactics or worse, mobile warfare and now I’m on the defensive in some places.

So this is an appeal for general tips to help me develop faster on a large map, and conquer faster. (or suppress the AI civs so I can go the space route) Probably I should practice more with trade on lower levels, cheat less, and work my way up. But perhaps there are some other big pieces I'm missing.

Plus these questions: I hear stories of people winning long before industrialization. I’m sure on the lower levels I could do that too. But does anyone ever win on large map deity before industrialization? Or even before mobile warfare? Or even before say 1950? Is that even feasible or should I just go the spaceship route (which seems easier perhaps) Also, would better use of diplomacy on a non-Tot version make a big difference for me (so I'm not fighting everyone at once for the whole game)?

Lastly, random question related to diplomacy I'm sure this has been answered, discussed: After a certain point in the game, Civ's have their troops in my territory and when I meet with them I don't have the option of demanding tribute or insisting they withdraw, even if we have a peace treaty. It sucks because in Dem or Rep I can't start a war (reputation aside) and so I have to wait for them to break the peacr by bringing two catapults right up to my cities, (after occupying some of my best squares for seeral turns) and then they take out my musketeers or riflemen behind city walls (which is a damn travesty). I fight back, take one of their cities, my stupid ass senate makes a cease fire or peace treaty and the process repeats itself. Sigh. Is this a ToT thing or is it universal to Civ2?

 

[HMonster]

If their troops are in your area, why not just bribe them? They should be fairly cheap as they're so far from their own capital. That way you gain a unit, and clear a square in one go...assuming they arent in democracy of course.

 

[ElephantU]

more lunchbreak commentary - beware...

I am trying to beat the AI on deity, large map. Somehow I think that if I can accomplish this I will finally stop letting this game dominate my life.

I play Tot, because that's what I have (got it on Ebay last spring for $4 plus shipping) and I play 7 civs, raging hordes. I let the game choose the climate and land mass and all that but tend to abandon games that put me on a small island to start or in a place with no good SSC location near the starting point.

ToT and MGE have more sensitive AI players than the old Classic version. This mostly affects things when you are trying to make long-term alliances for One City Challenge or spaceship attempts.

Give the small islands a try. They require a different set of strategies but have some advantages as well.

I cheat less than I used to but still save after every turn and go back if I forget to rush build a wonder or forget to do some other huge thing I meant to do. Sometimes I'll go back when a battle result is ludicrous and I just don't have enough patience to deal or when a goody hut reveal barbs too many times.

Try to get out of the cheating habit - learn to deal with unexpected events, pad you plans a bit for runs of bad luck. It's a good life lesson as well...

I Go for Monarchy immediately then towards Trade, Philosophy, and Astronomy (for Copernicus for SSC). One I have Trade, I always build Marco Polo (for trading science, maps and contact in general). My understanding is that in ToT, its fruitless to try to use diplomacy to any large extent. Nevertheless I try to keep a good reputation and get an ally or two. Invariably though, I'm already far ahead by the time I build Marco's and make first contact that the other civs are receptive at best, usually hostile.

Try to fit Republic in as early as you can, maybe around the time of Michelangelo's if you make a bee-line for that. I often try to get MarcoPolo first, well before the 1000BC mark. If you are on a large continent don't wait - send out a few Horse or Dips and be nice. The goal is to get in touch before they get in touch with each other.

As far as later wonders, I build the science wonders for the SSC (always a prioirity) plus Leo's, Mike's and Bach's. Sometimes I’ll try to attain a wonder like Sun Tzu’s, Magellan’s or King Richard’s through conquest, but not usually.

Magellan's is definitely worth it on a large map; the rest are toss-ups (but I favor SunTzu if I'm doing major conquest - it even gives ships Vet status in battle).

Throughout I focus on constant expansion, (absolutely crucial, I've learned, on large map deity), and I focus on trade in building a solid empire.

Particularly at Deity level, expansion must be tempered with improved government and expanded economy to deal with happiness issues. More citizens become unhappy, even in established cities, as you add more new cities. Plus corruption and waste increase as cities are built further from the capital. At Deity level you must put happiness issues at the top of the priority list.

This website helped convince me of the advantages of trade and the micromanaging involved.

Despite its obvious importance, it's hard to keep up with trade when you are trying to get important wonders, the whole world is against you and you've got to rush to explore, colonize and expand.

That's what makes this game so much fun...

I basically try to get far enough ahead and have a large enough civ and claim to continents that I can at some point shift my focus to all out war on the other civs. This usually doesn't happen, however, until post-industrialization and by then, the other civ's aren’t that far behind techwise. They catch up because they all ally themselves against me, trade techs and are too far spread around the large map for me to get around to conquering them all fast enough.

Read Peaster's Early Conquest Guide for some tips on making war early. It is not designed for a spaceship victory, but does permit much earlier reductions of the AI threat. In general, though, a good empire should be accelerating in tech progress rather than stagnating and allowing the AI to catch up. Once Newton's is in place you should be down to a tech every 1-2 turns, and with SuperHighways you should be doing a tech per turn or better. If not you need to focus more on turning trade into research.

So this is an appeal for general tips to help me develop faster on a large map, and conquer faster. (or suppress the AI civs so I can go the space route) Probably I should practice more with trade on lower levels, cheat less, and work my way up.

Your first idea there sounds the best. But also study and understand Solo's Early Landing Guide and Peaster's Early Conquest Guide, and take a look at my Tips and Tricks for New Players as well (you should know most of that already). Another good read is Samson's Calculating Caravan and Freight Delivery Payments.

Plus these questions: I hear stories of people winning long before industrialization. I’m sure on the lower levels I could do that too. But does anyone ever win on large map deity before industrialization? Or even before mobile warfare? Or even before say 1950? Is that even feasible or should I just go the spaceship route (which seems easier perhaps)?

Take a look at some of the Spoiler threads in the Game Of The Month forum. Lots of players are finishing conquest before industrialization, even on large maps. Not many are then switching over to a spaceship game, though, so if that is your goal you need to modify the strategies some to restore SSC/STC and more research focus.

Lastly, random question related to diplomacy I'm sure this has been answered, discussed: After a certain point in the game, Civ's have their troops in my territory and when I meet with them I don't have the option of demanding tribute or insisting they withdraw, even if we have a peace treaty. It sucks because in Dem or Rep I can't start a war (reputation aside) and so I have to wait for them to break the peacr by bringing two catapults right up to my cities, (after occupying some of my best squares for seeral turns) and then they take out my musketeers or riflemen behind city walls (which is a damn travesty). I fight back, take one of their cities, my stupid ass senate makes a cease fire or peace treaty and the process repeats itself. Sigh. Is this a ToT thing or is it universal to Civ2?

You are not clear on exactly what is going on, but it sounds like a mix between Cease Fire and Alliance issues. In Rep or Dem you do have more limited diplomatic options, such as no tribute demands. During Cease Fire units can intrude, so you need to station your own units to block them via ZOC or a toe-to-toe wall. An Alliance allows the other guy to walk all over your territory, but they don't block your use of the terrain. Do not permit an Alliance to go on with someone you suspect will sneak-attack you soon. Switch your government temporarily if necessary in order to demand they leave and keep the Senate from interfering. But you should not be getting to that point if you keep allied civs buttered up or properly plan the annihilation campaign when the time comes. Just keep a single Purple city around as a pet so you can still launch a spaceship.

 

[the argus]

Thanks for the replies so far. I should clarify. I'm really not interested in the spaceship route, though maybe some day. Also I do make Monotheism an early prioirty (once I've built Marco's I'm all about getting Astoronmy, Invention and Monothesim) So I build Copernicus, switch to Republic as soon as I get Mike's and then basically to Demo as soon as I get Bach's, though sometimes sooner.

And yes it sounds like you agree I jsut need to keep working on trade and micromanaging (less fun in my book, but I can learn to love it, especially the results).

Lastly, I didn't realize the basic fact that you cant demand tribute in dem or rep. i very rarely make use of fortifications or station troops outside my citiies. And I need to have more diplomats and spies around for bribing. Thanks for the tips.