Different Depictions Of Existing Civs

[Wingednosering]

Title says it all. What different representation would you like to see for any civ has been featured in the franchise so far?

I'll start us off:

Greece - In Civ VI they've shown the less militaristic and more governmentally minded side of Greece, but there's still no acknowledgement of their wonder building capability. If ever there should be a wonder building civ, it's Greece.

Mongols - Always represented with pure military bonuses. That's fair for their start, but they were also fair rulers that incorporated a lot of the science and culture of the nations they ruled over. They didn't just butcher everybody.

Japan - For some reason, they are usually represented as militaristic, when they actually have a rich, unique culture that should be celebrated. Japan had the most advanced firearms in the world at one point and had them all destroyed because it went against the Bushido code. The spread of anime is probably the closest thing I've seen to a real life cultural victory (I guess American cinema as well).

Edited more into first post:

Russia and America - Have either of them ever been Science oriented in a Civ game? I actually can't remember. Given that the Space Race victory was designed based off of their very real race to the moon, it's a strange choice to never have either of them excel at it.

Amrunril

Persia - "Cities you capture retain unique any unique infrastructure and the ability to construct the original founder's unique infrastructure. (An ability inspired by Persia's reputation for (comparative) cultural tolerance in conquered regions."

Sumer - "Founding a city on a river automatically constructs farms on claimed tiles also adjacent to that river. (A Sumerian ability based on Sumer's early development of agriculture instead of on Gilgamesh.)"

Magma_Dragoon

England - "I'd like to see England get some kind of bonus to joint wars or a unique ability to bribe others into war to represent their 500 pursuing the balance of power foreign policy. That combined with the dockyard and naval UU would be a fairly accurate representation of England. The agricultural and industrial revolutions started there as well, made possible by English intellectual property laws which made sharing ideas and technology that improved economic productivity profitable, instead of encouraging inventors to guard their advantageous secretscarefully, and an aristocracy obsessed withincreasing economic productivity of their lands."

 

[Hrothbern]

Title says it all. What different representation would you like to see for any civ has been featured in the franchise so far?

I'll start us off:

Greece - In Civ VI they've shown the less militaristic and more governmentally minded side of Greece, but there's still no acknowledgement of their wonder building capability. If ever there should be a wonder building civ, it's Greece.

To start with, CIV could add the statue of Zeus sitting on a Cedar throne with Gold, Ebony and Ivory and more than 40 feet high.
That was one of the 7 ancient (Greek) world wonders.

EDIT
And with all the demi-Gods in Zeus his offspring, the bonus could be that any military unit that has two promotions gets two other promotions for free.

 

[Wingednosering]

That was one of the 7 ancient (Greek) world wonders.

The original 'Seven Wonders of the Ancient World' consisted of four from Greece (Mausoleum at Halicarnassus, Temple of Artemis, Statue of Zeus and the Colossus of Rhodes), one from the Ptolemy (Lighthouse of Alexandria), one from Egypt (Pyramids of Giza) and one from Babylon (Hanging Gardens). Civ VI only actually contains four of these (five with DLC I think?). Civ V had them all with the DLC, I believe.

The Pyramids of Giza are the only one of those wonders still standing today.

 

[Hrothbern]

The original 'Seven Wonders of the Ancient World' consisted of four from Greece (Mausoleum at Halicarnassus, Temple of Artemis, Statue of Zeus and the Colossus of Rhodes), one from the Ptolemy (Lighthouse of Alexandria), one from Egypt (Pyramids of Giza) and one from Babylon (Hanging Gardens). Civ VI only actually contains four of these (five with DLC I think?). Civ V had them all with the DLC, I believe.

The Pyramids of Giza are the only one of those wonders still standing today.

Did not know that in the CIV V DLC they were all there.
Thanks

 

[Scaramanga]

The mongols certainly did more butchering than most, and if you include helping spread black death west they were hugely responsible for loss of life.

That said, I think the representations in 6 are just perfect, everyone fits into one another like puzzle pieces on an earth map.

 

[Leyrann]

The mongols certainly did more butchering than most, and if you include helping spread black death west they were hugely responsible for loss of life.

That said, I think the representations in 6 are just perfect, everyone fits into one another like puzzle pieces on an earth map.

Was the Black Death not 100 years later than the mongols? The first (and biggest) outbreak of the Black Death started in 1347 in Florence or Genoa if I remember correctly. Some North-Italian city-state with a lot of trade. (I'm talking about European Black Death, just to be clear, idk how it was in other parts of the world)

 

[liv]

I do not really care about how England is in the current variety.
It is like Victoria is a bit time synced in the past and not really representing 19th century Britain.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Was the Black Death not 100 years later than the mongols? The first (and biggest) outbreak of the Black Death started in 1347 in Florence or Genoa if I remember correctly. Some North-Italian city-state with a lot of trade. (I'm talking about European Black Death, just to be clear, idk how it was in other parts of the world)

In 1347, the Mongols (Golden Horde) besieged Kaffa, a Genovese colony in the Crimea. They catapulted infected bodies into the settlement and helped kickstart the Black Death in Europe.

 

[UWHabs]

Agreed re: Greece's wonder-building, when as mentioned they do have a ton of the old wonders. Also feels weird that China has the builder charges to build ancient era wonders when the Terracotta Army is the only of those wonders that actually is Chinese, and is the easiest of them all to build. To me, it feels like Greece should have that trait to simulate them dominating the early wonders, but not necessarily being involved in building as many of the more modern wonders.

To me, the ones that always need the most changes are the old huge empires. No way can 1 leader represent all the thousands of years of Indian history; same with civs like China.

Also, America never really seems to be an overly militaristic civ, where US history has certainly been a major player in a lot of conflicts. I mean, you can argue that it's not necessarily the US who was the instigator of the wars, but sometimes it feels like they deserve the "shared experience from common war" trait more than Sumeria.

Overall, though, I think they do a good job with almost civ to essentially have the main parts of their traits reflect one era of their history, with perhaps a secondary trait or unit for a different period. Japan has the mix of Samurai and Divine Wind to represent their early era, with the Meiji Restoration and the Electronics Factory representing the more modern-day Japan. They don't go 100% one way or the other with them, but that's good because it helps keep multiple victory paths open.

 

[Leyrann]

In 1347, the Mongols (Golden Horde) besieged Kaffa, a Genovese colony in the Crimea. They catapulted infected bodies into the settlement and helped kickstart the Black Death in Europe.

My bad, then. I remembered that the Black Death entered Genoa by a ship which had an ill crew, but I didn't remember where the ship came from; that'll have been Kaffa. When you mentioned that I vaguely remembered something about the ship coming from a besieged city.

 

[liv]

My bad, then. I remembered that the Black Death entered Genoa by a ship which had an ill crew, but I didn't remember where the ship came from; that'll have been Kaffa. When you mentioned that I vaguely remembered something about the ship coming from a besieged city.

While the mongols may have used biological warfare it is largely still believed that the plague came to Italy by traders independent of that episode and so what happened there was not really the reason the plague spread to Europe.

But on the topic of Mongols I think that they should be nothing but conquerors. They were good at it.

 

[The Kingmaker]

The plague was so virulent, it was bound to spread to Europe eventually.

The Horde's biological warfare certainly wasn't helpful though.

 

[Scaramanga]

The point is that the pax mongolica may have facilitated trade between east and west but it also spread black death regardless of the actual episode that was the catalyst.

I agree with the mongol conquest primacy in spite of Macedon and Scythia (and mamluks to a lesser degree) but it would be interesting if they had a land trader enhancement like further range or immunity from pillaging. I don't think the genghis Khan GG will be discarded so maybe kublai khan.

 

[Depravo]

I haven't read about it for years but is it still assumed the Great Plague's initial outbreak was somewhere in the Volga basin?

 

[Hrothbern]

I haven't read about it for years but is it still assumed the Great Plague's initial outbreak was somewhere in the Volga basin?

this is a nice map of supposed trail starting in Crimea, the deep purple fits well to the Genoa trade posts:

 

[Amrunril]

Perhaps this discussion should be moved to Ideas and Suggestions? I've actually thought of a lot of these, mostly before the actual abilities were announced. Here are some that I'd prefer over the actual abilities:

Persia: Cities you capture retain unique any unique infrastructure and the ability to construct the original founder's unique infrastructure. (An ability inspired by Persia's reputation for (comparative) cultural tolerance in conquered regions.

Spain: You receive the founder bonus of any religion followed by a majority of your cities. If you founded the religion, you gain double the usual bonus. (This would give Spain an incentive to aggressively proselytize, and would actually fit well with the existing leader bonus.)

Sumer: Founding a city on a river automatically constructs farms on claimed tiles also adjacent to that river. (A Sumerian ability based on Sumer's early development of agriculture instead of on Gilgamesh.)

 

[Depravo]

this is a nice map of supposed trail starting in Crimea, the deep purple fits well to the Genoa trade posts:

The source must have been somewhere in the backcountry though. Those people thrown as plague corpses over the walls of Kaffa probably caught it somewhere further in.

 

[Cerilis]

this is a nice map of supposed trail starting in Crimea, the deep purple fits well to the Genoa trade posts:

Heh, what kind of god did Milan pray to to be left out?

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

I'd like to see England get some kind of bonus to joint wars or a unique ability to bribe others into war to represent their 500 pursuing the balance of power foreign policy. That combined with the dockyard and naval UU would be a fairly accurate representation of England. The agricultural and industrial revolutions started there as well, made possible by English intellectual property laws which made sharing ideas and technology that improved economic productivity profitable, instead of encouraging inventors to guard their advantageous secrets carefully, and an aristocracy obsessed with increasing economic productivity of their lands. But the massive economic gains associated with those events would likely render England rediculously overpowered.

Qin Shi Huang's brutal penal labor system and obsession with a big dumb wall built along the ridges of mountains nobody wanted to cross anyway is well represented by his ability. I think the eureka bonuses are trying it represent ancient Chinese ingenuity and all that neat stuff they invented, which I don't believe actually exists. Consider that China is like the size of Europe and it's subtropical arable land has historically supported a huge population. If we tallied all the things uniquely invented in Europe and the Mediterranean vs China over a given period of time, taking plagues, wars, and economic depressions into account, I don't think the Chinese would stand out as the legendary inventors many westerners believe them to be. They could do with a new UA but I don't know enough about China to say what it should be. Maybe something about drinking mercury :^)

 

[Wingednosering]

Perhaps this discussion should be moved to Ideas and Suggestions?

I like a lot of your ideas, soecifically the Sumerian one. I wasn't sure which forum to post this in. If it's betterboff in suggestions then feel free to have it moved.

Regarding the Mongols, I agree that they should be militaristic, but I'd like to see something that opens them up to other victories and represents the way they ruled after conquering. Even something as simple as "Capturing a city provides culture and science." would be a step up in my opinion.

For the record, I think Civ VI is the best yet for civ representation. I also acknowledge that it's tough to sum up thousands of years of history in a handful game bonuses. Something is bound to get left out every time.

Seems like Greece getting a wonder bonus is a pretty popular idea. Nobody else has commented on Anime though. Its spread has been so insanely influential, I'm surprised we haven't at least had a subtle reference to it in a Civ game. There's an argument to be made for the gaming culture of moderm Japan as well.

Added another pair to the OP:

Russia and America - Have either of them ever been Science oriented in a Civ game? I actually can't remember. Given that the Space Race victory was designed based off of their very real race to the moon, it's a strange choice to never have either of them excel at it.